Eight Pointed Arrow of Chaos, Circumpunct Shield of Law

[johnbragg]

Michael Moorcock's novels established the eight-pointed arrow as the symbol for Chaos in opposition to Law. It's been widely adopted, and I think I have a few criteria for what makes a good fantasy-world symbol.

("Good" meaning "seems plausible to normies NOT living in a fantasy world")

1. Simple to draw. We can easily imagine very stupid humanoids crudely painting or scratching or carving an eight-pointed-star into things. Most of the symbols of D&D gods don't meet that test.
2. Simple to explain. Chaos in all directions, at the same time. One slightly-less-stupid humanoid can explain it to his or her stupider partner.
3. Distinctive.

The arrow of law fails the second test. I think I have something better. The "circumpunct", a dot in a circle.
1. Simple to draw. 10 out of 10.
2. Simple to explain. The perfect circle represents perfect order, the oneness of the universe, etc. 7 out of 10
3. Distinctive. 4 out of 10. The symbol is also used for the sun in astrology and alchemy, in the international phonetic alphabet.

But I think it works pretty well. And "circumpunct" has a nice Latin sound.

EDIT: The forum has spoken. The Circumpunct has no support except for me, while the Squared Circle attracted significant support.

[Deffers]

The main problem is the circumpunct already has existing meanings tied to it.

For one, it's an alchemical/magical symbol representing gold and the Sun. Additionally, it is symbolic of The Monad. This can be thought of as the Divine Source or it can be thought of as the All. Which carries a connotation of, well... being the first causes, being everything. Unity, rather than Law and Chaos.

So on those grounds, I'd object to the use of the circumpunct as the symbol for Law. It's already a symbol for concepts both far more expansive and far more mundane.

[w15p]

I think a regular polygon, specifically an octagon in this case would show the boundaries of LAW. In this case, opposed to the chaos of the eight-pointed arrow

[Nifft]

I think a regular polygon, specifically an octagon in this case would show the boundaries of LAW. In this case, opposed to the chaos of the eight-pointed arrow

How about two overlapping squares?

[Psyren]

What are some fantasy symbols for Law/Order magic? I know about the single arrow which is supposed to be the contrast to the 8-pointed radial but I agree that one is boring. I've seen some other symbols from various games, like the Azorius symbol from MTG (a triangle containing a circular/geometric maze) but I seem to be drawing a blank on any others.

[Deffers]

What are some fantasy symbols for Law/Order magic? I know about the single arrow which is supposed to be the contrast to the 8-pointed radial but I agree that one is boring. I've seen some other symbols from various games, like the Azorius symbol from MTG (a triangle containing a geometric maze) but I seem to be drawing a blank on any others.

Well, there's always the Discordian symbols of order and chaos:

One is a pentagon, the other is a golden apple with the word for "the prettiest one" in Greek on it. One naturally embodies Eris, and the other embodies Harmonia. Disorder and being, as well as Order and non-being. I guess you could argue it's not "fantasy," but it's modern-mythological.

Spoiler: Big Image

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EDIT: If you wanted to fix the golden apple to fit another setting, it's also valid to write it as a "K." Or you could just have it be gibberish.

[Vahnavoi]

For one, it's an alchemical/magical symbol representing gold and the Sun. Additionally, it is symbolic of The Monad. This can be thought of as the Divine Source or it can be thought of as the All. Which carries a connotation of, well... being the first causes, being everything. Unity, rather than Law and Chaos.

Unity is a Lawful trait in many relevant settings, though. The other symbolisms are typically also associated with Lawful alignments, namely, Lawful Good. Of course, this reinforces the idea that Law = Good and Holy and Chaos = Evil and Unholy, but I don't see the Lawfuls complaining. I'd say it fits settings which omit the Good - Evil axis best.

[Deffers]

Unity is a Lawful trait in many relevant settings, though. The other symbolisms are typically also associated with Lawful alignments, namely, Lawful Good. Of course, this reinforces the idea that Law = Good and Holy and Chaos = Evil and Unholy, but I don't see the Lawfuls complaining. I'd say it fits settings which omit the Good - Evil axis best.

The main problem is you're losing the conveyance of totality, unless your Lawful dudes are arguing Chaos doesn't exist. It's like the difference between a symbol for wuji, a symbol for taiji, and the yin /yang.

[dancrilis]

2. Simple to explain.
The arrow of law fails the second test.

There is only one true path.

[Vahnavoi]

The main problem is you're losing the conveyance of totality, unless your Lawful dudes are arguing Chaos doesn't exist. It's like the difference between a symbol for wuji, a symbol for taiji, and the yin /yang.

