Modernizing the Wheel of Time

[Gnoman]

Indeed - between the Trolloc Wars and now, the Friends of the Dark was little more than a cool club.

For some, even many. The most developed Darkfriends we see were nothing of the sort - they've been dedicated servents of Shai'tan for decades, with reasons that range from the banal to the the foolish but understandable. There's a few times when major characters remember Darkfriends they have known, who were doing great deeds of evil.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ramza00
Egwene has empathy, but she is also the Kai Winn [Adami] of the series.

Now I feel like Captain America, because I got that reference.

Originally Posted by Ramza00
…but due to the success of the Deadpool movies probably made the new 52 reconsider how they do Lobo in order to try to make him more popular.

There’s an irony here, because as I recall Deadpool was created as essentially Marvel’s version of Lobo, back when Lobo was new and popular.

[The Glyphstone]

Now I feel like Captain America, because I got that reference.



There’s an irony here, because as I recall Deadpool was created as essentially Marvel’s version of Lobo, back when Lobo was new and popular.

I thought Deadpool was created to be a copycat of Deathstroke.

[Kitten Champion]

I thought Deadpool was created to be a copycat of Deathstroke.

What would give you that impression? That he looks nearly identical, uses the same weapons, or that his writer - after seeing Liefeld's design for the first time - immediately realized that he was Deathstroke from Teen Titans and gave him the name Wade Wilson?

That's just silly.

More importantly, Lobo was just a parody of Wolverine. Thus the space biking, cigar chewing, and the massive sideburns.

[Palanan]

I'm just going off my memories at the time. Deadpool appeared not long after Lobo, and copied his speech patterns and behavior in ways that seemed quite deliberate.

[Psyren]

For some, even many. The most developed Darkfriends we see were nothing of the sort - they've been dedicated servents of Shai'tan for decades, with reasons that range from the banal to the the foolish but understandable. There's a few times when major characters remember Darkfriends they have known, who were doing great deeds of evil.

I'm not sure most of them really knew what "dedicated servant of Shai'tan" truly meant though. Certainly none of them anticipated Padan Fain being able to detect and control them (or at least to overpower the Myrddraal that was relaying their orders, as he did in TGH). And nobody, not even the Chosen, anticipated Shaidar Haran. It's emblematic of the trope of evil being its own worst enemy ("foul against vile" as Moiraine coined it), but they were well and truly stuck since their oaths are what allowed the Shadow to randomly find them.

I did like the idea that Rand (especially after he became "Zen-Rand") could free them from their connection to the Dark One, and I wish the books had explored that more. His ability to do so was foreshadowed nicely with Asmodean - but why is there a messianic figure known as a "Dragon" at all? Where did the name come from - clearly dragons, or at least stories about dragons, must have existed at some point, but nobody in any of the ages seemed to know what one was except the poor unknowns who made his banner and the Rhuidean ter'angreal. There's a lot of lore that is left untapped that I hope the show expands on at least a little.

[Seppl]

There's a lot of lore that is left untapped that I hope the show expands on at least a little.

Please, no!
The whole point of the worldbuilding in WoT is that it invokes a sense of familiarity for us, the readers/viewers, while for the people in Randland it is just ancient forgotten legends. And vice versa the adventures of Rand and friends being the possible source of our own ancients legends. Please don't spoil that by overexplaining it. Mysteries in worldbuilding are best left to the readers imagination.

[Lord Raziere]

Please, no!
The whole point of the worldbuilding in WoT is that it invokes a sense of familiarity for us, the readers/viewers, while for the people in Randland it is just ancient forgotten legends. And vice versa the adventures of Rand and friends being the possible source of our own ancients legends. Please don't spoil that by overexplaining it. Mysteries in worldbuilding are best left to the readers imagination.

Too late its in the hands of people who make TV and movies: the places where subtlety goes to die.

[Psyren]

I don't think adding a little more means dampening the mystery. TAR for example touches all possible worlds (which is why dreams can be so weird.) The showrunners can tuck all kinds of easter eggs and extras into the background when the characters are there as in-jokes and references for us, the audience, that completely go over the cast's heads.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
The showrunners can tuck all kinds of easter eggs and extras into the background when the characters are there as in-jokes and references for us, the audience, that completely go over the cast's heads.

I think you're selling the cast short here. No reason why some of them couldn't read the books.

One of the reasons Christopher Lee enjoyed playing Saruman was because he made a habit of reading LoTR once every year if possible.

[Rynjin]

I just want to see them forget to edit out a Starbucks cup like GoT did a few times and then have the creators pass it off as an easter egg.

