Are Martials really that screwed?

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd argue blaster warlocks are pretty simple too.

Sorry, I had meant to say that there are some fairly simple means of using magic, but there isn't an inverse. A Battlemaster or a Paladin might be as complex as...I dunno, a level 5 caster at most, and those are the pinnacle of martial complexity.

[Morty]

I think rogue's Cunning Action makes them one of the most interesting martial classes to play, to be honest. You can be constantly dancing in and out of melee, give yourself bursts of speed, or hiding to gain advantage. If you're "sneak attack[ing] a lot" and that's it, I feel like you're missing what makes them fun to play. Also, a rogue can use illusions too.

Cunning Action does two things only - it lets you run around fast and hide. So it's just a part of the "sneak attack forever" strategy. I've heard the "but Cunning Action!" argument many times by now and I've chalked it up to wishful thinking. There's always some nebulous and unspecified things I could be doing with it.

A rogue can use illusions... if they take the Arcane Trickster subclass, because if you want to do something interesting, you need spells.

[DevilMcam]

I have played about a dozen campaigns of 5e and have played a martial in something like 8 of them.
but I have played a character that was only good at combat in exactly 0 of them.
And I have played 1 character that was not able of doing magic tricks.

Beeing a Martial doesn't meen you can't have spellcasting.
There are sevaral races with innate spellcasting, several races with flight (Protector aasimar are AL legal and can fly from level 3) and some have climbing speed. And if feats are on the table, then magic initiate and ritual caster are a thing.
It's not because you play a martial that you have to be a big brawn no brain facepuncher.

Beside have yet to see a situation where a well prepared martial can not use a mundane way to solve a problem a wizard would with magic. Maybe it's not the type of character you want to play, I can get behind that.

[prabe]

I can definitely agree with that. The concern I have is that there isn't really a balance to that. If you want to play something simple, you have to play a martial. If you want to play something complex, you have to play a caster.

I dunno. You can play a Warlock as essentially an archer-type, and once you make your spells-known choices a Sorcerer or even a Bard is pretty straightforward to play--one of the new-to-the-game players in one of my campaigns has played a single-class Lore Bard to Level 12. Battlemaster has some tactical decision-making and extra resource-management compared to the Champion, the latter especially if an adventure turns into some sort of gantlet where no one can rest (which also wears on casters; it's happening in a campaign I'm running). (No, I'm not using gantlet-style adventures to "prove" martials aren't screwed.)

Clerics are relatively straightforward to play, too. There are a few obvious choices and tactics, and deciding among them isn't always easy, but it's not as though any of the options is likely to be actively bad (once you realize how in-combat healing has been nerfed). Druids are more complicated, with the Wild Shape options.

The issue is that there's a big difference between the playstyles of a martial vs. a caster. We already have a few options for simple ranged characters, if you count Dex Fighters and Warlocks. But what if you wanted to play a complex melee martial?

Look at the Champion. Made for simplicity. But does it on par with something a bit less simple, like the Battlemaster? Does it make up for its lack of options in some way?

Is there that big of a difference between Champions and Battlemasters in terms of power level? Probably not big enough to ruin a game, but still worth mention and addressing.

Sure, but maybe someone plays a caster so they can blast lots of enemies at once, and they'll accept the complexity in order to do AoE stuff. Rogues are also more flexible in combat, with Cunning Action and whatever subclass features they end up with.

I have to admit that I kinda like Champion, and I kinda don't like Battlemaster, but I recognize that those attitudes are ... uncommon. In an ideal world, there'd be things you could do involving good tactics that weren't dependent on having class features to maximize; obviously, 5E isn't an ideal world.

[AdAstra]

I generally like having magic up my sleeve, and I do think that casters get way more tools for being clever, but a whole lot of these complaints about Martials not being able to do anything feel more like a failure of playstyle than of class power (on both the player and DM side). And that's not a disparity that can be solved no matter how many magic powers you layer on.

When I was playing a Paladin in Curse of Strahd or Lost Mines of Phandelver, I don't think I had any magic that wasn't combat oriented or Find Steed, and I can't even remember if I'd ever cast a spell outside of a fight or the preparation for one. I was miserly with my spell slots and spells prepared, for good reason, and that drove a lot of creative thinking. I was still an extremely active part of the story, arguably the most active character in general. I had a lot of impact on the story because I used my skills, I asked if I could do things even if I wasn't sure I could, I explored unconventional angles of interaction, I tried to create hooks that the DM could exploit to make things interesting (usually in a good way, but even a bad way can still be fun), and I made basically all the battle plans. I threw seeds at birds, and I ended up with a girlfriend and some powerful allies (after some poetry and a few checks). I looted fancy dresses that we later used as a bargaining chip and I might use again later. I accidentally found a magic mirror because I was using it to smash open windows for fun. I made plans, I gave people suggestions, and I had fun in a way that could be bounced off of by the DM. The magic? That was for bashing heads and having fun with my summoned Worg. If anything, if I had tried to use magic for most of my problems, I probably would've been disappointed, and I would've been less effective in combat due to using limited spell slots and preparations on noncombat spells.

The thing with spells is that, barring people trying to get cheeky with them, they're safe. You have a list of things you know you can do, because the spell description says so. You usually don't have to ask, you just fit the spell into the spell-shaped hole. But if you apply some basic logic, you can also use some of the other tools the game gives you, like crowbars, battering rams, rope, oil, acid, distilled spirits (not an actual item, but something that very few DMs would say doesn't exist or can't be bought), pitons, ball bearings, caltrops, food, water, tinderboxes, the entire skill system, etc. It's also usually easier to get a DM to sign on to these uses, because most people are familiar enough with these items in real life to understand how they might be used.

