Modernizing the Wheel of Time

[Psyren]

Oh brilliant! Loving the additional diversity!

Thanks for the link, I had missed a lot of these last year. The al'Veres look awesome.

[Anteros]

I'm hoping they just drop Rand's "why am I so different from everyone else in this small village" subplot entirely. It makes sense with a realistic small village. It won't make sense with Hollywood diversity for the sake of representation casting choices.

I get why representation is important. I hate that we can't tell completely realistic story plotlines as a result because people will get their feelings hurt that not enough characters look like them. Especially frustrating in a series like WoT that basically celebrates diversity and points out the differences in cultures at every chance. There's be plenty of opportunities for representation that actually would make sense.

[Ramza00]

I'm hoping they just drop Rand's "why am I so different from everyone else in this small village" subplot entirely. It makes sense with a realistic small village. It won't make sense with Hollywood diversity for the sake of representation casting choices.

I like Dune, but it is problematic book from 1965 ^{(I actually prefer the later novels.)}

Well the Aiel in Wheel of Time is heavenly inspired by Dune even if it swapped some of the "racial" appearances. I say jettison all of this baggage but that is me.

Why specific people or cultures have to be "coded" as certain appearance traits when our Earth is full of such biodiversity. All it does is encourage certain styles of thinking.

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Ironic D&D announced in the next versions are not going to have anymore specifically "coded" as Evil and other traits with their races. It is just unnecessary baggage with storytelling.

[Dropping this for I do not believe I broke any rules, but I can foresee how this conservation topic can quickly bud up with these rules.]

[Psyren]

I'm hoping they just drop Rand's "why am I so different from everyone else in this small village" subplot entirely. It makes sense with a realistic small village. It won't make sense with Hollywood diversity for the sake of representation casting choices.

I get why representation is important. I hate that we can't tell completely realistic story plotlines as a result because people will get their feelings hurt that not enough characters look like them. Especially frustrating in a series like WoT that basically celebrates diversity and points out the differences in cultures at every chance. There's be plenty of opportunities for representation that actually would make sense.

Oh come off it; even if they don't do the red hair anymore, they can make Rand stand out from the Emonds Fielders in a number of ways besides being ginger. He's by far the tallest guy in the village for one, and they could do the eye color thing too.

As for the "realism" complaints, keep in mind that Jordan's race of pale ginger desert-dwellers didn't make a lot of sense to begin with and as for diversity in Emond's Field, Manetheren was one of the Ten Nations; big enough to encompass both Ghealdan and Amadicia and parts of Andor - huge in other words, so the idea that there was no diversity of any kind in their descendants is far less "realistic."

[Seppl]

As for the "realism" complaints, keep in mind that Jordan's race of pale ginger desert-dwellers didn't make a lot of sense to begin with and as for diversity in Emond's Field, Manetheren was one of the Ten Nations; big enough to encompass both Ghealdan and Amadicia and parts of Andor - huge in other words, so the idea that there was no diversity of any kind in their descendants is far less "realistic."

Now you are back to making Viking villages with New York City demographics

Your own experience with demographics in the US cloud your perspective on demographics in other parts of the world. The demographics in the US are the way they are because of two big factors: 1. A sudden displacement of a great amount of people from all over the world (often violent!) not too many generations ago. 2. Racial segregation, until recently by actual laws, or by continuing social stigma among large parts of the population. And a minor factor: We live in post-industrial times with high social mobility.

In contrast: People in Randland had their violent displacement event some 3000 years ago. They lived as subsistence farmers for hundreds of generations. Mostly landlocked, too. If you say they still have New York City demographics after all that time, what are you implying? Did the people of Emonds Field go on slave raids recently? Very unfortunate. Did people keep their genetic identity for 3000 years because the people in Emonds Field are strongly against mixed race marriages? Also very unfortunate. Even worse with your comment on the Aiel: What is that supposed to mean? Red haired people are not allowed to live in deserts? Everybody should stay where they belong? You have now added plenty of unfortunate implication into the worldbuilding, when the original was (intentionally!) quite the opposite.

