A Lich in a Portable Hole

[Reaver25]

Hello playgrounders!
I figured I'd come here and ask for the advice of the many experienced DM's that frequent the forums, so here goes nothing:

My last session was a few days ago, and I planned a very deadly encounter for them. The encounter included the following:
-Lich
-Many Undead
-Some Half Dragons (tied to the BBEG who was working with the Lich)

Now, the players had some good NPCs on their side, but mainly with some awesome luck and great planning they were able to take down the Lich. At level 8. HAHA!!
No but seriously, their plan was to silence the Lich, grapple him, take down his mini army, and hope to the gods he doesn't get out of the grapple. Now, I understand that Lich's have legendary resistance but I wanted to see where this was going.
Apparently, it was going somewhere extraplanar. The Party's Rogue had a Black Hole and trapped the Lich inside of it with an EXCELLENT roll. Again, I wanted to see where this was going.
Now, I am faced with a dilemma. OBVIOUSLY, this Lich is pissed off at the party. Yes, he could get out and just kill them all. But, hey, that's boring and would completely derail what the players worked so hard at.
No, I think it's far more interesting to do... something else.
And that's where you come in! What are your thoughts on this?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Throw the party into a hellish demiplane of darkness and cold, like the inside of the portable hole only worse.

[Lupine]

Throw the party into a hellish demiplane of darkness and cold, like the inside of the portable hole only worse.

I think that is one of the layers of the nine hells.

[Mr Adventurer]

What is their plan with the portable hole now?

[Sjappo]

Hello playgrounders!
I figured I'd come here and ask for the advice of the many experienced DM's that frequent the forums, so here goes nothing:

My last session was a few days ago, and I planned a very deadly encounter for them. The encounter included the following:
-Lich
-Many Undead
-Some Half Dragons (tied to the BBEG who was working with the Lich)

Now, the players had some good NPCs on their side, but mainly with some awesome luck and great planning they were able to take down the Lich. At level 8. HAHA!!
No but seriously, their plan was to silence the Lich, grapple him, take down his mini army, and hope to the gods he doesn't get out of the grapple. Now, I understand that Lich's have legendary resistance but I wanted to see where this was going.
Apparently, it was going somewhere extraplanar. The Party's Rogue had a Black Hole and trapped the Lich inside of it with an EXCELLENT roll. Again, I wanted to see where this was going.
Now, I am faced with a dilemma. OBVIOUSLY, this Lich is pissed off at the party. Yes, he could get out and just kill them all. But, hey, that's boring and would completely derail what the players worked so hard at.
No, I think it's far more interesting to do... something else.
And that's where you come in! What are your thoughts on this?

Seeing as the Lich has Plane Shift on its spell list, it's not really all that stuck. Not using the Lich's best options because that would derail the PCs plans does take away from the perceived victory. The Lich was playing with training wheels on. A Lich is a CR 21 creature. What the .... where they doing taking on a Lich at lvl 8.

I think you need to drive that point home.

What you may be teaching your players is that they can win anything if the have an original idea. I'm not sure if I'd want my players to think that.

So, what happens next. That depends on the circumstances. What was the Lich planning. Why were the PCs there anyway. How can the Lich fit the PCs in its plans? Could it use the PCs as unwitting agents for its own designs?

[JackPhoenix]

Seeing as the Lich has Plane Shift on its spell list, it's not really all that stuck. Not using the Lich's best options because that would derail the PCs plans does take away from the perceived victory. The Lich was playing with training wheels on. A Lich is a CR 21 creature. What the .... where they doing taking on a Lich at lvl 8.

The lich doesn't even need Plane Shift. Escaping from Portable Hole is DC 10 Str check. If the lich stays there, it is because it wants to. Perhaps it wants to use a bunch of morons heroes to smuggle it into a place it couldn't get otherwise?

[saucerhead]

The lich doesn't even need Plane Shift. Escaping from Portable Hole is DC 10 Str check. If the lich stays there, it is because it wants to. Perhaps it wants to use a bunch of morons heroes to smuggle it into a place it couldn't get otherwise?