Is it enough to bridge the caster/martial disparity? Not really, no, since most casters can use the same tools. But martials are not screwed when it comes to taking part in the story, not by a long shot.

[Xervous]

So in other words martials have to ask for permission while casters can demand a resolution. Picking fighter gives you 0 special things for interacting with the plot that aren’t common pool. You are reliant on the DM for plot involvement and have no narrative overrides you can attempt.

[DevilMcam]

That's more or less the case yes.
Martial don't get things that aren't common pool, and caster don't get things that are needed.
You have as much narratives overrides you can attempt though. Some plot element that is 100% mudane proof is sure to be as much magically warded.

[Reevh]

Sorry, I had meant to say that there are some fairly simple means of using magic, but there isn't an inverse. A Battlemaster or a Paladin might be as complex as...I dunno, a level 5 caster at most, and those are the pinnacle of martial complexity.

Yeah, that's probably fair.

[Willie the Duck]

In your experience, at the table, without signifigant homebrewing or buffing, have you ever felt that martials in 5e are actually suffering in any way?

I ask cos I havent. I run a game for 8 people, and the Elf Fighter Sharpshooter is far and away the most powerful threat to my monsters. The Bard comes close, because even if his spell whiffs he still usually has something to do. But the Cleric, Artificer, Sorc, and Druid are not overshadowing the Paladin, Ranger (Beastmaster ranger! though the UA one) Blood Hunter or Battlemaster Fighter at all.

I play as a Wizard, transmuter, with a Paladin and a Cleric. We all feel like we are running on an even keel basically. I actually feel like my wizard was overshadowed until i hit 5th level, except for the utility of my familiar.

But half the posts on here are about martials getting screwed.

Now, what I dont care about, is math. Wizards can do on average 576032DPR while fighters...not interested. That assumes ideal scenarios, which in my experience are rarely present in DnD. Something as simple as the Wizard targetting the wrong monster with the wrong spell can gimp their contribution to a fight, same as martials.

What I do care about is your actual experience, because whether or not martials suck is a truly subjective idea. Even if objectively worse, they can still be, subjectively, better.

Here is my take -- the game is based on a number of assumptions. If you move away from the assumptions, and don't make any changes to balance against those, then one or another class or build or type of character or strategy or the like probably will be favored.

1. The first is the 6-8 encounter 'workday.' Yes, we get it, the whole 6-8 encounter day with ~2 short rests is something of a pipe dream. It doesn't help that playstyles and the fiction that inspire the game tend towards a bimodal distribution (with what the designers landed on being something in the rarely-seen intermodal area). Still, if you are finding yourself outside that encounter framework, there is plenty of material in the game rules for how to address that. If you choose not to, then certain rest-recharge mechanics will be favored and disfavored.
2. The next is that combat will be important. On this thread there is a lot of chatter about what a fighter-type can do out of combat. But honestly I really don't understand why one would play D&D, as opposed to one of the thousands of other TTRPGs out there, if combat was not a big part of the game. Hit Points, armor class, and at-will damage are supposed to be big game benefits.
3. The third is that a lot of the non-combat challenges will be things that spells will not fix faster than swords. As Max pointed out, a lot of the supposed non-combat spells aren't. As others have pointed out, Knock has some real limitation to it. Looking at the social spells and how they've changed from previous editions, they too don't solve a lot of social problems. Thus you either have to use the skill system, or heck the non-skill systems (basic doing things, like moving stuff from A to B or whatever).
4. Another, often unspoken, assumption is that NPC spellcasters are available with services for sale back in town. This is because, caster vs. martial be damned, "non-magic" is screwed. Which is to say, if you want all problems being solvable without magic (or want to play as some character or culture who shuns magic), it isn't happening. There are curses and diseases which can only be cured with magic; death is curable by magic; transferring between planes of existence happens via magic. Outside of ready access/'will they make it in time?', however, it isn't that much of a big deal to do this ('sorry you have to sit on your hands for a while, but no one wanted to play a cleric, so you stay dead until we get back to town. Do you want to run the NPC for a while?')
5. Another is that magic items happen. Again, I know, supposedly the game works without them. It doesn't work without them without changing the game balance. Especially if you still want to have all the options still open. Magic weapons for fighting resistant/immune creatures being the obvious ones, but also boots of flying, potions of water breathing, rods of lordly swiss armies, etc. There are magical solutions to all sorts of problems, and it isn't just (or even mostly) the spellcasters who are going to have them.

Assuming you adhere to, or have modified the game in response to not adhering to, these assumptions... it still isn't perfect. There are things that have not been fixed. Minionmancy (especially planar ones) is over powered; shapechange is overpowered; carefully planned use of simulacrum (even if the DM overrules and Wish shenanigans ) is overpowered. Pretty much any spell that basically gives you another character/sub-character to run (/is working towards your best interests), or lets you swap out a character for an entry in the MM is incredibly hard to balance around and they certainly didn't do it perfectly here. Outside of those specific caveats (and undoubtedly a few I'm not thinking of right now), it's close. Closer than most any other edition has come, 4e notwithstanding (although there are a lot of other assumptions in the TSR era which make this a very convoluted picture). Suffice to say, you can go through very large swathes of the game without running into a major problem, excepting of course that your DM has to adjust for how their game deviates from the expectations (workday in particular).

[Xervous]

That's more or less the case yes.
Martial don't get things that aren't common pool, and caster don't get things that are needed.
You have as much narratives overrides you can attempt though. Some plot element that is 100% mudane proof is sure to be as much magically warded.

I strongly doubt this is an absolute. DMs can block martials by happenstance or simple inaction while it takes active effort to deny various caster sourced effects.

Consider the plot override of “I want to be the star this encounter, I am expending spells accordingly to ensure the BBEG and his minions meet their end. Fighter can run cleanup duty afterwards.” There are varying amounts of even just combat options for a martial to expend in pursuit of the spotlight and few, if any approach the potency of caster options. If I want to cast web in a way that trivializes the encounter the martial doesn’t have any comparable option.

