Modernizing the Wheel of Time

[Psyren]

This is doubly true for a TV adaptation that's already going to be stripping tons of lore out of necessity. Adding additional exposition about irrelevant world details is self-defeating.

I don't think a shot of a dragon flying around in one of Lews Therin's dreams would take up much time.

More to the point, I take issue with the implication that a tv adaptation never has room to add anything, that it should only be figuring out things to trim out. Even the earlier seasons of Game of Thrones (i.e. the good ones) that had a clear book trail to follow, found the time to add scenes that weren't present in the source material, and those scenes added to the work in my view.

[Ramza00]

I find adding any Dragon would be not noticed, or anti-climatic in a Bathos kind of way. Like a MCU quip, who remembers them, only the most diehard fans and even they forget 90% of them.

So I ask what does adding Dragon imagery to explain a mystery "add?" I see it as a brushstroke too many.

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I am not against adding things to a WOT tv series, I mentioned that earlier. But the things added need add meaning, and the meaning needs to be something the reader / viewer would not figure out unless it was added, and the reader experiences joy by this addition. If it something they could have figured out by themselves it triggers that anti-climax I was talking about earlier.

[Gnoman]

The easiest way to explain the title of Dragon is to look at how a dragon is depicted in the series - a legged serpent, with wings being added to them on a whim by some random guy. In a universe where one of the most prominent symbols -said to predate the Wheel Of Time itself in usage - is the Great Serpent.

The connection seems obvious.

[Psyren]

I am not against adding things to a WOT tv series, I mentioned that earlier. But the things added need add meaning, and the meaning needs to be something the reader / viewer would not figure out unless it was added, and the reader experiences joy by this addition. If it something they could have figured out by themselves it triggers that anti-climax I was talking about earlier.

Well sure, if the answer is just "I heard an ancient legend one time and these flying magic reptile things seem pretty rad, put one on my banner and call me Lord Awesome from now on" then I agree that would be pretty anticlimactic

The easiest way to explain the title of Dragon is to look at how a dragon is depicted in the series - a legged serpent, with wings being added to them on a whim by some random guy. In a universe where one of the most prominent symbols -said to predate the Wheel Of Time itself in usage - is the Great Serpent.

The connection seems obvious.

You'd think so, but the depictions of the Great Serpent (e.g. the Aes Sedai rings) and the figure on the Dragon Banner look nothing alike. If the dragon had been merely "Great Serpent + legs" the characters would have said as much.

[Rodin]

Well sure, if the answer is just "I heard an ancient legend one time and these flying magic reptile things seem pretty rad, put one on my banner and call me Lord Awesome from now on" then I agree that would be pretty anticlimactic

Again, this happens ALL THE TIME in real life. The emblem on the Scottish flag ain't a unicorn because Queen Mary rode one into battle.

[Kitten Champion]

My understanding is the Dragon is largely derived from it its philosophical association with Yin & Yang... which is generally quite intertwined into the universe's metaphysics. The Dragon is associated with masculine energies and was often taken by Emperors to represent themselves while the Phoenix (and thus flame and feather) have been generally feminine. The "Dragon Claw" and "Flame of Tar'Valon" actually being the constituent parts of the Yin & Yang symbol being the most flagrant in-universe reference.

Like with most things in Wheel of Time, the whole chicken or the egg dilemma is in full effect to blur where meaning comes from.

[Psyren]

Again, this happens ALL THE TIME in real life. The emblem on the Scottish flag ain't a unicorn because Queen Mary rode one into battle.

Sure, but we (a) have stories and fables about unicorns that persist to this day and (b) know what they look like when we see one even if they are purely fictional. Randland, or at least the 3rd Age and the AoL versions thereof, appear to have neither - hence my curiosity as far as Lews picking that as a symbol, if indeed he did.

(Also, I'm not aware of any fictional incarnation of Queen Mary where she is a universal constant and agent of her respective setting's creator - not that I'm familiar with all of them of course.)

[Seppl]

Sure, but we (a) have stories and fables about unicorns that persist to this day and (b) know what they look like when we see one even if they are purely fictional. Randland, or at least the 3rd Age and the AoL versions thereof, appear to have neither - hence my curiosity as far as Lews picking that as a symbol, if indeed he did.