And what would be odd if they did argue that? The side with literal angels telling the chaotics that even they are part of God's ineffable plan sounds perfectly thematic to me.

[Millstone85]

How about simply inverting the symbol of chaos?



Eight arrows pointing inward. A symbol of unity, shared goal, and common effort.

[johnbragg]

Well, there's always the Discordian symbols of order and chaos:

One is a pentagon, the other is a golden apple with the word for "the prettiest one" in Greek on it. One naturally embodies Eris, and the other embodies Harmonia. Disorder and being, as well as Order and non-being. I guess you could argue it's not "fantasy," but it's modern-mythological.

I don't think the pentagon easily scans as a good symbol of Law as a cosmic principle. The circle-and-dot carries implications of perfection that 5 sides doesn't. Why 5, why not 6 or 8 or 4? Now we have an argument, when the whole point of reducing the multiverse to ash is because there will be no more arguments when everything is under LAW and cosmic order, when everything is in it's proper place.

Unity is a Lawful trait in many relevant settings, though. The other symbolisms are typically also associated with Lawful alignments, namely, Lawful Good. Of course, this reinforces the idea that Law = Good and Holy and Chaos = Evil and Unholy, but I don't see the Lawfuls complaining. I'd say it fits settings which omit the Good - Evil axis best.

Right. The circumpunct seems like a symbol the Lawfuls would use for themselves.

The main problem is you're losing the conveyance of totality, unless your Lawful dudes are arguing Chaos doesn't exist. It's like the difference between a symbol for wuji, a symbol for taiji, and the yin /yang.

Chaos and disorder SHOULD NOT exist. And once we implement the Great Plan, it will not exist, and everything will be PERFECT!!! The circumpunct sends the opposite message of the yin-yang symbol--one way and one way ONLY.

There is only one true path.

You're right, the Arrow of Law is easy to explain, but it's still not very evocative. And it overlaps with the very mundane "Go this way" symbol.

How about simply inverting the symbol of chaos?



Eight arrows pointing inward. A symbol of unity, shared goal, and common effort.

The symbolism is good, but I don't think the Lawfuls would really love a symbol that's clearly derived from their opponents. Also, not so easy for your goons to accurately carve into a stone wall or a primitive scarification. It's complicated and fiddly, which is does not really sing to the hearts of those obsessed with Law and Order and having things the Right Way, Just So.

[johnbragg]

Emotionally, I think a symbol of cosmic Law should appeal to the sort of sentient beings who would form cults devoted to Discworld's https://discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Auditors_of_Reality.

The opposite numbers of the chaos-cultists who get a charge out of imagining the universe being reduced to primal chaos-soup without form or permanence or structure.

Imagine a generic not-Eberron city with LE hobgoblin and CE orc street gangs. I think the hobboes would enjoy beating up orcs in the name of the circle-and-dot, while orcs beat up hobboes in the name of the 8 arrows. That's part of what makes a good symbol.

EDIT: The eight-pointed arrow also lends itself to development, with the arrows having different sizes representing even more chaos, the 3-D version, etc. The dot-and-circle could be similarly embellished--you've got a circle, you can add concentric circles, you can divide the circle into equal sections, inscribe regular polygons.

I'm growing more committed to this as I go. Too bad my setting doesn't place much emphasis on alignment.....

[Millstone85]

Now we have an argument, when the whole point of reducing the multiverse to ash is because there will be no more arguments when everything is under LAW and cosmic order, when everything is in it's proper place.

The opposite numbers of the chaos-cultists who get a charge out of imagining the universe being reduced to primal chaos-soup without form or permanence or structure.

Wait! So both camps seek to reduce the universe to its base components, one because it would make it uniform, and the other because there would be no more recognizable structure?

The symbolism is good, but I don't think the Lawfuls would really love a symbol that's clearly derived from their opponents.

That does not have to be the case in-universe. The symbol of law could have come first, or the origin of both symbols could be lost to time.

Also, not so easy for your goons to accurately carve into a stone wall or a primitive scarification. It's complicated and fiddly, which is does not really sing to the hearts of those obsessed with Law and Order and having things the Right Way, Just So.

It is not that complicated. You draw two arrows facing each other, then two more at a right angle, and then four more in the spaces in-between. Simple goons might not obtain a very symmetrical result, but it is no worse than trying to draw a perfect circle.

The eight-pointed arrow also lends itself to development, with the arrows having different sizes representing even more chaos, the 3-D version, etc. The dot-and-circle could be similarly embellished--you've got a circle, you can add concentric circles, you can divide the circle into equal sections, inscribe regular polygons.

Do you want ophanim? Because that's how you get ophanim.