You know what else rolls numbers and acts as a set piece? NPCs

[Reevh]

Assuming you adhere to, or have modified the game in response to not adhering to, these assumptions... it still isn't perfect. There are things that have not been fixed. Minionmancy (especially planar ones) is over powered; shapechange is overpowered; carefully planned use of simulacrum (even if the DM overrules and Wish shenanigans ) is overpowered.

Minionmancy is effectively outlawed at my table because in large part because it slows down the game and adds to the GM's overhead, but also because of its overpoweredness. However, even that's not a spellcasting limitation. My current martial fighter, for example, has a squad of Githyanki soldiers that report to him, as well as a mentor who might support him. Our barbarian is best friends with a dwarf who believes himself invincible, and he's brought that friend along on several bigtime fights.

As for Shapechange and Simulacrum, they're spells you use at outrageously high levels when fighters are swinging 4-5 attacks per round before even considering the two action surges. Everyone is overpowered past level 17. Those are the "**** it, enjoy your godhood" levels that few people actually reach.

But I enjoyed your post.

[Skylivedk]

I have played about a dozen campaigns of 5e and have played a martial in something like 8 of them.
but I have played a character that was only good at combat in exactly 0 of them.
And I have played 1 character that was not able of doing magic tricks.

Beeing a Martial doesn't meen you can't have spellcasting.
There are sevaral races with innate spellcasting, several races with flight (Protector aasimar are AL legal and can fly from level 3) and some have climbing speed. And if feats are on the table, then magic initiate and ritual caster are a thing.
It's not because you play a martial that you have to be a big brawn no brain facepuncher.

Beside have yet to see a situation where a well prepared martial can not use a mundane way to solve a problem a wizard would with magic. Maybe it's not the type of character you want to play, I can get behind that.

Raise Dead? Keeping tabs on multiple locations? Communication with creatures from other planes?

I can honestly list enough examples that I am not sure if you didn't mean it the other way around: I have a hard time finding a situation solvable by a classic martial that wouldn't get destroyed by a well-prepared (Nuclear) Wizard.

I agree with skylivedk here, just want to explicitly note that I consider stuff like Planar Binding and Clone combat-oriented. If you *do* decide to solve your grandmother's legal problems with brute force by starting a war with the modrons, and if you happen to be a high-level PC, a spellcaster who can generate their own army will have many advantages over a fighter who has to recruit or negotiate for an army, but I consider that combat-oriented stuff, and starting wars has a cost and is not ideal (especially if the modrons were previously your potential allies against a bigger looming threat).



One setting conceit that I like is that using magic leaves identifiable marks on the spellcaster ("Mythmaker") and also breaks Reality in the local vicinity so that other Myths like trolls, ghosts, vampires, and witches can now exist here.

Result: spellcasters aren't welcome in Real society, only on the fringes of civilization where things already aren't Real.

I'd say Planar Binding is both. Get that Fey (Korred) that summons a Galeb Duhr which makes two copies of itself... You know have a workforce of 4 workers each with +20 strength, 3 that are immune to exhaustion and 1 with stone shape. All you basically need is to invent enough socialism to create a Union and you can run a construction crew ;)

The 4 of course double as pretty decent melee combatants/stone shields because balance.

Personally, I've gotten around that by introducing a bit of lore. The planes don't take kindly to slavery.

[AdAstra]

So in other words martials have to ask for permission while casters can demand a resolution. Picking fighter gives you 0 special things for interacting with the plot that aren’t common pool. You are reliant on the DM for plot involvement and have no narrative overrides you can attempt.

Spells don't really qualify as narrative overrides. A DM can do just as much to render a spell impotent as they can to render any action impotent. To claim that the DM can't do anything about a spellcasting PC is bogus. The point is that DMs are typically loathe to do so unless it breaks the game, but that applies to mundane actions as well. For the same reason that DMs don't give every NPC Anti-Magic Field artifacts, most DMs aren't going to stop you from doing things like talking to people, coming up with plans, and in general having fun with the game without magic. And realistically, those mundane actions are the meat of most games, not spells.

[djreynolds]

I just watched all the avenger movies in a row. It was fun to see the changes of the characters and their evolution. More on them in second...

D&D isn't about being the character with an answer to every question, rather a party.

If you want to have a party of 5 multiclassed caster combos... It's fine.

You could have 10 Ironmen in your party.

And an armored wizard can probably do as well as an armored fighter in holding the line and tanking for the group.

Especially with BB and GFB a 2nd level wizard hits just as hard as a 2nd level fighter can.

But D&D isn't about this for everyone at the table. And just like the avengers there are different roles to be filled.

Not everyone wants to be Thor or Ironman or Captain America. And really a team can only have one Ironman. And not because of players having vast amount of redundant skills and powers. Because everyone will be butting heads about who's in charge and who's turn it was to kill everything with a fireball.

D&D is a balance of skills and powers and egos. And even in a party you will see little divides and "civil wars" when half the party agrees and the other half doesn't.

Honestly think about these marvel movies and could a party handle 2 Tony Starks and now think of a party of 5 of them. It's too much ego.

[Asisreo1]

Raise Dead? Keeping tabs on multiple locations? Communication with creatures from other planes?

I can honestly list enough examples that I am not sure if you didn't mean it the other way around: I have a hard time finding a situation solvable by a classic martial that wouldn't get destroyed by a well-prepared (Nuclear) Wizard.

Need to plane shift? Find a portal to the astral plane. Need to send an interplanar message? Send an interplanar messenger. Need to communicate with the dead? Don't kill them before they give answers. Need to clone yourself? Don't use protection.