Because the word "Dragon" in the Third Age is invariably linked to the most prominent person in the world? If there were legends of dragons in the Age of Legends, many of them would have been lost in the cataclysm. Whenever anyone spoke of The Dragon afterwards, they would mean Lews Therin and his banner because that was the most important event in all of recorded history (or at least in what was left of recorded history). People would not make up new legends about dragons during those times because The Dragon was a known historical person.

[Psyren]

I don't disagree that's the reason now, but "the Chosen One is called Dragon because Dragon is the name for the Chosen One" feels pretty circular.

Granted, Wheel of Time is all about circles, so if that's all I get then that's all I get. If they did expand on it though, I'd be pretty interested.

[Traab]

I don't disagree that's the reason now, but "the Chosen One is called Dragon because Dragon is the name for the Chosen One" feels pretty circular.

Granted, Wheel of Time is all about circles, so if that's all I get then that's all I get. If they did expand on it though, I'd be pretty interested.

I just dont think its likely to be anything more than "Dragons were cool mythical creatures during lews time, thats how he got that as a title, now ages later they are only known as his title and symbol."

Slight tangent, isnt it odd that virtually all cultures have dragons in their mythology in some form or another? Yeah the asian dragons are a different style than european which are different from african which are different from south american but the general gist remains. I could almost understand the whole zombie mythos being world wide, if in varying forms, because no matter your culture, death has always been a fascinating subject and the idea of scary monsters that are undead is a simple hop skip and jump, but DRAGONS?!

[tiornys]

Slight tangent, isnt it odd that virtually all cultures have dragons in their mythology in some form or another? Yeah the asian dragons are a different style than european which are different from african which are different from south american but the general gist remains. I could almost understand the whole zombie mythos being world wide, if in varying forms, because no matter your culture, death has always been a fascinating subject and the idea of scary monsters that are undead is a simple hop skip and jump, but DRAGONS?!

I favor the theory that dragon legends were inspired by dinosaur (and related giant avian/reptile) fossils.

[Traab]

I favor the theory that dragon legends were inspired by dinosaur (and related giant avian/reptile) fossils.

That is entirely possible. Some dude stumbles over a giant skull and decides to make up a story about how he "slayed" a terrible monster. "Must have been at least two score feet high and over 8 score long! Great leathery wings it had and it breathed a deadly fire! Dont you see the skull I brought back in that wagon?! Well, that's no ordinary beast! That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered reptile you ever set eyes on! Look, that monster's got a vicious streak a mile wide, it's a killer! I thought he would do me up a treat mate!"

[snowblizz]

Slight tangent, isnt it odd that virtually all cultures have dragons in their mythology in some form or another?

Not really, good ideas travel far. And humans by and large are the same. We have many similar fears and hangups. There are many more things "shared" as myths. Even without dipping our toes into the quagmire that's the Alternate History channel Ancient Alien insanity.



The WoT Dragon doesn't really require explanation as such, and yes circular logic actually works for WoT, it is the fundament of the series really. We don't require IRL any explanations as to why we have imagined beasts, so why should they? LTT or someone before him chose or got assigned a dragon becases *we* today know that dragons are big scary cool mythical monsters. Maybe it's the vestigial memory of people in our age watching Game of Thrones. Actually, that's now my headcanon. WoT is funny that way that this is a completely possible explanation. In series though it likely *is* a vestigial memory of the myth of St George, as such things form an underpinning for a lot of WoT.

Some things are not improved by trying to explain them. I would argue this is one of them. I wouldn't dig too deep into how come the Heroes of the Horn all seem to have names and forms the current WoT timeline knows. IIRC Arthur Hawkwing says it's not his first time aroudn the block, so why is he recognisable Arthur Hawkwing, maybe some earlier form is what got him into the club, at least that's what I'd gathered. We don't need to know everything about it all to know that when Hurin is told "sometimes our number is added to" that is a Big Deal (tm).

[Seppl]

Not really, good ideas travel far. And humans by and large are the same. We have many similar fears and hangups. There are many more things "shared" as myths.