Heh, he has an arcane eye come out and look around every so often, or he listens to the group's plans just to summon something at the appropriate time to mess things up. If the group opens the portable hole to confront him there is a note and 2sp "Room service, Fresh towels please", as he comes and goes as he pleases.

[JackPhoenix]

Heh, he has an arcane eye come out and look around every so often, or he listens to the group's plans just to summon something at the appropriate time to mess things up. If the group opens the portable hole to confront him there is a note and 2sp "Room service, Fresh towels please", as he comes and goes as he pleases.

I've had an unused villain who was a lich bored out of his mind after doing all the usual stuff.... discovering the secrets of magic, traveling the planes, conquering world with undead armies... who decided he'll pick some chumps and mess with them for no good reason. Punching someone unconscious with bare hands just because he can and he's invulnerable, "attacking" a village with a horde of zombies who perform a dance routine once they break through the defenses, summoning a plague of frogs, some of which explode for small damage when stepped on (idea stolen from 4chan), creating dungeons filled with traps more annoying and embarassing than deadly....

[Tvtyrant]

Hello playgrounders!
I figured I'd come here and ask for the advice of the many experienced DM's that frequent the forums, so here goes nothing:

My last session was a few days ago, and I planned a very deadly encounter for them. The encounter included the following:
-Lich
-Many Undead
-Some Half Dragons (tied to the BBEG who was working with the Lich)

Now, the players had some good NPCs on their side, but mainly with some awesome luck and great planning they were able to take down the Lich. At level 8. HAHA!!
No but seriously, their plan was to silence the Lich, grapple him, take down his mini army, and hope to the gods he doesn't get out of the grapple. Now, I understand that Lich's have legendary resistance but I wanted to see where this was going.
Apparently, it was going somewhere extraplanar. The Party's Rogue had a Black Hole and trapped the Lich inside of it with an EXCELLENT roll. Again, I wanted to see where this was going.
Now, I am faced with a dilemma. OBVIOUSLY, this Lich is pissed off at the party. Yes, he could get out and just kill them all. But, hey, that's boring and would completely derail what the players worked so hard at.
No, I think it's far more interesting to do... something else.
And that's where you come in! What are your thoughts on this?

Since he can come and go as he pleases, I would have him give sage advice from the bag. Make him the Gandalf of the group, always suggesting wacky new adventures and trying to convince the party to do heroic stuff. If they try to kill him he just shifts away, but he stays from the entertainment.

[Keravath]

1) The DC 10 strength check to escape a closed portable hole does mean that even a Lich won't be contained for long.
2) Being grappled is probably one of the biggest weaknesses of a Lich. Grapple, knock it prone, then it can't stand up and all melee attacks against it have advantage. However, none of this prevents spell casting which is the Lich's primary ability.
3) Dimension door is a quick escape from a grapple. Re appear 100' away and direct the battle, toss in a fireball, cloudkill or a disintegrate.
4) A Lich can't be killed unless you take out its phylactery as well. All you are doing is slowing it down and irritating it. If you have already destroyed the phylactery then the Lich isn't going to stick around to fight you no matter what ... these are int 20 selfish evil creatures ... they are smart ... they leave if there is a chance they might lose.
5) DMs love to throw in iconic monsters like Lichs but a level 8 party should be well and truly done for most of the time if they engage a Lich, it is a bad choice of monster for a DM to use unless the DM has purposefully toned it down ... then it isn't really a Lich.

---

Anyway, if the Lich is tired of playing with its food, he might just not be there when the players go to open the portable hole. Which will give them something else to worry about. The Lich could always leave by casting Planeshift.

P.S. The players may have "worked hard" on their idea but it is an utter failure against a creature like a lich. Grappling the lich was a good idea ... trying to imprison it in a portable hole just doesn't work. The characters saw how well the grapple worked. When they find an empty portable hole maybe they will do a bit more research on lichs before trying to fight one again. As a DM, they have to remain impartial, letting an idea work just because it sounds cool even though it wouldn't work at all is not remaining impartial. Players come up with awesome but useless ideas all the time, reward them for the awesome but useful ones (e.g. grappling) but have them learn from the useless ones (e.g portable hole as a prison).