Don't forget everything a Wizard nukes is one against the amount of spells they can cast. A wizard's most powerful spells are never available more than 3 times a day, once at tier 4. So you can certainly cast Gate to go directly to the Ancient Dragon's lair, but you're going to wish you could wish soon after. And that's the thing. Even if we were to conglomerate all of the "game-breaking" spells as a total time wizards can do such a thing, it only lasts 6 times in the whole adventuring day at level 20. (I put 6th+ to this because the game itself puts a high emphasis on these spells, as they're nonrecoverable.)

A tier 4 adventure isn't a walk through the woods or a dungeon with scary pit traps or something. This is where they are invading the evil Storm Giant Quintessent king and his entourage in the border between the water and air planes. The cloud giants are the peasant minions and the boss battle will probably involve the one king, 1 storm giant guard, and an Adult Blue Dragon innate spellcaster. That's me being conservative about the CR, too. You're going to need to whether thunderstorms that break concentration. Winds that prevent flying. Lightning that could randomly strike you. The clouds pull on your feet, making them difficult terrain. The traps are electric currents paralyzing anything that fails the DC 20 con save and doing 10d10 damage if they stay too long or a Glyph of Warding with Storm of Vengeance centered on it.

[Skylivedk]

Spells don't really qualify as narrative overrides. A DM can do just as much to render a spell impotent as they can to render any action impotent. To claim that the DM can't do anything about a spellcasting PC is bogus. The point is that DMs are typically loathe to do so unless it breaks the game, but that applies to mundane actions as well. For the same reason that DMs don't give every NPC Anti-Magic Field artifacts, most DMs aren't going to stop you from doing things like talking to people, coming up with plans, and in general having fun with the game without magic. And realistically, those mundane actions are the meat of most games, not spells.

I keep seeing this argument and I don't get it, because this is not something that martials have in a way that casters don't. Quite the opposite:
Talking with people: Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock
Guessing their intention: druid, cleric
Coming up with plans (especially if you play your mental stats): Wizards

Need to plane shift? Find a portal to the astral plane. Need to send an interplanar message? Send an interplanar messenger. Need to communicate with the dead? Don't kill them before they give answers. Need to clone yourself? Don't use protection.

So two of your answers still involved magic and the last doesn't accomplish the same thing at all. Reproducing maybe allows you to reroll, but I've yet to see your offspring inherit your levels etc.

If we look past that portals are magical, it's still much much easier to find them with magic.

Don't forget everything a Wizard nukes is one against the amount of spells they can cast. A wizard's most powerful spells are never available more than 3 times a day, once at tier 4. So you can certainly cast Gate to go directly to the Ancient Dragon's lair, but you're going to wish you could wish soon after. And that's the thing. Even if we were to conglomerate all of the "game-breaking" spells as a total time wizards can do such a thing, it only lasts 6 times in the whole adventuring day at level 20. (I put 6th+ to this because the game itself puts a high emphasis on these spells, as they're nonrecoverable.)

No, if I'm playing the Nuclear Wizard I can kill the ancient dragon in a round. Maybe two if I'm taking it slow.

If you aren't using the spellcasting variant of dragons, forcecage and sickening radiance will do nicely. Pop the two spells, pop the corn, enjoy.

You also don't address my most important point: spells like Planar Binding, True Polymorph and Magic Mouth (for an early example) allow the Spellcaster to build resources across days with rechargeable resources. Fighters don't have that.

And even then... Why would I throw away my best spell for transport?

If we look past that tier 4 adventure isn't a walk through the woods or a dungeon with scary pit traps or something. This is where they are invading the evil Storm Giant Quintessent king and his entourage in the border between the water and air planes. The cloud giants are the peasant minions and the boss battle will probably involve the one king, 1 storm giant guard, and an Adult Blue Dragon innate spellcaster. That's me being conservative about the CR, too. You're going to need to whether thunderstorms that break concentration. Winds that prevent flying. Lightning that could randomly strike you. The clouds pull on your feet, making them difficult terrain. The traps are electric currents paralyzing anything that fails the DC 20 con save and doing 10d10 damage if they stay too long or a Glyph of Warding with Storm of Vengeance centered on it.

What's your point?
One, it almost sounds like you are lecturing me on tier 4 play. It's literally all I play currently
Two, a Planar Bound army can eradicate that encounter and cost no spell slots for that day.
Three, a full caster will still be able to either: manage that encounter a lot better; nuke and flee (good luck doing that with a Fighter), nuke, die and wake up in a Clone (not rerolling as your own kid).
Four, so traps that you can clear with Dispel Magic is somehow a point against full casters?


I'm not saying martials are useless. They're just limited and as the amount of class features continue to increase in quantity and quality on full casters, they don't (to anything near the same degree) on a martial.

[MaxWilson]

I'd say Planar Binding is both. Get that Fey (Korred) that summons a Galeb Duhr which makes two copies of itself... You know have a workforce of 4 workers each with +20 strength, 3 that are immune to exhaustion and 1 with stone shape. All you basically need is to invent enough socialism to create a Union and you can run a construction crew ;)

The 4 of course double as pretty decent melee combatants/stone shields because balance.

Spoiler: Off topic, Korreds and elementals

Show

The Galeb Duhr only lasts for 1 hour, though, and the animated boulders only last for 1 minute. They're pretty useless for construction. Even for combat, don't let that nominal "CR 5" deceive you, the Earth Elemental is actually better than a Galeb Duhr, especially if the PCs have access to healing magics like Aura of Vitality.

Once you consider the Galeb Duhr's low damage output and the action economy cost of Animate, the short duration (obviating precasting), and need for concentration (hit the Galeb Duhr ~5 times and the animated boulders go back to being just boulders), the Galeb Duhr winds up doing less damage, being usually less mobile (no Earth Glide, relies on rolling), and being less durable than the Earth Elemental.

