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Thread: most powerful 1st level dip?
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2020-06-20, 03:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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most powerful 1st level dip?
my dm is raw or die, and only allows 1st party books. no dragon magazine, no web content, no homebrew, no house rules, and employs multiclass penalty.
i want to go wizard13. grab improved familiar at 7 for mirror mephit and start casting simulacrum at 13 and wish at 17. i literally dont care about anything else. i repeat i literally dont care about anything else. id go sorcerer if they didnt have the level delay. thats how much i dont care about the other spells wizards have to offer.
improved familiar, simulacrum, wish.
now the problem i see however is that wizards suck at low levels.
unlike druids they got no animal companion. wild cohort is web.
unlike clerics they dont have dmm fell animate or dmm persistent spell
i could grab wild talent, psicrystal affinity, and elemental envoy, and add fiery burst reserve feat on top of that but the geodite doesnt scale into late, and using him at level 4-6 is not smart. psions at least had vigor to keep him alive. wizard has nothing.
the ua necromancer variant that gives me a warrior skeleton, i have to sacrifice my familiar which is no no
so i want to take a dip at 1st level and have that dip carry me until level 7.
i thought about going ur priest, taking a dip in contemplative for the envy domain to cast simulacrum that way and forgetting about wizard after 3 levels + practiced spellcaster, but ur priest's special requirement (need to be trained by another urpriest) is too difficult. my dm said i get access to an ur priest if i can teleport one to me. something like identify transgressor + mirror mephit's simulacrum, but thats a little late of an entry. 7+9=16th level for simulacrum. if im gonna do that might as well go mystic theurge with druid3
so the best i could come up with is druid1 with natural bond to get a medium earth elemental, or one of those 4th level druid animal companions. is there something better? if i could get at least dmm persistent mass lesser vigor id be happy. but no healing on a no dr creature is not gonna last more than an encounter.
so then i thought, lets ask the playground for help. i am reluctant to take more than 1 level of the other class as it delays simulacrum by a level and i doubt mirror mephit simulacrum stays relevant at level 14 or 15. his simulacra hd is 8.
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2020-06-20, 03:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
dip sorcerer.
And since you're now on par with a wizard who takes a dip at 1st level: continue it all the way to lvl17.
I'm actually only parting kidding here. You can take battle sorcerer (UA), for better HP's and bab (which matter at least at lvl 1 in my experience), and still have more spells than a wizard.
Sure there's a lot more powerfull dips at lvl 1, but there really isn't any 1 lvl dip at lvl1 that's going to really help you past lvl 3-ish.
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2020-06-20, 03:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
If you’re determined to dip, it should be mentioned that Dipping Cleric 1 is literally a handbook.
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2020-06-20, 04:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
You could play a stalwart battle sorcerer (CM and UA) and gain 1d8+2+Con HP per level together with medium BaB which is pretty decent with improved familiar. Swap your familiar for an animal companion (half druid level but should help past the initial levels -UA) and then get the familar back using a feat. If you take combat casting at some point you can take levels in Abjurant Champion (CM) which will get you to 16 BaB and Full casting at level 20.
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2020-06-20, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
If that is all you want, and you are not class bound, how about a total different approach with a craft-lock ?
Simulacrum and Wish aren't the spells that you are gonna spam on a daily basis I would assume.
If that if true , using UMD with scrolls becomes a valid option.
Warlock 12 / Chameleon 2 is a good base that can craft almost anything. (the scrolls for simulacrum & wish)
You'll get access to Wish (craft & use) faster due to how the craft-lock works. If you buy scrolls you can cast em very early (both before lvl 13, depending on your UMD/CHA optimization). You can start to craft your own scrolls beginning at lvl 14 (12 if you drop Chameleon and just take Scribe Scrolls as normal feat).
Obtain Familiar feat allows Warlocks to have familiars.
edit:
and if you want to go sorcerer without delay > "DWK Sorcerer with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage" gets Simulacrum and Wish at the same lvls as wizards do.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-06-20 at 07:43 AM.
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2020-06-20, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
You don't want to use Sorcerer because of the delayed spell level acquisition, but you're going to dip a level of something else and delay your spell level acquisition?
Trade the default familiar class feature for a half progression animal companion from UA, and use the feat Obtain Familiar (CA) to get a familiar back. That has the added benefit of counting any Wizard-progressing prestige class levels toward your familiar's benefits as well. You can use Natural Bond to make your animal companion a bit stronger. Once you're high enough level that the companion isn't much help any more, use the PH2 retraining rules to swap that out for something else.