[lord_khaine]

Now you are back to making Viking villages with New York City demographics

Yeah i do find that exceptionally dumb myself.

And i am 100% behind the points Seppl rise.
Though i guess if the acting is convincing i can likely ignore it.

[Kitten Champion]

The Aiel aren't a race of red-headed pale-skinned desert dwellers, they're a collection of agricultural communities that suddenly found their world ruined utterly by sweeping environmental change and the collapse of civilization that stayed in what became a desert waste biome strictly for quasi-religious reasons. The whole premise of them as a people is they don't make sense without a depth of understanding of their history and how that degraded into their present society.

[lord_khaine]

The Aiel aren't a race of red-headed pale-skinned desert dwellers, they're a collection of agricultural communities that suddenly found their world ruined utterly by sweeping environmental change and the collapse of civilization that stayed in what became a desert waste biome strictly for quasi-religious reasons. The whole premise of them as a people is they don't make sense without a depth of understanding of their history and how that degraded into their present society.

No. They still dont make that much sense even then.
You dont remain in a exceptionally hostile enviroment that weeds out the weak or slow without adapting.
In the case of the Aiel they should all be brown or black.

[Gnoman]

Oh brilliant! Loving the additional diversity!

Thanks for the link, I had missed a lot of these last year. The al'Veres look awesome.

There's very little actual diversity being added.

Egwene stood a few paces behind the Wisdom, watching intently. Of a height with Nynaeve, and with the same dark coloring, she could at that moment have been a reflection of Nynaeve’s mood, arms crossed beneath her breasts, mouth tight with disapproval. The hood of her soft gray cloak shaded her face, and her big brown eyes held no laughter now.

By ethnicity, most of the casting is true to the book so far.

[Seppl]

No. They still dont make that much sense even then.
You dont remain in a exceptionally hostile enviroment that weeds out the weak or slow without adapting.
In the case of the Aiel they should all be brown or black.

Would you say, the Aiel are not well adapted? They are the undisputed masters of the desert, despite any disadvantages. And had almost no contact with outsiders that could have introduced new dominant genes. Rand's mother is the one known case of an outsider joining the Aiel. Even if there were a few others, the Aiel are a developed, technological human society. Evolutionary pressure is almost non-existent in those.

I for one found this aspect of WoT world building very refreshing. I was expecting the stereotypical Arab-like desert people and got the opposite. Because the colour of your skin does not matter and you can live anywhere you want. I feel the work would be greatly diminished if this were changed in adaptation.

Was I the only one to notice that the burly warrior folks of northern Randland were not looking like stereotypical Vikings, as one would expect? Instead the description sounded more like East Asians. The same undermining of expectations and stereotypes can be found in many other places of Randland. Except the starting kingdom of white Middleuropean pseudo-Camelot, that sets up those expectation, so that the author can have fun subverting them later. Please don't adapt this as "every race in their place"!

[Psyren]

There's very little actual diversity being added.



By ethnicity, most of the casting is true to the book so far.

All the official/cover/comic art until now seems to have missed that memo then, so I stand by my statement/celebration. *shrug*

I for one found this aspect of WoT world building very refreshing. I was expecting the stereotypical Arab-like desert people and got the opposite. Because the colour of your skin does not matter and you can live anywhere you want. I feel the work would be greatly diminished if this were changed in adaptation.

You can absolutely live anywhere you want regardless of skin color, I'm not disputing that.

But a ginger people living in a desert for three thousand years is probably going to have some effects on their skin - again, purely as a counterpoint to the guy yelling about how this casting flies in the face of "realism."