Additionally, dragons are not a worldwide myth, but only in Afro-Eurasian cultures. You know, cultures that were in direct, albeit slow, cultural exchange.

(You can find snake and crocodile gods in other cultures. But counting those as dragons is really stretching an already thin concept. If any reptile counts as a dragon, then there is nothing left to the concept of dragon)

[Liquor Box]

Additionally, dragons are not a worldwide myth, but only in Afro-Eurasian cultures. You know, cultures that were in direct, albeit slow, cultural exchange.

(You can find snake and crocodile gods in other cultures. But counting those as dragons is really stretching an already thin concept. If any reptile counts as a dragon, then there is nothing left to the concept of dragon)

That's not entirely true:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piasa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_panther

Isn't the idea that people the idea of dragons came from dinosaur fossils, and therefore it is not surprising that they are widespread?

[Traab]

Additionally, dragons are not a worldwide myth, but only in Afro-Eurasian cultures. You know, cultures that were in direct, albeit slow, cultural exchange.

(You can find snake and crocodile gods in other cultures. But counting those as dragons is really stretching an already thin concept. If any reptile counts as a dragon, then there is nothing left to the concept of dragon)

Flying serpents are a bit of a stretch, but not that much of one. In fact, they are almost an amalgamation of japanese and european dragons in design. Snake-like body of one, wings of the other.

[Seppl]

Flying serpents are a bit of a stretch, but not that much of one. In fact, they are almost an amalgamation of japanese and european dragons in design. Snake-like body of one, wings of the other.

If flying serpents and the like all count as dragons, then what is a dragon? Any mythological reptile? Any mythological large animal if we also count underwater panthers? I'm fine with that definition. But if it is that broad and unspecific then there is no deeper insight to be gained from the fact that any culture has such dragons. That's just like saying that any culture has myths involving animals. If we define dragon more specifically as a lizard-like beast, often associated with flight and/or fire, then the origin of that concept and its widespread geographic popularity become more intriguing.

[Lord Raziere]

Actually the theory that I read says that it comes from an instinctual aversion our primate ancestors had to certain apex predators: snakes, big cats and birds. a species doesn't survive long without recognizing whats dangerous to it and over time the three images all got mixed together into one super predator.

then we decided to add fire on top of that, because why not, fire is dangerous to.

[Aeson]

Flying serpents are a bit of a stretch, but not that much of one.

Flying serpents exist in the real world. They don't have the wings found on some mythological depictions and they aren't really any more capable of true flight than the flying squirrel is, but they are capable of gliding over reasonable distances and have some ability to maneuver while airborne.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Isn't the idea that people the idea of dragons came from dinosaur fossils, and therefore it is not surprising that they are widespread?

While many people in the past had functional knowledge of different types of animal bones and tracks, for instance because they were hunters, and while it is possible to identify a dinosaur fossil as "lizard like" by features such as its teeth (as happened with the 1778 Maastricht Mosasaurus) I'm still not the hugest fan of this explanation. Fossils in general are not super rare, but relatively complete fossils of large dinosaurs near the surface are a different matter. I also feel like the people with enough background to properly identify features of the fossil as reptilian and the people who make up dragon myths are not necessarily the same group. Think of the proposed connection between elephant skulls and cyclopses. (The skulls presumably being ones without huge tusks still attached, so partly degraded skulls, skulls fom young elephants or specific species etc.) Whoever (supposedly) made up one based on the other did not do a careful enough study to say conclude from the base of the neck that this was a quadrupedal animal.


Pictured: a fossilized pygmy elephant, pretty much the most cyclopsian of all the options.

You know, actually, as I'm arguing against this I start feeling like it might in fact be a part of the puzzle, a part. But the explanation "they just made scary stuff up" should probably still be the main hypothesis. Because simple explanations are always nice.

[Psyren]

I believe Tanchico has a museum in the palace, with dinosaur(?) and mammoth bones in-universe. (Seanchan has elephants as well, I believe.)