Alternatively, make a Conjurer and trade the default familiar feature for Abrupt Jaunt in PH2, which significantly increases survivability as it allows you to automatically avoid an attack. Again use the feat Obtain Familiar to get that back, in which case prestige classing won't make your familiar weaker.
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2020-06-20, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
If I wanted to spam Simulacrum and Wish, I might look into Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Dweomerkeeper 10 taking Spell Mastery at level 3 and Uncanny Forethought at level 6.
Edit: Even better---take Silverbrow Human Wizard 5/Singer of Concordance 2/Dweomerkeeper 10 with Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought, and Scribe Scroll at level 1, Southern Magician at level 3, <some metamagic> at level 5, Obtain Familiar at level 6, and Improved Familiar at level 9. Use the Animal companion ACF at first level for extra robustness.Last edited by Anthrowhale; 2020-06-20 at 11:59 AM.
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2020-06-20, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
i did read it but i dont think any of them are strong enough to carry me to 7.
interesting! i didnt think about this!
which is better? animal companion + natural bond, or a warrior skeleton with the fire skeleton template?
is elemental companion acf available to this wizard/sorcerer?
sorcerer isnt as strong as a druid. but i didnt know about that ua variant class feature. wizards can grab that too so ill probably go wizard with that.
improved familiar needs arcane caster levels
dweomerkeeper is webcontent.
ok so what i got so far is pure wizard with either fire skeleton warrior or animal companion + natural bond. the first requires 100gp per death and the latter is free.
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2020-06-20, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
Warlocks have an arcane caster level (CA p18).
Dweomerkeeper is in Faiths and Pantheons, a hardcover Forgotten Realms book from WotC. The web article only updates it to 3.5 edition, just like the 3.5 update booklet provides official 3.5 updates for a lot of 3.0 material, and the errata provides official updates to the core rules.
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2020-06-20, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-06-20 at 04:18 PM.
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Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
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2020-06-20, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
ok but warlocks are still bad.
1. item creation cannot ignore the creature component of simulacrum. eschew materials only works on spells you cast not scrolls you scribe. summon component only works with spells you know not spells you umd. if it werent for this id be crafting scrolls of simulacrum using the mirror mephit to provide the spell.
2. animal companion + fiery burst reserve feat i think beats whatever the warlock can do until level 7. correct me if im wrong though.
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2020-06-21, 01:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
1. Imbue Item (II) only cares for the item creation XP and G costs. You don't cast the spell and thus don't need to provide any spell components. Yeah II is that cheesy.
for reference
Originally Posted by Imbue Item
And Scribe Scrolls only cares for "costly material component or an XP cost" anyway. So, it has eschew materials build-in.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see a problem here.
2. A lil complicated comprehension but I'll give it a try:
While Fire Burst (FB) is nice, it also has downsides. Reflex Save to half dmg (or zero with evasion). Can hit up to 4 medium sized targets but most of the time it won't be more than 1-2 (unless DM always clusters enemies because of ...whatsoever ****ty reason..^^). Fire is also one of the more common resistances and immunities iirc.
Eldritch Blast on the other hand is single target until you get some blast shapes (e.g. Eldritch Chain @lvl6 can reliably hit 2 targets). It needs a ranged touch attack, which is barely a problem imho. Since it's untyped dmg, it will always do full dmg. If you take Eldritch Speer you can snipe from really far distance.
And since FB is a feat, maybe we compare it with an early dmg boost for warlocks. The Mortalbane feat gives each of your SLAs 5 times a day 2d6 extra dmg. (ask your DM how he handles Eldritch Blast and his blast shapes and essences. even if he counts all EBs as one it is still worth it imho. you can later add other invocations that all get separate 5/day uses.)
Another good early warlock trick is Summon Swarm. You can kill most low lvl encounters with ease. Since most enemies won't have access to heal to stop the bleeding, they will die to you bat swarms, even if hit only once.
Abuse it with the Hide skill (get racial bonuses e.g. Kobold web enhancement version gives you +8 size modifier).
Or summon rats and stay safe with Spider Climb. Just be creative and swarm you enemies to death^^
Or combine it(rats/spiders) later with Invisibility (if you should take it at lvl 6). Endless possibilities to abuse on low lvl enemies.
Shatter turns into a swiss army knife if you have it at will. Doors, locks whatsoever, doesn't matter.. shatter anything that annoys you or tries to stop you from your dirty evil schemes.