Joking. Best angels ever.

[johnbragg]

Wait! So both camps seek to reduce the universe to its base components, one because it would make it uniform, and the other because there would be no more recognizable structure?

Pretty much. Both camps, if allowed to run unchecked, would bring about the complete destruction of all life and the multiverse as we or our characters know it, breaking it down in the name of their perfect cosmic principle. One principle is constant change, one principle is perfect unchanging uniformity, but either way there is no room for meatsacks with object permanence, a temporally limited existence and a self-other distinction.

That does not have to be the case in-universe. The symbol of law could have come first, or the origin of both symbols could be lost to time.

Feh.

Do you want ophanim? Because that's how you get ophanim.

Joking. Best angels ever.

I see no reason to NOT want ophanim. Especially since that's a great source of heresies and divisions within the Lawful camp. Ophanim stans vs fans of nested glowing pythagorean solids--FIGHT!!

[Psyren]

I like the idea of a simple and perfectly symmetrical geometric shape representing law, but I agree that the number of sides would be a sticking point/locus for disagreement.

Perhaps a square inside a circle then - clear counterpoint to the Chaos arrows, captures both the encompassing nature of law (circle) plus its uniformity and rigidity (square).

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[Civis Mundi]

I like the idea of a simple and perfectly symmetrical geometric shape representing law, but I agree that the number of sides would be a sticking point/locus for disagreement.

Perhaps a square inside a circle then - clear counterpoint to the Chaos arrows, captures both the encompassing nature of law (circle) plus its uniformity and rigidity (square).

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This one has my vote, for the reasons you ascribe.

[el minster]

This one has my vote, for the reasons you ascribe.

I second this

[Deffers]

Thirded, for the previously stated reasons. To my knowledge it's not even an existing symbol-- although it's kind of evocative of the Philosopher's stone symbol without actually being the symbol proper, which is a nice plus.

[Civis Mundi]

Thirded, for the previously stated reasons. To my knowledge it's not even an existing symbol-- although it's kind of evocative of the Philosopher's stone symbol without actually being the symbol proper, which is a nice plus.

It does have some associations as an alchemical symbol--something about "squaring the circle," an allusion to creating the philosopher's stone--but usually it's reversed, with the square on the outside. I've seen it used as a general symbol for the element of earth here and there, but it's got a lot of variations, and frankly the association just further works in the symbol's favor. I think the solidity of earth makes sense for cosmic Law.

[Deffers]

It does have some associations as an alchemical symbol--something about "squaring the circle," an allusion to creating the philosopher's stone--but usually it's reversed, with the square on the outside. I've seen it used as a general symbol for the element of earth here and there, but it's got a lot of variations, and frankly the association just further works in the symbol's favor. I think the solidity of earth makes sense for cosmic Law.

Yeah, the squared circle is the inverse. Though I was thinking, the Squared Circle would be fascinating as a symbol for a philosophy that is ultimately unattainable despite the adamant belief and fervent effort of those trying to attain their ideal. Which is to say, it has even more reasons it works well for Law-based fanatics.

[Psyren]

Regarding the circle being on the outside or inside of the square, I could go either way.

One thing I'll point out, is that the circle being on the outside makes the symbol easier to convert into recognizable objects like coins and shields - both of which are also symbols of law (currency/trade, and armies/protection).

[johnbragg]

The forum has spoken. The Circumpunct has no support except for me, the Squared Circle attracted significant support.

[Civis Mundi]

Regarding the circle being on the outside or inside of the square, I could go either way.

One thing I'll point out, is that the circle being on the outside makes the symbol easier to convert into recognizable objects like coins and shields - both of which are also symbols of law (currency/trade, and armies/protection).

Oh, I much prefer the square-within-the-circle. I actually find the other way a bit ugly.

I could totally see this as another point of contention between different Lawful societies. That and whether it's really a square, and not tilted on its side for a diamond shape instead.

I could also see some more pedantic societies insisting that the traingle is in fact a more stable structure than the square, and using that instead. Lousy three-pointers.

[johnbragg]

Well now I know how this plays into my actual setting.

A big factor in the fall of the primeval Dwarven Imperium (after liberating the surface from the neolithic hunter-gatherer elves) was iconoclasm and heresy as humans in the Imperium created competing and conflicting fanatical-Law cults. (Ironically, the less organized Chaos cults had less infighting, because they were less heirarchy-oriented).

The cult of the Squared Circle vs the Inscribed Square vs the Triangular heresy....

[Civis Mundi]

Well now I know how this plays into my actual setting.