[boxfox]

I'd reiterate what everyone else said, mainly that the lich is in no way trapped.

If it were me, that lich would dip home, grab some minion of a more realistic power level and planar shift it back into that hole's pocket dimension with instructions to come out to play that night when the PCs are sleeping.

Or, maybe it just peaks out of the hole and casts Cloudkill point-blank.


Again, Keravath's comment about it not even being a lich is incredibly poignant here. If you want it to be "Iconic" it needs to act iconic, not like a wimp.

Of course, maybe it's NOT a lich. Maybe it's just a lesser mage that has cast Disguise Self to make it look like a lich in order to inspire fear and gather minions.

[Artemis Fowl]

I know how this feels. I was DMing a session where the PC's had to go into a Ancient Red Dragon's Cave (which it had stolen from one of the party's dwarves clan, think The Hobbit), steal a couple bits of treasure and a seed for Yggdrasil the world tree and get out. They were level 5-6. Instead of sneaking, they proceed to use create water to keep the dragon's fire out (because it makes sense and I wanted to see what would happen) and kill the dragon in combat via rouges sneak attack and a surplus of healers. I know that I could have had the dragon run away at any time, but one of the clerics promised to use revivify on the dragon, and just subdue it, so I let them fight it.

I hate PCs.

[Keravath]

I know how this feels. I was DMing a session where the PC's had to go into a Ancient Red Dragon's Cave (which it had stolen from one of the party's dwarves clan, think The Hobbit), steal a couple bits of treasure and a seed for Yggdrasil the world tree and get out. They were level 5-6. Instead of sneaking, they proceed to use create water to keep the dragon's fire out (because it makes sense and I wanted to see what would happen) and kill the dragon in combat via rouges sneak attack and a surplus of healers. I know that I could have had the dragon run away at any time, but one of the clerics promised to use revivify on the dragon, and just subdue it, so I let them fight it.

I hate PCs.

As DM, you decided to allow it. That's fine. However, in 90% of other games out there, the ideas proposed would not work.

1) Create water ...

"Create Water. You create up to 10 gallons of clean water within range in an open container. Alternatively, the water falls as rain in a 30-foot cube within range, extinguishing exposed flames in the area."

No way in my world (your world works nby your rules though) that would stop a red dragon breath. Dragons likely drink water all the time, they aren't allergic and their file would likely evaporate that much water in less than a second.

Create water is also single use and uses a spell slot every time. Upcast, it creates more water but that honestly makes little difference.

2) Ancient red dragon has AC22 and 546 hit points. How many rounds of combat were they fighting? Sneak attack at level 5 does 3d6 extra damage on one attack/turn and that assumes that they even hit.

Frightful presence - DC21 wisdom saving throw or frightened - most of a party of level 5 to 6 will fail this - there will be no coordinated attack and if your caster fails the create water idea goes out the window too.

Firebreath recharges on a 5-6 ... so even if you allow it to be prevented, it will come back and it will kill anyone it hits at level 5 to 6.

However, the dragon doesn't appear to be paralysed or otherwise prevented from attacking. It has three attacks every round +17 to hit, averaging about 60 damage which will pretty much kill a level 5 or 6 character every round.

It also has legendary actions and can fly 80'/turn.

For some reason you decided that the dragon would lie there and die for a bunch of level 5 or 6 characters whether one of them promised to revive it or not. It's your choice as DM which is perfectly fine since it is your game but most other games I have run into it would never happen.

----

The point of this response? "I hate PCs" ... the PCs have nothing to do with it. If they come up with an idiotic plan that has no prayer of working against the creature they encounter but the DM decides to allow it anyway .. thats fine .. but the only person to "hate" in such a circumstance is the DM for allowing a ludicrous plan to succeed when the characters didn't have a chance.

----

P.S. Dragons are smart ... if a party starts using yo-yo healing to bring characters back up. The dragon will make sure each one is completely dead before moving on to the next.

[Mr Adventurer]

As DM, you decided to allow it. That's fine. However, in 90% of other games out there, the ideas proposed would not work.