"No, you see, that is a reusable mug that is actually a super powerful Sa'Angreal".

[Misery Esquire]

I just want to see them forget to edit out a Starbucks cup like GoT did a few times and then have the creators pass it off as an easter egg.

"No, you see, that is a reusable mug that is actually a super powerful Sa'Angreal".

Sometime in the Third Age, White Tower ;

1. "Why is this Angreal so stupid shaped?"
2. "We cannot say for certain, the Age of Legends was a mysterious time full of mystics and legends. Questioning them is to question all history, and the reasons behind their choices are esoteric. A thousand years' study has revealed little of their philosophy, or how the mass usage of the One Power effected their societies."

Meantime, in AoL ;

1. "Hey, I found about a million of these weird cups in the ground out back."
2. "Neat. Want to make one a powerful magic booster? It'll be hilarious."
1. "Of course!"

[Ramza00]

Sometime in the Third Age, White Tower ;

1. "Why is this Angreal so stupid shaped?"
2. "We cannot say for certain, the Age of Legends was a mysterious time full of mystics and legends. Questioning them is to question all history, and the reasons behind their choices are esoteric. A thousand years' study has revealed little of their philosophy, or how the mass usage of the One Power effected their societies."

Meantime, in AoL ;

1. "Hey, I found about a million of these weird cups in the ground out back."
2. "Neat. Want to make one a powerful magic booster? It'll be hilarious."
1. "Of course!"

Funko POP(s)!

[Zalabim]

Funko POP(s)!

That's a Choedan Kal access key.

[Psyren]

I think you're selling the cast short here. No reason why some of them couldn't read the books.

One of the reasons Christopher Lee enjoyed playing Saruman was because he made a habit of reading LoTR once every year if possible.

By "cast" I meant the characters within the story, not the actors playing them.

I just want to see them forget to edit out a Starbucks cup like GoT did a few times and then have the creators pass it off as an easter egg.

"No, you see, that is a reusable mug that is actually a super powerful Sa'Angreal".

A ter'angreal surely - opposite effect to the wooden hedgehog perhaps, or bars access to TAR

That's a Choedan Kal access key.

There ARE supposed to be a bunch of them knocking about the place and they're all useless now, so it's a fitting analogy.

[Seppl]

I don't think adding a little more means dampening the mystery. TAR for example touches all possible worlds (which is why dreams can be so weird.) The showrunners can tuck all kinds of easter eggs and extras into the background when the characters are there as in-jokes and references for us, the audience, that completely go over the cast's heads.

Big difference between random easter eggs that the viewer can pick up on, and taking the viewer by the hand and explaining the joke to them. Quite the opposite actually. There are already plenty things like a Starbucks cup in the original. Remember the Mercedes star in the museum? No need to explicitly show how it ended up there. This is the kind of random mystery that makes the world fun.

If, on the other hand, you start explaining exactly how the concept of a "Dragon" got to be known in Randland, then you take away one of those random mysteries. We, the reader, already know what a Dragon is and can see that there are parallels to the Dragon in WoT. Or is it the other way around and our concept of a Dragon is actually an echo from the Third Age? We do not know and it is fun to imagine it. If you take us by the hand and give a canon explanation it can only be worse than the many possibilities in our imagination.

That is not to say that the author does not need to know the explanations themselves, even if they do not explain everything to the reader. In a story like WoT, that is about a world-spanning conflict with a lot of politics, it is important that the history of the world is known and consistent. Though in this particular case, the word "dragon" is not important enough to the overall story to warrant that kind of attention. It is explained well enough by the overarching concept of the Pattern of the Wheel.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
By "cast" I meant the characters within the story, not the actors playing them.

If you’re discussing a TV adaptation, then “cast” refers to the actors rather than the characters. “Cast and characters” is a common phrase which distinguishes the two.

[Psyren]

If you’re discussing a TV adaptation, then “cast” refers to the actors rather than the characters. “Cast and characters” is a common phrase which distinguishes the two.

Okay, thanks.

Big difference between random easter eggs that the viewer can pick up on, and taking the viewer by the hand and explaining the joke to them. Quite the opposite actually. There are already plenty things like a Starbucks cup in the original. Remember the Mercedes star in the museum? No need to explicitly show how it ended up there. This is the kind of random mystery that makes the world fun.

I didn't say anything about tracing the origins of the Mercedes star Besides, Lews Therin causing Rand to dream of cars and planes in past ages in Lord of Chaos are probably enough for that anyway.