Minionmancy is effectively outlawed at my table because in large part because it slows down the game and adds to the GM's overhead, but also because of its overpoweredness. However, even that's not a spellcasting limitation. My current martial fighter, for example, has a squad of Githyanki soldiers that report to him, as well as a mentor who might support him. Our barbarian is best friends with a dwarf who believes himself invincible, and he's brought that friend along on several bigtime fights.

As for Shapechange and Simulacrum, they're spells you use at outrageously high levels when fighters are swinging 4-5 attacks per round before even considering the two action surges. Everyone is overpowered past level 17. Those are the "**** it, enjoy your godhood" levels that few people actually reach.

But I enjoyed your post.

My solution to all forms of minionmancy is the same: they get a share of the XP proportional to levels/CR (rounded up to minimum of 1), even if they can't use it.

Bringing along one CR 3 Githyanki probably won't cost the level 11 party much XP, but bringing along a whole squad of 8 Githyanki will reduce their XP intake by a cool 1/3. It's enough to at least give a rational, in-character reason why the Necromancer doesn't animate his whole maximum horde of undead, in addition to the real player reason of "it bores me and it feels cheap".

What's your point?
One, it almost sounds like you are lecturing me on tier 4 play. It's literally all I play currently
Two, a Planar Bound army can eradicate that encounter and cost no spell slots for that day.
Three, a full caster will still be able to either: manage that encounter a lot better; nuke and flee (good luck doing that with a Fighter), nuke, die and wake up in a Clone (not rerolling as your own kid).
Four, so traps that you can clear with Dispel Magic is somehow a point against full casters?

I'm not saying martials are useless. They're just limited and as the amount of class features continue to increase in quantity and quality on full casters, they don't (to anything near the same degree) on a martial.

This bit in bold is one of many reasons I use old-school MR instead of 5E-style Magic Resistance/Legendary Resistance, as well as spellcasting dragons (adults/ancients and some young adults all with 1-19 levels in Dragon Sorcerer). The dragon may go down under the hordes of Air Elementals and Nycaloths, but he'll "pop" some of the Planar Bindings in the process, and more likely he'll pop some of them and then Disengage + fly out of Counterspell range + Quickened Teleport away and plot his revenge proactively.

RAW + Planar Binding leads to overpowered boringness, IMO.

[djreynolds]

Wizards are supposed to become powerful. That's the game.

But a smart wizard wants a group of individuals to save his/her spells and resources.

A wizard doesn't need another wizard in the party. What a wizards wants is not wasting spells when someone else can do it.

And wizard definitely doesn't want another wizard in the party vying for power.

A wizard can craft whatever in magic items for his trusted party members.

Casters are paranoid and egotistical. There are only so many high level casters because they probably kill each other off. Half of their spells are for contingency and defense.

Martials are really team players.

And a great caster understands the value of well put together martial character who can protect them regardless of resources. And this valued and trusted fighter isn't stepping on their toes.

The other reality is a caster really understands it is going to take a long time to become powerful

[Asisreo1]

So two of your answers still involved magic and the last doesn't accomplish the same thing at all. Reproducing maybe allows you to reroll, but I've yet to see your offspring inherit your levels etc.

At tier 4 play, nothing can escape magic. Nearly everything is magical at that point. Most martials are imbued with a type of magic as well. They aren't actually magical but clearly supernatural. Like being able to continue fighting after taking otherwise lethal wounds around 6 times while having better natural durability than elephants or even adult dragons as a barbarian or the ability to attack so quickly, powerfully, and accurately that they could take down a Giant Constrictor Snake without putting out much exertion at all.

If we look past that portals are magical, it's still much much easier to find them with magic.

Just talk to an NPC, they should know where the closest astral portal is.

No, if I'm playing the Nuclear Wizard I can kill the ancient dragon in a round. Maybe two if I'm taking it slow.

If you aren't using the spellcasting variant of dragons, forcecage and sickening radiance will do nicely. Pop the two spells, pop the corn, enjoy.

A bit reductionist. An ancient dragon is at least 20x20, the minimum for a cage. Meaning a DM can rightfully rule it's too large. However, even if you can imprison it in the cage, the bars are wide enough to let the ancient dragon's breath through. It also has wing attacks in-between your turn. Most metallic dragons can shape change into something that can squeeze between the bars.

That's nothing to say about lair actions, which would completely screw the strategy up anyways.

[MaxWilson]

A wizard doesn't need another wizard in the party.

Sure he does. :) If they level up together, it roughly doubles the number of spells they can each have in their spellbook, and there are some great combos that take two Concentrations to pull off. Wall of Force + Sickening Radiance, or Polymorph + Stoneskin.

And wizard definitely doesn't want another wizard in the party vying for power.

A wizard can craft whatever in magic items for his trusted party members.

Casters are paranoid and egotistical. There are only so many high level casters because they probably kill each other off. Half of their spells are for contingency and defense.

That's exactly why having another wizard and more spells in your spellbook is great.

[Luccan]

I would be interested in someone solving the puzzle that is "how do you make martials have complete parity with casters" that didn't amount to "make them the same" or at least so similar as for the difference to be mostly semantics. That was what 4e did, that's essentially what ToB tried, and that's kinda what the "give them a bunch of magic items" suggestion is doing. And that's a perfectly acceptable solution, but it also isn't what everyone wants because some of them (and other people who aren't bothered by any disparity, can't forget them just because they don't currently have a problem) also want the martials to be simpler and/or still "normals" in comparison.

[Skylivedk]

Spoiler: Off topic, Korreds and elementals

Show

The Galeb Duhr only lasts for 1 hour, though, and the animated boulders only last for 1 minute. They're pretty useless for construction. Even for combat, don't let that nominal "CR 5" deceive you, the Earth Elemental is actually better than a Galeb Duhr, especially if the PCs have access to healing magics like Aura of Vitality.