1) Create water ...

"Create Water. You create up to 10 gallons of clean water within range in an open container. Alternatively, the water falls as rain in a 30-foot cube within range, extinguishing exposed flames in the area."

No way in my world (your world works nby your rules though) that would stop a red dragon breath. Dragons likely drink water all the time, they aren't allergic and their file would likely evaporate that much water in less than a second.

Create water is also single use and uses a spell slot every time. Upcast, it creates more water but that honestly makes little difference.

2) Ancient red dragon has AC22 and 546 hit points. How many rounds of combat were they fighting? Sneak attack at level 5 does 3d6 extra damage on one attack/turn and that assumes that they even hit.

Frightful presence - DC21 wisdom saving throw or frightened - most of a party of level 5 to 6 will fail this - there will be no coordinated attack and if your caster fails the create water idea goes out the window too.

Firebreath recharges on a 5-6 ... so even if you allow it to be prevented, it will come back and it will kill anyone it hits at level 5 to 6.

However, the dragon doesn't appear to be paralysed or otherwise prevented from attacking. It has three attacks every round +17 to hit, averaging about 60 damage which will pretty much kill a level 5 or 6 character every round.

It also has legendary actions and can fly 80'/turn.

For some reason you decided that the dragon would lie there and die for a bunch of level 5 or 6 characters whether one of them promised to revive it or not. It's your choice as DM which is perfectly fine since it is your game but most other games I have run into it would never happen.

----

The point of this response? "I hate PCs" ... the PCs have nothing to do with it. If they come up with an idiotic plan that has no prayer of working against the creature they encounter but the DM decides to allow it anyway .. thats fine .. but the only person to "hate" in such a circumstance is the DM for allowing a ludicrous plan to succeed when the characters didn't have a chance.

----

P.S. Dragons are smart ... if a party starts using yo-yo healing to bring characters back up. The dragon will make sure each one is completely dead before moving on to the next.

I was thinking something similar. The only variable is how many are in the party - dozens of characters night have been able to do it by brute-forcing the probability (i.e. enough characters pass the fear save that enough survive the dragon's attacks that enough roll high enough to hit that enough damage is done to take the dragon out).

But I wouldn't have had Create Water negate it's breath weapon. Fire dragons are not significantly hampered by the rain. At most, as a surprise tactic, I'd have allowed it to give everyone advantage on the save - I've heard (but not yet checked) that being underwater gives you Adv on saves vs fire so that part makes sense. It still wouldn't have been enough to save many characters, of course.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I was thinking something similar. The only variable is how many are in the party - dozens of characters night have been able to do it by brute-forcing the probability (i.e. enough characters pass the fear save that enough survive the dragon's attacks that enough roll high enough to hit that enough damage is done to take the dragon out).

But I wouldn't have had Create Water negate it's breath weapon. Fire dragons are not significantly hampered by the rain. At most, as a surprise tactic, I'd have allowed it to give everyone advantage on the save - I've heard (but not yet checked) that being underwater gives you Adv on saves vs fire so that part makes sense. It still wouldn't have been enough to save many characters, of course.

Being submarge in water give you resistance to fire damage.
It is in underwater combat in the PHB.

[Mr Adventurer]

Being submarge in water give you resistance to fire damage.
It is in underwater combat in the PHB.

Cheers, thanks - yeah, that's what I'd go for. Wouldn't work a second time as the (extremely competent) dragon would be wise to the trick.

Edit: I am assuming "the trick" is creating the water at the dragon's mouth at the point of its use of fire breath. Just making people wet wouldn't do it.

[Tes]

I know how this feels. I was DMing a session where the PC's had to go into a Ancient Red Dragon's Cave (which it had stolen from one of the party's dwarves clan, think The Hobbit), steal a couple bits of treasure and a seed for Yggdrasil the world tree and get out. They were level 5-6. Instead of sneaking, they proceed to use create water to keep the dragon's fire out (because it makes sense and I wanted to see what would happen) and kill the dragon in combat via rouges sneak attack and a surplus of healers. I know that I could have had the dragon run away at any time, but one of the clerics promised to use revivify on the dragon, and just subdue it, so I let them fight it.