If, on the other hand, you start explaining exactly how the concept of a "Dragon" got to be known in Randland, then you take away one of those random mysteries. We, the reader, already know what a Dragon is and can see that there are parallels to the Dragon in WoT. Or is it the other way around and our concept of a Dragon is actually an echo from the Third Age? We do not know and it is fun to imagine it. If you take us by the hand and give a canon explanation it can only be worse than the many possibilities in our imagination.

I'm not talking about explaining to the audience what dragons are either. I'm only wondering what caused this specific savior figure to be considered to be one. Other than his banner and the markings on his arms, there's nothing particularly dragony about Rand, and those are clearly post-hoc emblems that Lews or a past "Dragon" adopted at some point.

[Traab]

Okay, thanks.



I didn't say anything about tracing the origins of the Mercedes star Besides, Lews Therin causing Rand to dream of cars and planes in past ages in Lord of Chaos are probably enough for that anyway.



I'm not talking about explaining to the audience what dragons are either. I'm only wondering what caused this specific savior figure to be considered to be one. Other than his banner and the markings on his arms, there's nothing particularly dragony about Rand, and those are clearly post-hoc emblems that Lews or a past "Dragon" adopted at some point.

I mean, were dragons unknown during the age of legends when lews was around? If so that explains why he would have that as a title and banner. And it being his title is why it remains remembered even if the meaning behind it wasnt. Especially if it was a fairly standard event for false dragons to name themselves. So that title remains throughout the ages even as its meaning fades.

[Psyren]

I mean, were dragons unknown during the age of legends when lews was around? If so that explains why he would have that as a title and banner. And it being his title is why it remains remembered even if the meaning behind it wasnt. Especially if it was a fairly standard event for false dragons to name themselves. So that title remains throughout the ages even as its meaning fades.

The books don't elaborate on what people knew about them. Certainly whoever wrote the Karaethon Cycle knew that the creature on the banner was a "dragon", but not how they knew, or what that creature had to do with being the Creator's chosen one.

[Traab]

Then isnt it entirely possible that the dragon is just the title/emblem lews therin picked for himself and thus thats whats associated with him and this so called chosen one thing? After all, the prophecy isnt about actual dragons its about a guy known as THE Dragon being reborn, and all you need to know is thats lews theirn telamon and this is what his symbol looked like. If his name gets passed down through legend, there is no reason his "symbol" wouldnt be as well. You dont need to know what a dragon is beyond it being a symbol of the chosen one.

[tiornys]

To quote the opening lines of every book: "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."

We know that our current age is in the "fade to myth" phase of this cycle during the Third Age. In our current age, we have all sorts of stories about dragons, and the specific type of dragon that we see in WoT is rather prominent in at least one of today's cultures. So, during the Age of Legends--a full age before the Third Age--it is reasonable to infer they still remembered, on some mythical level, the dragons that LTT adopted as his symbol. (We might also speculate that in the overall WoT cosmology, there was an age before ours where dragons were real, but there's not much evidence to go on here.)

[Ramza00]

Remember we do not need Dragons to actually exist in the 2nd age, or the 1st age or any of the 7 main ages.

Symbols can be invented whole cloth without a direct 1:1 inspiration. Symbols exist due to mix and matching and they emerge **some of the time** and other times symbols are 1:1 copies either faithful or purposefully not faithful (such as using a symbol to do mockery such as the "idiot tiger" paintings in Korean culture.)

-----

Explaining the origin of symbols in stories often "deflate" the fun of it. Take for example the Solo movie. If you are going to do a Solo prequel, just make it fun and stop trying to explain all the myths and "mystique" with the character. Introduce new stories that we were not told about and do not explain all those references and one liners that were purposefully cryptic in the original. Mystery and Veneration can be part of the fun.

[Psyren]

To quote the opening lines of every book: "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."

We know that our current age is in the "fade to myth" phase of this cycle during the Third Age. In our current age, we have all sorts of stories about dragons, and the specific type of dragon that we see in WoT is rather prominent in at least one of today's cultures. So, during the Age of Legends--a full age before the Third Age--it is reasonable to infer they still remembered, on some mythical level, the dragons that LTT adopted as his symbol. (We might also speculate that in the overall WoT cosmology, there was an age before ours where dragons were real, but there's not much evidence to go on here.)

Then isnt it entirely possible that the dragon is just the title/emblem lews therin picked for himself and thus thats whats associated with him and this so called chosen one thing? After all, the prophecy isnt about actual dragons its about a guy known as THE Dragon being reborn, and all you need to know is thats lews theirn telamon and this is what his symbol looked like. If his name gets passed down through legend, there is no reason his "symbol" wouldnt be as well. You dont need to know what a dragon is beyond it being a symbol of the chosen one.