Once you consider the Galeb Duhr's low damage output and the action economy cost of Animate, the short duration (obviating precasting), and need for concentration (hit the Galeb Duhr ~5 times and the animated boulders go back to being just boulders), the Galeb Duhr winds up doing less damage, being usually less mobile (no Earth Glide, relies on rolling), and being less durable than the Earth Elemental.

Point taken on Earth Elemental Vs Galeb Duhr's and on me over-selling the construction crew; I'd say the main point still stands: Planar Binding can add tons of non-combat power (and often both at the same time).

My solution to all forms of minionmancy is the same: they get a share of the XP proportional to levels/CR (rounded up to minimum of 1), even if they can't use it.

Bringing along one CR 3 Githyanki probably won't cost the level 11 party much XP, but bringing along a whole squad of 8 Githyanki will reduce their XP intake by a cool 1/3. It's enough to at least give a rational, in-character reason why the Necromancer doesn't animate his whole maximum horde of undead, in addition to the real player reason of "it bores me and it feels cheap".

do you count the XP-entitled from start of combat or end? I could see counting those who start the battle

This bit in bold is one of many reasons I use old-school MR instead of 5E-style Magic Resistance/Legendary Resistance, as well as spellcasting dragons. The dragon may go down under the hordes of Air Elementals and Nycaloths, but he'll "pop" some of the Planar Bindings in the process, and more likely he'll pop some of them and then Disengage + fly out of Counterspell range + Quickened Teleport away and plot his revenge proactively.

RAW + Planar Binding leads to overpowered boringness, IMO.

Co-sign. It has been my main point in this thread, but I don't feel the "martials are equal"-side even bother addressing this. True Polymorph is slightly less bonkers since the created dragons won't be enslaved, but still...

Wizards are supposed to become powerful. That's the game.

Yeah, I know that's the legacy. I personally hate this part of the design. I find it to be lazy and bad design to have classes have vastly different power curves. Ie. I don't like that the EK starts so meh and the reasoning is that they become a lot stronger later.

But a smart wizard wants a group of individuals to save his/her spells and resources.

A wizard doesn't need another wizard in the party. What a wizards wants is not wasting spells when someone else can do it.

And wizard definitely doesn't want another wizard in the party vying for power.

A wizard can craft whatever in magic items for his trusted party members.

Casters are paranoid and egotistical. There are only so many high level casters because they probably kill each other off. Half of their spells are for contingency and defense.

Martials are really team players.

Everything you mention here seems extremely campaign, party and player dependent.

The other reality is a caster really understands it is going to take a long time to become powerful

Ref my first point, but also: not really. It takes a while before they're so far ahead it's hard to compare the classes (level 13?)

At tier 4 play, nothing can escape magic. Nearly everything is magical at that point. Most martials are imbued with a type of magic as well. They aren't actually magical but clearly supernatural. Like being able to continue fighting after taking otherwise lethal wounds around 6 times while having better natural durability than elephants or even adult dragons as a barbarian or the ability to attack so quickly, powerfully, and accurately that they could take down a Giant Constrictor Snake without putting out much exertion at all.


Just talk to an NPC, they should know where the closest astral portal is.

Why? I mean besides your DM being friendly. And again, how does this have anything to do with either martials mechanical support OR preparation that the caster can't undertake? How can you be guaranteed a portal and also have it go the right place? Your example to me is exactly what I mean by the DM having to fit the fiction in favour of the martials not vice-versa.

A bit reductionist. An ancient dragon is at least 20x20, the minimum for a cage. Meaning a DM can rightfully rule it's too large. However, even if you can imprison it in the cage, the bars are wide enough to let the ancient dragon's breath through. It also has wing attacks in-between your turn. Most metallic dragons can shape change into something that can squeeze between the bars.

Rightfully? Rule 0 sure, but otherwise no, not as far as I have ever seen in any materials. Creatures don't take up the entire space they take up in 5 ft increments; look at humans. The space taken also represents a bit of dodging and weaving.

What difference does the breath make? Just move out of range. What does wing attack help? I mean, you already have a magical apex predator trapped; hopefully you rp enough of that int score to not go closer AFTER you have essentially won the battle.

That's nothing to say about lair actions, which would completely screw the strategy up anyways.

No, just move away. It's that simple. Ie. for the ancient blue dragon (last I killed) the lair actions are both depending on sight and rather inconsequential. Looking at black dragons, it's the same story. Charm from the green dragon's lair can maybe make a difference. Red dragons have slightly better lair actions, but definitely manageable.

I'm super happy my DM started giving dragons spells for the very same reason.

Good point with shapechange for the metallic dragons. Didn't think much of them: I normally don't aim to kill them since I've rarely been in evil groups. At least not groups that would want the in fiction world to think that.

[AdAstra]

I keep seeing this argument and I don't get it, because this is not something that martials have in a way that casters don't. Quite the opposite:
Talking with people: Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock
Guessing their intention: druid, cleric
Coming up with plans (especially if you play your mental stats): Wizards


So two of your answers still involved magic and the last doesn't accomplish the same thing at all. Reproducing maybe allows you to reroll, but I've yet to see your offspring inherit your levels etc.

If we look past that portals are magical, it's still much much easier to find them with magic.

No, if I'm playing the Nuclear Wizard I can kill the ancient dragon in a round. Maybe two if I'm taking it slow.

If you aren't using the spellcasting variant of dragons, forcecage and sickening radiance will do nicely. Pop the two spells, pop the corn, enjoy.

You also don't address my most important point: spells like Planar Binding, True Polymorph and Magic Mouth (for an early example) allow the Spellcaster to build resources across days with rechargeable resources. Fighters don't have that.