I hate PCs.

Agreed with everything others said about that.

We killed a Young Red Dragon with 5 lvl 5s before. Succeeding on rolls to figure out when it's gone to take out its Minions with hit and run tactics. Forcing it to defend its hoard for the actual encounter to catch it on the ground. Fire resistance on the Paladin and Fighter. Net Spell and Command Ready from Cleric and Wizard abusing its weak saves.
We had every preparation possible to swing that fight in our favor, the Dragon failed the saves it needed to fail and still managed to down (although not kill) two people. No Legendary Resistances, just lair actions. That was a pretty damn gruesome battle even after all the prep we had.

Using couple cubic feet of liquid from Create Water to douse the flames of a breath attack in TPK range for the whole party seems a bit odd. Even with Resistance on all of them that's still a good chunk of the party down most of the time.
I'd go so far to call disabling the breath by carrying around stolen parts of the hoard tried and tested anti Red tactics, so okay no breath weapon.
Against an Ancient Red even without Breath available. The DC25 on his Wing Attack Legendary Action to disengage and just its attacks are going to mess up 2 backliners turn 1 reliably or kill 1 outright. Could you elaborate on how they outhealed a Dragon? Did he down but not kill the Fighter every turn, only ever hitting 1 Attack/Round afterwards while the Rouge kept stabbing (and hitting!) its massive AC or something? We're still looking at something like 5 rounds of combat with >100 DPR from a party of lvl 5s here.

[Reaver25]

These seem like some good ideas, but has somehow turned into "Ridiculous things the DM let's players do." I get it, everyone games different. The rule of cool takes precedent a lot of the time at my table. Yeah, they got a Lich in the portable hole. Does that mean it'll work again? Heck no. Lich is super smart and they surprised him. He was there for something else and all of a sudden a giant octopus starts to tentacle him. Sh!t you guys. It was awesome. The point isn't to say "how do I make them pay?" The point is to ask your advice on how to best move the story forward.
Right now, I love the leaving and coming back whenever he pleases since it's like a sanctum lol. 2sp and fresh towels. That is hilarious.

[Spriteless]

I like how that makes you waiting to see where this is going into the lich waiting to see where this is going.

[TalksAlone]

Maybe the Lich isn't even mad!

Liches by definition are problem-solvers: they had the problem of being mortal and dealt with it. Sure the party's solution didn't work flawlessly but neither does lichdom. Now suppose that Portable Hole was instead a Sphere of Annihilation, it might have worked. The thought was there, even if the resources weren't. That is something a Lich may admire.

Even then, what did the party took from it? Some disposable lackeys. Meanwhile, the party itself could turn into a much more valuable resource. If the Lich isn't the BBEG of your campaign, maybe it switches sides. It helps the party hunt down the BBEG, so the competition is taken care of. Points them in the way of it's foes. Tries to befriend them. So on and so forth.

Or maybe he just hides in shame for a thousand years for being caught in a portable hole. Who knows.

[Sorinth]

The simplest explanation is that the Lich actually discovered something in that extra dimensional space that has peaked his curiosity. He doesn't escape because he's working on something that can only be done inside a pocket dimension created by things like a portable hole, bag of holding, etc...

If for example magic works just a little bit differently inside a pocket dimension then on other planes including the material plane then the Lich is studying/experimenting with that. There doesn't even have to be a tangible difference with how magic works, someone whose dedicated to understanding how magic works would study that difference just to get a better understanding of magic as a whole. That said I would actually be tempted to create a meaningful difference, and make it so that the Lich has actually made it his lair and starts changing things. So first he expands the dimension, so the "hole" is now a 6ft diameter portal to a pocket dimension several miles in dimension and at the center of it is a tower where the lich resides with his phylactery, a whole ecosystem is created, surrounding the tower and is filled with strange magics. Since the Lich can come and go as he pleases after time passes and the PCs have gained many levels they'll eventually discover the mastermind behind some evil plot is in fact the Lich they first encountered and thought was trapped in the portable hole. They then have to jump through the hole into his realm and have to battle their way through this strange world and defeat him for good this time, except magic doesn't work normally and weird things happen whenever they cast spells.