[Seppl]

All the official/cover/comic art until now seems to have missed that memo then, so I stand by my statement/celebration. *shrug*

The official art has always been kind of dodgy. Just think about the original cover art, where people look like mannequins painted by an alien, and the Trollocs and Loial got totally butchered. And yes, there is a very clear bias to default-white in the official art and especially in fanart, even when the books state quite clearly that this is wrong. It might be because the book is not constantly reminding you of people's complexion. And that is a good thing. (If only it was not constantly reminding us about the style of dresses…)

[Psyren]

The official art has always been kind of dodgy. Just think about the original cover art, where people look like mannequins painted by an alien, and the Trollocs and Loial got totally butchered. And yes, there is a very clear bias to default-white in the official art and especially in fanart, even when the books state quite clearly that this is wrong. It might be because the book is not constantly reminding you of people's complexion. And that is a good thing. (If only it was not constantly reminding us about the style of dresses…)

Yeah Darrell K Sweet was not particularly good. But he wasn't the only cover artist either - Jason Denzel's stuff is phenomenal. But he went overwhelmingly white too, so again, I stand by my statement that this is adding representation that many may have missed.

Here is his Nynaeve and Lan for instance (mild spoiler):

Spoiler

Show

As for "constantly reminding you of people's complexion" - clearly the books didn't do that enough, or this problem would have been avoided in the first place.

[Seppl]

As for "constantly reminding you of people's complexion" - clearly the books didn't do that enough, or this problem would have been avoided in the first place.

No, because what does it matter? That is the problem: You want the work to be really anvilicious about its diversity, when it is actually a lot more progressive by saying that all these superficial traits are not important to who a person is.

[Rodin]

Yeah Darrell K Sweet was not particularly good. But he wasn't the only cover artist either - Jason Denzel's stuff is phenomenal. But he went overwhelmingly white too, so again, I stand by my statement that this is adding representation that many may have missed.

Here is his Nynaeve and Lan for instance (mild spoiler):

Spoiler

Show

As for "constantly reminding you of people's complexion" - clearly the books didn't do that enough, or this problem would have been avoided in the first place.

Really? I think Denzel's covers are awful. Not knocking the art, but they feel entirely inappropriate for the tone of the series. They would fit better on YA fantasy romance novels.

He has a couple of good ones, like Shadow Rising and Fires of Heaven. The rest belong to a different series.

The Darrell K Sweet ones weren't stellar, but they set the tone a hell of a lot better.

All told, I think I like the second set of covers the best. A simple Ouroboros that gets across the idea of The Wheel while allowing you to picture the characters however you like.

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I just noticed something interesting about the casting. Alanna? Leane? These are odd choices if you're going to be covering The Eye of the World, as they don't show up until book 2. Possibly later in the case of Alanna.

They do, however, appear in New Spring. As does the last character listed, Kerene Nagashi. Kerene appears only in New Spring, which explains why I didn't recognize the character name.

I think they may actually start with Moiraine and Lan. Cover New Spring quickly before moving onto Eye.

Either that or we're going to get a flashback episode.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rodin
The Darrell K Sweet ones weren't stellar, but they set the tone a hell of a lot better.

The DKS covers helped put me off the series, because I've always found his work to be extremely generic and uninspired.

They may well have matched the tone, but they didn't invite me to explore the book in the first place.

[Ramza00]

Either that or we're going to get a flashback episode.

Makes far more sense to do a flashback episode for New Spring. Make that episodes for NS, but the whole story itself will require flashbacks of speaking out loud personal stories while people are chilling and drinking wine.

[Morgaln]

The one casting choice so far that I don't understand at all is Padan Fain. Did they really need to turn the arguably most disturbing villain in the entire series into a PoC? Even though he is described as very pale (implying he's white) in the books?

[Adderbane]

The DKS covers helped put me off the series, because I've always found his work to be extremely generic and uninspired.

They may well have matched the tone, but they didn't invite me to explore the book in the first place.

It's kind of funny, because the DKS cover to The Dragon Reborn is what got me to pick the book up.

[Psyren]

No, because what does it matter? That is the problem: You want the work to be really anvilicious about its diversity, when it is actually a lot more progressive by saying that all these superficial traits are not important to who a person is.

I never said I wanted anything to be "anvillicious" I think there is a lot of daylight between that and your position of favoring silence, and that daylight is where I happen to fall.