And even then... Why would I throw away my best spell for transport?



What's your point?
One, it almost sounds like you are lecturing me on tier 4 play. It's literally all I play currently
Two, a Planar Bound army can eradicate that encounter and cost no spell slots for that day.
Three, a full caster will still be able to either: manage that encounter a lot better; nuke and flee (good luck doing that with a Fighter), nuke, die and wake up in a Clone (not rerolling as your own kid).
Four, so traps that you can clear with Dispel Magic is somehow a point against full casters?


I'm not saying martials are useless. They're just limited and as the amount of class features continue to increase in quantity and quality on full casters, they don't (to anything near the same degree) on a martial.

And I'm not saying that martials are equal to casters. What I'm saying is that martials aren't "screwed". Most of the things PCs do to advance the story are things that anyone can do, spellcasters can usually just do it in fewer steps or with less outside help.

[MaxWilson]

I would be interested in someone solving the puzzle that is "how do you make martials have complete parity with casters" that didn't amount to "make them the same" or at least so similar as for the difference to be mostly semantics. That was what 4e did, that's essentially what ToB tried, and that's kinda what the "give them a bunch of magic items" suggestion is doing. And that's a perfectly acceptable solution, but it also isn't what everyone wants because some of them (and other people who aren't bothered by any disparity, can't forget them just because they don't currently have a problem) also want the martials to be simpler and/or still "normals" in comparison.

One big step in the right direction: you do what AD&D does and impose a steep learning curve on spellcasters (weak at low levels) and a lot of restrictions on how usable spells are in combat, e.g. damage disrupts spellcasting, can't move while spellcasting, and make liberal use of monsters that largely or completely ignore spells (e.g. immune to all spells except XYZ, or have a 90% chance to be totally unaffected by any given spell, or create an area of antimagic that suppresses active spell effects and magic items), and make many spell components costly and rare, and require spells to be found during play in old dusty ruins just like magic items, or else researched during play using the gold you found in old dusty ruins.

Edit: oh, and you also make sure wizards have fewer than half as many HP as fighters, and write rules for death and dying such that that really matters. A typical 20th level Archmage in AD&D has 10d4+10 (35) HP, which means he dies to a typical Lightning Bolt (10d6). A 20th level Fighter has 9d10+33 (82.5) HP.

Edit2: and you don't let wizards wear armor while spellcasting. The ease with which multiclassed 5E wizards gain heavy armor + shields proficiency may be 5E's single biggest mistake.

Basically, you play AD&D instead of 5E.

Point taken on Earth Elemental Vs Galeb Duhr's and on me over-selling the construction crew; I'd say the main point still stands: Planar Binding can add tons of non-combat power (and often both at the same time).

Oh, sure, agreed, if you make them build fortifications or something. But 1000 gp can also buy a lot of regular human construction workers. I'm not sure who winds up being cheaper for any given task but I suspect that if Planar Binding is cheaper it's by only a small factor, less than an order of magnitude.

do you count the XP-entitled from start of combat or end? I could see counting those who start the battle

Either. I count whoever was on your side during the battle (not counting Dominated Monsters and such). If you summon 8 wolves who poof out of existence 1 action later when somebody breaks your concentration, sorry, they still get their share of XP. I guess if you re-summoned the same 8 wolves I'd probably be merciful and rule that it's the same 8 wolves summoned back again--DMs exist to make ad hoc rulings.

[Man_Over_Game]

One big step in the right direction: you do what AD&D does and impose a steep learning curve on spellcasters (weak at low levels) and a lot of restrictions on how usable spells are in combat, e.g. damage disrupts spellcasting, can't move while spellcasting, and make liberal use of monsters that largely or completely ignore spells (e.g. immune to all spells except XYZ, or have a 90% chance to be totally unaffected by any given spell, or create an area of antimagic that suppresses active spell effects and magic items), and make many spell components costly and rare, and require spells to be found during play in old dusty ruins just like magic items, or else researched during play using the gold you found in old dusty ruins.

Basically, you play AD&D instead of 5E.

That's kinda how I'd like to see it. If you want to manipulate the world, play the Manipulator. If you want to skill stuff, be a guy with a sword.

Or, at the very least, reward specialists for the bonuses they lack, and treat generalists as backup.

In 5e, the reward for specializing isn't much better than being a master of none, which is why Bards and Clerics are some of the most well-liked classes despite not doing anything particularly better than anyone else.

[Dienekes]

I would be interested in someone solving the puzzle that is "how do you make martials have complete parity with casters" that didn't amount to "make them the same" or at least so similar as for the difference to be mostly semantics. That was what 4e did, that's essentially what ToB tried, and that's kinda what the "give them a bunch of magic items" suggestion is doing. And that's a perfectly acceptable solution, but it also isn't what everyone wants because some of them (and other people who aren't bothered by any disparity, can't forget them just because they don't currently have a problem) also want the martials to be simpler and/or still "normals" in comparison.

As a general idea. Make a group of useful distinct abilities for non-mages, to show mechanically what you can do by having the oratory skills of Mark Antony. The fastest hands in the West. Or competent first aid. That gives distinct repeatable effects not dependent on the pleasure of the GM.

And for the massive game changing effects that can only be done through magic. Instead of giving them all to a subgroup of classes make them only possible after teamwork. There is no astral travel spell. There is only a astral travel gem the team must find and use together. That kind of stuff.

[Sorinth]

I would be interested in someone solving the puzzle that is "how do you make martials have complete parity with casters" that didn't amount to "make them the same" or at least so similar as for the difference to be mostly semantics. That was what 4e did, that's essentially what ToB tried, and that's kinda what the "give them a bunch of magic items" suggestion is doing. And that's a perfectly acceptable solution, but it also isn't what everyone wants because some of them (and other people who aren't bothered by any disparity, can't forget them just because they don't currently have a problem) also want the martials to be simpler and/or still "normals" in comparison.