Warlock ain't as squishy as wizards and sorcerers are on low lvls/without buffs. They have light armor, DR and d6 hp which is slightly better than the average rogue (due to the DR). Later you also get energy resistances.
edit: another great option to get at lvl 6 is Flee the Scene. This will turn you into an unstoppable force for your DM. Dimension Door into any buildings at will, rob every mercenary/vendor you come across. Make every rogue sad. Just annoy your DM to death xD
____________________
Imho there is no clear winner. Both have pros and cons. I tried to show some aspects where the warlock can shine, but so can wizards/sorcerers if build and played correct. But the warlock can still be a good alternative choice. Especially if you consider that you get access to those two high lvl spells (from scrolls) earlier than a regular spellcaster would learn em normally.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-06-21 at 01:44 AM.
Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2020-06-21, 02:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
this is very important so lets get everything straight here.
Originally Posted by dmg p.287
your interpretation of imbue item suggests they can ignore all xp and material costs of scrolls. if that is true then thats amazing. if that is not true then this is where the warlock thing ends unfortunately.
i'll analyze what you said for 2. if you're right about warlocks ignoring material components for imbue item.
slight snafu with obtain familiar. for the necromancer variant
A necromancer using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.
but the animal companion:
These variants simply swap one or more of that class's features for one or more class features of another class. A class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects, except as noted below.
...
Lose
Familiar.
or warlock if imbue item lets me ignore material components.
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2020-06-21, 03:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
Yeah seems so. But I stay still by my argument about II.
your interpretation of imbue item suggests they can ignore all xp and material costs of scrolls. if that is true then thats amazing. if that is not true then this is where the warlock thing ends unfortunately.
II implies that you fake the spell being cast, the dmg talks about the spell being triggered:
Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell,
making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
Imho II implies that you only need your UMD roll to fake the spell being cast and care for XP and gold needed to create the item. The hole process of casting the spell (and thus providing its material components and maybe xp expenses) gets faked.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2020-06-21, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-06-21, 04:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
Imho by RAW yeah. But if you abuse it for Wish, watch out for rule book flying in your direction ;)
I can see how many DMs won't be happy about this, like with any other Wish loophole and will houserule it away (while claiming that this can't be RAW). So be careful with this in actual play and consider the optimization lvl of your table and how your DM thinks and feels about this^^
If you would over-abuse this, this will clearly lead to game breaking scenarios.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2020-06-21, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
Ready for the cheddar? I think you are.
Human
Cloistered (Unearthed Arcana) Cleric 1: Knowledge, Deathbound and either Undeath (Afflux from Libris Mortis CE, NE, LE, or N) or Necromancer (The Blood of Vol from ECS LN, LE, or NE) domain.
1) Fell Animate, Divine Metamagic: Fell Animate
2) Necromancer (Unearthed Arcana) Wizard: replace your familiar with an Skeletal Minion, and drop your specialist spell slot for Enhanced Undead. This works with non spell versions of undead creation, such as Fell Animate.
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Originally Posted by SRD Cleric
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9) Master Specialist: Practiced Spellcaster: ClericSpoiler: ReasoningNow your cleric caster level is 5, allowing you to spontaneously cast Inflict Serious Wounds from the above spoiler. You now have access to third level divine spells!
10) Master Specialist
11) Geomancer
12) Geomancer: Chain Spell (I suggest using this on Command Undead)
13) Geomancer
14) Geomancer
15) Geomancer: Craft ContingencySpoiler: Contingency power!Ok we all know that Contingencies are powerful. But there is a specific contingency I suggest, although you can wait until after you get wish if you want. Contingency: "If I die cast Create Undead on my corpse to animate me as a Bone Creature." (Book of Vile Darkness) Bone creature is only a template, and keeps your intelligence. So you'd alter all your HD to d12s, and gain +4 dex. Oh wait your an undead that you created aren't you, that means that Necromancer's stat bonus happens. D12+2s, +4 racial bonus to dex, and a permanent +4 enhancement bonus to str and dex! Oh and Weapon Finesse. Now you just need to figure out a way to die on a Desecrated area (I'm certain that won't be an issue.)
16) Geomancer
17) Geomancer
18) Geomancer: You have ninths! You can cast 7th level spells as divine spells with your int mod and without ASF. But you still have ninths, so you are probably not quite using armor.. or maybe you are. Remember you also have Wish! My feat suggest for this final feat would have to be Spontaneous Domain Caster.
19) Geomancer
20) Geomancer: Honestly, it was just to get 9th level spells as a divine spells, because you like armor.
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2020-06-22, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
The above post is pure cheese, but seriously you should just take sorcerer because it's easier to make it less squishy and you might as well not lose a caster level.