Really? I think Denzel's covers are awful. Not knocking the art, but they feel entirely inappropriate for the tone of the series. They would fit better on YA fantasy romance novels.

He has a couple of good ones, like Shadow Rising and Fires of Heaven. The rest belong to a different series.

The Darrell K Sweet ones weren't stellar, but they set the tone a hell of a lot better.

Disagree completely. All the Denzel covers are stellar in my mind. He even captures the ageless look perfectly imo, though that was one of the covers you liked as well (Moiraine on the TFOH cover).

All told, I think I like the second set of covers the best. A simple Ouroboros that gets across the idea of The Wheel while allowing you to picture the characters however you like.

Yawn, those are boring.

I just noticed something interesting about the casting. Alanna? Leane? These are odd choices if you're going to be covering The Eye of the World, as they don't show up until book 2. Possibly later in the case of Alanna.

They do, however, appear in New Spring. As does the last character listed, Kerene Nagashi. Kerene appears only in New Spring, which explains why I didn't recognize the character name.

I think they may actually start with Moiraine and Lan. Cover New Spring quickly before moving onto Eye.

Either that or we're going to get a flashback episode.

Alanna is present in book 2 - it's a more minor role than what she gets in TDR+, but she is part of the Amyrlin's retinue to Fal Dara, and participates in Egwene and Nynaeve's initial training montage on the way back from there to Tar Valon. Pretty much every Aes Sedai named on that trip is significant later - Anaiya is there, Leane and Verin of course, Alanna, Alviarin of all people, and Liandrin. I'm not sure if any yellows or grays are mentioned though.

[Sivarias]

The one casting choice so far that I don't understand at all is Padan Fain. Did they really need to turn the arguably most disturbing villain in the entire series into a PoC? Even though he is described as very pale (implying he's white) in the books?

Why is diversity ok for protagonists but not for antagonists?

I am dissapointed with you. I prefer when characters look how they are supposed to *glares at Arya*, but intentionally coding all the villains any color is messed up.

I just hope they get Lanfere and Semirage right. I'm gonna be pissed if they do the whole "beautiful means blond hair and blue eyes" garbage.

[Sapphire Guard]

Is 3000k long enough to change skin tones of an entire people (not counting sunburn tans etc)

[Morgaln]

Why is diversity ok for protagonists but not for antagonists?

I am dissapointed with you. I prefer when characters look how they are supposed to *glares at Arya*, but intentionally coding all the villains any color is messed up.

I just hope they get Lanfere and Semirage right. I'm gonna be pissed if they do the whole "beautiful means blond hair and blue eyes" garbage.

Diversity is perfectly fine for antagonists. I certainly hope there will be diversity among the Forsaken. I just feel like this particular villain should not have been changed. It rubs me the wrong way when they take the character that can make fades afraid and say "you know, this guy really should be black, not white as he is described in the source." It's a personal feeling and I'm probably bad at explaining it. *shrug*

[Morgaln]

Is 3000k long enough to change skin tones of an entire people (not counting sunburn tans etc)

3000k is three million years; Homo sapiens evolved around 300k years ago, so that's ten times as long as modern human has existed. I think that's time for a lot more than just changed skin tone...

[Ramza00]

Is 3000k long enough to change skin tones of an entire people (not counting sunburn tans etc)

3000 years.

First this is Fantasy so trying to apply Realism and Real World Genetics to it is silly.

Second yes and no. Genetics diversity happens due to

1) Founder Effects when there is a sudden shock to the environment. Assuming no human ingenuity just treating humans like animals, if a selected "phenotype" (external biological traits, aka not the DNA itself aka the "genes" known as Genotype) provides an advantage then the population will overselect for those genes due to lots of people / animals dying but the selected phenotype provided an advantage and they were less likely to die.

2) But if a gene occurs due to random mutation, (such as gaining a lactase tolerance so you can drink cow / goat milk as children, teens, adults.) It will take longer to spread unless that gene provides an advantage to survive the childhood years, the teen years, and / or makes you a more prodigious breeder and the kids you breed survive to adulthood and breed themselves. Yadda yadda yadda.