[N810]

Wasn't the Litch silenced before they grappled him ?

What would happen if they carefully chucked the folded up portable hole into a bag of holding ?

[Reevh]

The lich doesn't even need Plane Shift. Escaping from Portable Hole is DC 10 Str check. If the lich stays there, it is because it wants to. Perhaps it wants to use a bunch of morons heroes to smuggle it into a place it couldn't get otherwise?

Who knows what else might be in that Portable Hole with it, though? It might be fighting the Balrog in there.

[Reaver25]

Wasn't the Litch silenced before they grappled him ?

What would happen if they carefully chucked the folded up portable hole into a bag of holding ?

The Lich was silenced, but the way the silence spell works in 5e is an area of effect spell, not a single person effect (to my knowledge).
Now, that being said, I wouldn't put it past the players to try something like that, but they'd be in the blast zone because in 5e, when you put an extradimensional object into another, they explode and create a portal to the Astral Plane wherein the people nearby get sucked in. Now, the RAW also state that the objects within the bag are teleported to a random section of the Astral Plane as well. So Lich would be gone but not dead.

So here's my honest thinking. The Lich just takes up residence in the Portable Hole. Maybe he has a portal that is in a chest or something that leads to his lair or even a new lair, but his thinking is now he can study his magics without being bothered by the actual BBEG (an Ancient Black Dragon who recently was resurrected). His thought is, "screw that guy, now I can do my own thing and he can't even find me lolz"
Idk, what do y'all think? Advice has been stellar btw, so thanks.

[Arkhios]

I think that is one of the layers of the nine hells.

Yeah, in fact I think it's the 8th layer, Cania.

Oh, and btw... (regarding another post up-thread)

Spoiler: LITCH vs. LICH

Show

Spoiler: Grappling a Litch

Show

...sorry, couldn't resist!

[N810]

hmm... What if they filled the portable hole with a ton of concrete :/
would be hard to cast spell when you are blind deaf and constrained.

[Xoronis]

One thing that just came to mind, if you want something that's not just for laughs (not that the just for laughs suggestions aren't great), is that once the party finally opens the hole to check on him, he offers them some sort of deal. In exchange for some sort of assistance against the BBEG, they have to run an errand for him, or some small task like that. If they refuse and try to fight him again, he could simply counterspell and dimension door for a little bit to show how outclassed they actually are, and if they refuse to budge just teleport out with a sigh, perhaps a parting comment about how they had his respect but "adventurers will be adventurers, I guess", and then he goes and does his own lichy things.

[Sjappo]

One thing that just came to mind, if you want something that's not just for laughs (not that the just for laughs suggestions aren't great), is that once the party finally opens the hole to check on him, he offers them some sort of deal. In exchange for some sort of assistance against the BBEG, they have to run an errand for him, or some small task like that. If they refuse and try to fight him again, he could simply counterspell and dimension door for a little bit to show how outclassed they actually are, and if they refuse to budge just teleport out with a sigh, perhaps a parting comment about how they had his respect but "adventurers will be adventurers, I guess", and then he goes and does his own lichy things.

I’ve got this picture in my head with the Pcs trekking through some woods and one backpack going “yoohoo, are you ready to talk yet?”

[Calimehter]

The lich is busy taking advantage of a surprise presented opportunity by attuning a 250gp tuning fork (as a Lich who knows the Plane Shift spell, he has a few of these in his robes, maybe even just "re-keying" that one to the Plane of Water that he never used and cant believe he ever thought was a good idea) to the pocket dimension inside the portable hole, which allows him to come back whenever he wants.

It's like having a Demiplane whose opening never "expires" and stays in the hands of a bunch of PCs who have a knack for getting that Demiplane opening into all sorts of places that would otherwise be tricky (or at least take more effort) for a Lich to get into. . . with the proper and discreet nudging from the Lich from time to time, of course.

Lots of possibilities with that route