Once again - I'm not asking "what (are dragons)," so much as "why (is one is the symbol for the Creator's Chosen One)". He could have called himself The Lion, The Angel, The Sword, The Tree or just about any other heraldic symbol. And it's implied that this title has existed far longer than Lews Therin too - he is one of the Four Constants in this setting after all.

Explaining the origin of symbols in stories often "deflate" the fun of it.

But it can be good worldbuilding too. Like Korra taking us to the distant past to explain how and why the Avatar is the "bridge to the spirit world". Or the Doom remake explaining who the Doomguy is. Any storytelling can be done badly or done well.

[Traab]

Because being Lews Therin "The Hamster" Telemon is far less impressive than Dragon. There doesnt necessarily have to be a story behind it. For all we know as a kid growing up lews had terrible breath and the kids called him dragon breath and it kinda stuck. Or less absurd he got the name because he was absurdly powerful and destructive in a fight, like a dragon, so the people gave him that title. There doesnt need to be some sort of mystical significance to his nickname, its probably just like Matt and his laundry list of current nicknames.

The Fox that makes the Ravens fly
The Trickster
Prince of the Ravens
Raven Lord
Lord of Luck
Marshal General
Son of Battles
Gambler
Lord Crimson
One-Eyed Fool
Battle Lord
Horn Sounder (formerly)
Horn Blower
Tylin's Toy

You tend to pick them up as you go if you are living an interesting life.

[InvisibleBison]

Once again - I'm not asking "what (are dragons)," so much as "why (is one is the symbol for the Creator's Chosen One)". He could have called himself The Lion, The Angel, The Sword, The Tree or just about any other heraldic symbol. And it's implied that this title has existed far longer than Lews Therin too - he is one of the Four Constants in this setting after all.

If I recall correctly, the title Dragon was bestowed upon Lews Therin by the people of the Age of Legends. Why they did that is unclear, of course, but presumably the term meant something to them.

[Psyren]

There doesnt need to be some sort of mystical significance to his nickname, its probably just like Matt and his laundry list of current nicknames.

You tend to pick them up as you go if you are living an interesting life.

All of Mat's names came from things that exist in his world though.

If I recall correctly, the title Dragon was bestowed upon Lews Therin by the people of the Age of Legends. Why they did that is unclear, of course, but presumably the term meant something to them.

My understanding is that they bestowed it on him because they realized he was the Creator's Chosen, and that was a title he had used in a previous incarnation. I could be wrong though, and the AoL came up with it themselves. (The Creator itself/themself doesn't use the term though, referring to him only as "CHOSEN ONE" in TEOtW)

I agree it's not vital, but my overall point is that Adaptation Expansion has been done before, and done well - so I'm curious whether they do any of it here.

[dancrilis]

All of Mat's names came from things that exist in his world though.

What makes you so sure that foxes exist but dragons don't?

[Psyren]

What makes you so sure that foxes exist but dragons don't?

Because nobody knew what the creature on the banner was. (Eventually they figured it out once he fulfilled the "twice and twice shall he be marked" bit of prophecy, but before then, the only exotic creatures anybody knew of came from Seanchan, and they didn't know what it was either.)

[Rodin]

Once again - I'm not asking "what (are dragons)," so much as "why (is one is the symbol for the Creator's Chosen One)". He could have called himself The Lion, The Angel, The Sword, The Tree or just about any other heraldic symbol. And it's implied that this title has existed far longer than Lews Therin too - he is one of the Four Constants in this setting after all.

Doesn't that answer your own question?

"The Dragon" became known as such at some point millennia ago. Some time prior to the Age of Legends there were dragons, and it became the emblem of "The Dragon". Or maybe a previous incarnation was Welsh and liked their flag. Maybe sometime millenia ago an explorer encountered the to'raken and drew an artistic depiction. That depiction grew popular and it became the Dragon's symbol.

There's no reason to assume that dragons exist. Heck, one of your proposed symbols doesn't exist in WoT - angels aren't a thing, or at least not that I can recall. So it makes exactly as much sense for him to be the fictional dragon as it does for him to be the fictional angel.

The broader point is that it doesn't matter. His symbol is something that was lost to antiquity. For all we know dragons used to be hamster-sized house pets and the name is an insult. Explaining where the name came from does nothing to improve the setting.

This is doubly true for a TV adaptation that's already going to be stripping tons of lore out of necessity. Adding additional exposition about irrelevant world details is self-defeating.