It will never happen in D&D because there's too much history with certain spells, but the real way to solve that puzzle is to remove or make direct damage spells suck (at least relative to martials attacking).

The only other option is to vastly reduce the amount of spells they can cast a day (Except for cantrips). Warlocks are fairly balanced that way until higher levels when they start getting more slots. When they are limited to 2 slots (and can't short rest after every fight) then they have can't just cast spells to solve problems, they have to be careful and if there's a way to get by without casting the spell they'll go with that option.

[Asisreo1]

Rightfully? Rule 0 sure, but otherwise no, not as far as I have ever seen in any materials. Creatures don't take up the entire space they take up in 5 ft increments; look at humans. The space taken also represents a bit of dodging and weaving.

Gargantuan monsters are capable of occupying spaces larger than 20x20, that's a minimum size for them.

What difference does the breath make? Just move out of range. What does wing attack help? I mean, you already have a magical apex predator trapped; hopefully you rp enough of that int score to not go closer AFTER you have essentially won the battle.

Well, if you've won initiative and used it to cast forcecage, then you'll need to be within range to cast sickening radiance on the next turn. The range for sickening radiance is also the range for Lightning Breath. Besides, this is the case of a solo monster, which never really works anyways.

No, just move away. It's that simple. Ie. for the ancient blue dragon (last I killed) the lair actions are both depending on sight and rather inconsequential. Looking at black dragons, it's the same story. Charm from the green dragon's lair can maybe make a difference. Red dragons have slightly better lair actions, but definitely manageable.

I'm super happy my DM started giving dragons spells for the very same reason.

Good point with shapechange for the metallic dragons. Didn't think much of them: I normally don't aim to kill them since I've rarely been in evil groups. At least not groups that would want the in fiction world to think that.

[MaxWilson]

Gargantuan monsters are capable of occupying spaces larger than 20x20, that's a minimum size for them.

Point of order! According to the PHB's Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces rule, Gargantuan creatures can fit into a 15' x 15' x 15' cube.

Well, if you've won initiative and used it to cast forcecage, then you'll need to be within range to cast sickening radiance on the next turn. The range for sickening radiance is also the range for Lightning Breath. Besides, this is the case of a solo monster, which never really works anyways.

Point of order! Sickening Radiance has a 120' range and an AoE of 30'. In 5E, "range" is the range to the point of origin, so you can actually be 130' away from the dragon and put the spell's point of origin 10' away from the dragon, while still covering the whole Forcecage in Sickening Radiance.

[Skylivedk]

One big step in the right direction: you do what AD&D does and impose a steep learning curve on spellcasters (weak at low levels) and a lot of restrictions on how usable spells are in combat, e.g. damage disrupts spellcasting, can't move while spellcasting, and make liberal use of monsters that largely or completely ignore spells (e.g. immune to all spells except XYZ, or have a 90% chance to be totally unaffected by any given spell, or create an area of antimagic that suppresses active spell effects and magic items), and make many spell components costly and rare, and require spells to be found during play in old dusty ruins just like magic items, or else researched during play using the gold you found in old dusty ruins.

Edit: oh, and you also make sure wizards have fewer than half as many HP as fighters, and write rules for death and dying such that that really matters. A typical 20th level Archmage in AD&D has 10d4+10 (35) HP, which means he dies to a typical Lightning Bolt (10d6). A 20th level Fighter has 9d10+33 (82.5) HP.

Edit2: and you don't let wizards wear armor while spellcasting. The ease with which multiclassed 5E wizards gain heavy armor + shields proficiency may be 5E's single biggest mistake.

Basically, you play AD&D instead of 5E.

AD&D's version of caster progression suffers IMO from the trade I mentioned earlier. High level pointy stick guys. I'd much rather have a system basically built without the current versions of Planar Binding, Simulacrum, True Polymorph etc than have someone be pretty much a burden for twenty sessions and then break reality in two.

Oh, sure, agreed, if you make them build fortifications or something. But 1000 gp can also buy a lot of regular human construction workers. I'm not sure who winds up being cheaper for any given task but I suspect that if Planar Binding is cheaper it's by only a small factor, less than an order of magnitude.

Mount be. Never ran the math in comparison. Even with army building I've preferred having smaller effective squadrons.

Either. I count whoever was on your side during the battle (not counting Dominated Monsters and such). If you summon 8 wolves who poof out of existence 1 action later when somebody breaks your concentration, sorry, they still get their share of XP. I guess if you re-summoned the same 8 wolves I'd probably be merciful and rule that it's the same 8 wolves summoned back again--DMs exist to make ad hoc rulings.

Gargantuan monsters are capable of occupying spaces larger than 20x20, that's a minimum size for them.

Fair. I've had roll20 campaigns (or similar) lately so I might overestimate how often tables would fit ancient dragons in forcecages. It's yet to be an issue I have seen or heard of until now.

Well, if you've won initiative and used it to cast forcecage, then you'll need to be within range to cast sickening radiance on the next turn. The range for sickening radiance is also the range for Lightning Breath. Besides, this is the case of a solo monster, which never really works anyways.

Sickening Radiance is 120 feet with a 30 feet radius. Forcecage is 150 ft. Cast Sickening Radiance 125 feet away.

As for it being a single creature encounter: yes, it's a freaking dragon. And even if the dragon brought friends to ball out on the XP budget, you've just taken a major player out the fight for an hour. Martials can't do that with that kind of certainty nor anything similar. In general, it's really really hard to see what matches the spells of level 6+ amongst high level martials. This is doubly true when taken into consideration that the casters (besides Warlock) can change these high level features during their career