Get your physics out of my D&D!
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2020-06-22, 01:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
Druid3/wizard3/mystic theurge4/arcane Heirophant 10 gets double 9s with no cheese. Effective casting druid17 wizard 17.
Wildshape (for flying ) and natural spell keep you safe at low levels, druid buff spells help too. Get natural bond for a fleshraker dinosaur (pay for the Warbeast or magebred templates if you can), you'll have an animal companion and familiar from levels 4 through 10, then Heirophant combines them into 1 companion familiar.
EDIT actually that doesn’t get wild shape until 12...... go half orc racial substitution Druid so you get Augment Summons for free, that’ll help at low levelsLast edited by DwarvenWarCorgi; 2020-06-22 at 08:16 AM.
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2020-06-22, 09:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
"RAW or die" - what race are you playing? This will matter a lot if the DM applies multiclass penalties.
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2020-06-22, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
I don't think you can be a bone creature; isn't it LA -, not LA 0?
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2020-06-22, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
3.0 books did not mark one way or another until epic level handbook/fiend folio iirc; and even then the 3.0 level adjustment functioned differently than the 3.5 (read the different dmgs)
It is entirely within the dm's adjudication; however in game there is no difference in universe, so the contingency would still work for the character if not the player. I'd expect a conversation between dm and player before the player does do the process.
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2020-06-22, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
It sounds like your game is pretty high op, so I'm a bit surprised you think wizard is weak early game --
Color spray, grease, and web alone should be enough to carry you through pretty much level 5, and Glitterdust/Invisibility/Haste should get you to at least level 7, in my experience. All of those are PHB only spells. Black tentacles and dimension door are also available at 4th. I'd say haste on two warriors-type allies is already at least equivalent to having a third warrior in the party just at level 5, and then you can cast more spells on further rounds to compound that.
Is your game so high optimization that these options aren't strong enough? (I'm genuinely curious, since if it is, that might seriously change the sort of options I need to suggest.)Last edited by Demidos; 2020-06-22 at 02:04 PM.
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2020-06-22, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-06-22, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
nice build but it delayed improved familiar to 8 (unacceptable). but it has got me thinking a lot, about the using wizard spell slots for spontaneous cure wounds and possible illumian persistent spell. necromancy is a 2nd choice for me because body acquisition is a pain so i still prefer the animal companion.
i know my dms answer. its gonna be no. he believes in no leniency because raw is so powerful.
sorcerer has delayed spell progression so wizard is still more preferable.
yup. relying on save or dies with like 60% success chance is gonna get me killed. game is high op. falontani is right i had to stay inside a stone box 24/7 with my psion to survive.
any race within 3.0 and 3.5 that doesnt require dm leniency like making up an la.
i dont care about dual 9ths. druid high level spells are nothing to write home about. i only care about simulacrum.
thanks everyone for trying to help me.
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2020-06-22, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
with a single flaw you can take Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard and get your improved familiar at 7. Otherwise if you just need a single arcane CL of 7 you can be necromancy specialized. (spellgifted: Necromancy gives +1 CL)
the build also works with strongheart halfling, if you want small
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2020-06-22, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
flaws are allowed. we can have two.
as for the cl boost. my dm ruled arcane caster level and caster level for necromancy are two different things so the school specialization wont get me mirror mephtis any quicker. he also said temporary cl boosts have to last 24 hours for me to use it to get my mirror mephit.
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2020-06-22, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
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2020-06-23, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
Create Magic Tattoo could be an option. A 2nd lvl Spell but you need it with 13clvl to give you +1clvl for 24h.
You would need to find someone with high enough clvl to cast it on you (as service) or buy a scroll of that lvl. The questions is, will it be available from the DM sides at that lvl?Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-06-23 at 12:28 AM.
Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2020-06-23, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: most powerful 1st level dip?
Try cleric 1, wizard 2, mystic theurge until you want a better wizard prc?
It gives a huge amount of bonus spell slots(but starts kicking in only at level 4 which is late) as well as some domains in exchange for delaying wizard progression of 1 level.
anyway why do you want to dip at first level?
Oh I got it.
Your most powerful first level wizard dip is wizard.
Never take more than 1 level in wizard thus it is a "dip"
Like wizard 1/master specialist x(involves bard sheanigans for temporary hit dice to raise skills high enough or lycanthropy that you then cure immediately)/shadowcraft mage or other kind of cheesy prcs.Last edited by noob; 2020-06-23 at 04:25 PM.