To put a bow on the discussion (at least from my perspective) - I don't doubt that the "Dragon" from Lews' banner is more likely to have come from our own, "First Age" legends than it was an actual dragon that one of his past incarnations interacted with. Dragons may not have ever existed in any of the wheel's turnings. My only curiosity is, did Lews or one of his predecessors simply say "ooh that thing looks cool, put it on a banner and call me that!" or was there more to it? The show may not deign to answer that or even hint at an answer, but if it does i won't complain - that's all I'm saying.

[Sivarias]

Dragons are an amalgamation of several threats.

Like Vampires. Pale skin, blood drinking, sharp teeth are universal.

Not because there was some predator that inspired it, but because sick people are pale, and predators are scary. So making a predator who is also representative of disease makes sense.

[Traab]

Dragons are an amalgamation of several threats.

Like Vampires. Pale skin, blood drinking, sharp teeth are universal.

Not because there was some predator that inspired it, but because sick people are pale, and predators are scary. So making a predator who is also representative of disease makes sense.

Yeah but there are dozens of types of vampires and they often look very very different from one to another. Some are murderous beasts, others are well, dracula, others are creepy and disturbing abominations. Some drink blood, others eat souls. Or entrails. An additional part of it is a fear of things dying but not staying that way as a significant portion of vampire type creatures are formerly dead bodies getting up and murdering everyone around them. Practically every culture has some sort of myth surrounding bodies not staying buried for a variety of reasons.

[Rodin]

Yeah but there are dozens of types of vampires and they often look very very different from one to another. Some are murderous beasts, others are well, dracula, others are creepy and disturbing abominations. Some drink blood, others eat souls. Or entrails. An additional part of it is a fear of things dying but not staying that way as a significant portion of vampire type creatures are formerly dead bodies getting up and murdering everyone around them. Practically every culture has some sort of myth surrounding bodies not staying buried for a variety of reasons.

In fact, the modern 'classy vampire' can be traced almost entirely to Bram Stoker. Prior to Dracula, vampires were closer to what we would call ghouls or revenants. They came back to life to drink blood, but they were typically poor peasants who rose from the grave to haunt family members or somebody who had wronged them. People with tuberculosis would be mistaken for vampires and get wooden staked.

The mysterious noble living in the castle and deliberately turning people came much later.

[Traab]

In fact, the modern 'classy vampire' can be traced almost entirely to Bram Stoker. Prior to Dracula, vampires were closer to what we would call ghouls or revenants. They came back to life to drink blood, but they were typically poor peasants who rose from the grave to haunt family members or somebody who had wronged them. People with tuberculosis would be mistaken for vampires and get wooden staked.

The mysterious noble living in the castle and deliberately turning people came much later.

Oh yes, dracula is a comparatively recent invention. Nosferatu was probably a better version of the old school vamps.

Spoiler

Show

Inhuman, monstrous, clearly a creature and not a sparkly dream boat.

[Ramza00]

Six new cast members announced Today on the Tor's website (Tor is the original book publisher for WOT.)

https://www.tor.com/2020/06/25/the-w...-cast-members/

I linked directly there instead of here for they also have the cast members prior to these 6, and they are linking to pictures and so on. It is just much neater than what I can make on this forum.

[Darth Credence]

Thanks for the link - I hadn't seen any of the casting. Mostly looks good, although all I can see when I look at the guy playing Rand is Tom Welling from Smallville.

[Ramza00]

Thanks for the link - I hadn't seen any of the casting. Mostly looks good, although all I can see when I look at the guy playing Rand is Tom Welling from Smallville.

I have no clue how Josha Stradowski (Rand Actor) face is going to look like in 5 or 10 years. He is 25 now, but he still looks teens / young twenties.

[Sivarias]

I was worried with the initial casting, but now that I've seen well lit photos of the cast, I like it.

Rand was supposed to be noticeably paler with red hair then the Edmonds fielders, and at first announcement the pictures where awful and super dark.

[Ramza00]

Hair Dye exists. Furthermore we as audience stop caring about the accuracy of hair color vs books the longer a series progresses. Jamie Lannister and Tyrion Lannister look nothing alike hair color from Season 1 vs Season 8, and it is extremely important story wise in the book what the Lannisters hair color is.