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That was the Yes but now lets talk about the No.

All of 1 and 2 can be stop by social structures created via "mutual aid" where the group wants all its members to survive, and everyone has the understanding they help everyone in the social structure. This happens with social rules but also without rules. For example bats in caves overfeed the young, not seeking out their specific dna kin instead feeding anyone on the ledge and that ledge may have thousands of youngs bats. There is prosociality here and a collective understanding. In fact this arrangement is "efficient" for it is wasteful time and energy metabolism wise to seek out your own kin. We see this "pro-social" behavior in birds, mammals, insects, and crustaceans and the more complicated eu-social behavior (eu is greek for good) in some mammals, some insects, and some crustaceans. Whether humans are prosocial vs eusocial depends on different cultures and in different time frames, there is not a universal human social experience.

The Aiel culture itself, is going to show mure "emergent traits" than any external phenotype or internal genotype in order to survive the desert after the breaking of the world.

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Like I said before this is Fantasy. Now let me answer the thesis that I set up and got lost in the weeds explaining. Since Reality does not always follow a set path, there are multiple realities that could emerge, expecting Fantasy to be similar to one single reality is a farcical illusion. For you are choosing which reality occurs when you tell a story, and it can be similar to what could be, but there is not a single what could be.

Yes we can see genetic selection to specific externalized phenotype traits in 3,000 years (such as skin color.) We seen similar things in our real world humanity such as lactase persistence genes allowing humans to drink milk at later ages. But we can also see no genetic selection effects if we see social structures adapt and create a mutual benefit relationship where there is a high amount of survivors for everyone works together and when a person dies it is not due to a genetic trait but it is due to random bad luck.

All is possible, for this is storytelling, and a more detailed world building realizes storytelling is layers for you are not just telling a story but you are revealing to a reader a culture the reader will never fully see much like you may see an iceberg above the water while standing on the boat, but there is also ice under the water you will never see due to the limits of the human eye. Storytelling is both a mixture of choosing what to reveal and what to conceal.

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Yadda, yadda, yadda this 5 minute video explains it better. Warning Galaxy Quest and Vampires, things that spark joy for me but maybe not for you.

[Psyren]

RE: Aiel genetics - we already see that the waste has affected them because they can survive with far more sun and far less water than "wetlander" peoples. The fantasy part of that is simply that they have no outward changes to their appearance as a result. I'm not saying there's a problem with that - I'm saying that crying "realism" as a critique of any skin changes in a fantasy world is not particularly useful as critiques go.

RE: Padan Fain - I don't have a problem with him being racebent. Yes, he's a villain, and yes he's a pretty clear sendup of Gollum early in the series - but he becomes insanely powerful and gains considerable agency/influence as the series goes on. That agency and capability matter far more for any sort of representation than mere alignment.

[Traab]

The only way it would be a problem is if he was the token black character. Even then its not so much a problem as it is an opening for complaints. "Oh great, all of one black guy in your series and of COURSE he is the vilest monster in the setting short of Shaitan himself!"

[Psyren]

Agreed, if he was the only one racebent that would be a problem. But given that they did that to one of the primary protagonists (Perrin) as well...

[Rynjin]

Agreed, if he was the only one racebent that would be a problem. But given that they did that to one of the primary protagonists (Perrin) as well...

It might be because I haven't read the series in a long while, but wasn't Perrin consistently described as "swarthy" at the very least? Not a huge leap from there to make him black.

[Psyren]

It might be because I haven't read the series in a long while, but wasn't Perrin consistently described as "swarthy" at the very least? Not a huge leap from there to make him black.

I just searched and he doesn't appear to be called that at any point (not that it matters). The only characters I saw described that way are Couladin, Gaidal Cain, Juilin Sandar and the unnamed Red sister present at Nynaeve's Accepted test (not Liandrin or Elaida.)