A big factor in the fall of the primeval Dwarven Imperium (after liberating the surface from the neolithic hunter-gatherer elves) was iconoclasm and heresy as humans in the Imperium created competing and conflicting fanatical-Law cults. (Ironically, the less organized Chaos cults had less infighting, because they were less heirarchy-oriented).

The cult of the Squared Circle vs the Inscribed Square vs the Triangular heresy....

I love it. Just don't forget those despicable Diamants! Outside or inside, those snooty philosopher-types are the worst of all heretics!

EDIT: Building on this, because I like the idea: I see the Diamants as a heretical Neutral sect that wants to create unity without so much dogma, hierarchy and uniformity. They favor the diamond shape because it symbolizes tilting the existing structures of society without shattering them completely. Maybe they don't care whether the square or the circle is inscribed, or maybe they too are woefully fractured along those lines, and the ideology behind the slightly different symbols.

[johnbragg]

I love it. Just don't forget those despicable Diamants! Outside or inside, those snooty philosopher-types are the worst of all heretics!

Pity the poor Dwarven Imperium bureaucrats dealing with human Law cultists. Dwarves never needed Lawful religions, law was just part of them, like magic resistance and being orderly and sitting equally spaced on the cafeteria benches.

Now half the humans in the city are on fire for the Squared Circle and half of them for the Inscribed Square. And then there's the Diamants and the Wheelies, although you can handle the Wheelies well enough by goading them into arguing with each other over how many spokes the perfect Wheel has.

And lately, some of the young dwarven Cohorts on service are getting geometry-based loyalties in their heads. Ancestral dwarves didn't need a rune for law any more than fishmen need a rune for wet. Never mind arguing and fistfights about what the wettest rune was. You were loyal to your clan, your guild and your cohort, and that was enough.

Over a generation or two, that eats away at the conformity and uniformity of the dwarves of the Imperium. Throw in economic-cultural clashes between the topsiders and the deeps about whether eating tasty surface food instead of an entirely mushroom-based diet is just good sense or is shameful degeneracy, and you have all the motivation you need for the Imperium to crack into an archipelago of city-states.

[johnbragg]

I love it. Just don't forget those despicable Diamants! Outside or inside, those snooty philosopher-types are the worst of all heretics!

EDIT: Building on this, because I like the idea: I see the Diamants as a heretical Neutral sect that wants to create unity without so much dogma, hierarchy and uniformity. They favor the diamond shape because it symbolizes tilting the existing structures of society without shattering them completely. Maybe they don't care whether the square or the circle is inscribed, or maybe they too are woefully fractured along those lines, and the ideology behind the slightly different symbols.

Nice. But I see them as ineffective idealist types, unable to mobilize goon squads. {scrubbed}

And the dwarven Imperium bureaucrats still tend to dismiss them as just another bunch of overly-enthusiastic cultists.

[Civis Mundi]

Nice. But I see them as ineffective idealist types, unable to mobilize goon squads. {scrubbed}

And the dwarven Imperium bureaucrats still tend to dismiss them as just another bunch of overly-enthusiastic cultists.

As an idealist-type myself, I will note that we tend to be opposed to mobilizing goon squads.

But I'm always happy to contribute to a growing world! It sounds like an interesting place to explore.

[Segev]

The main problem is the circumpunct already has existing meanings tied to it.

For one, it's an alchemical/magical symbol representing gold and the Sun. Additionally, it is symbolic of The Monad. This can be thought of as the Divine Source or it can be thought of as the All. Which carries a connotation of, well... being the first causes, being everything. Unity, rather than Law and Chaos.

So on those grounds, I'd object to the use of the circumpunct as the symbol for Law. It's already a symbol for concepts both far more expansive and far more mundane.

I feel the need to point out that a symbol that represents unity, gold, and the sun being also a symbol of Order/Law is not inappropriate. Sun gods are often associated with law and lawgiving. Gold is currency, as pointed out before, as well as often likewise associated with the sun. And while I do understand the conundrum introduced by the fact that one can describe "unity" as encompassing all alignments versus "unity" being a concept of order, I think it closer to the latter. The actual issue to me is that "Unity" is both a Good and Orderly concept, if we're discussing D&D-like alignment axes, because Law speaks of organizing groups and Good speaks of cooperation and empathy. Both tend to subscribe to a "we're all pulling together" philosophy, and LG would thus perhaps be the alignment most associated with "unity" as a concept.

That said, the circumscribed square works well as an underlying element, lending both circles and squares as hints towards Law with the ability to be worked into other symbols. A Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good sun god's holy symbol might be a circumscribed square with dot in the middle, perhaps called the Ordered Sun. Or maybe a circle with a "diamond" (a square canted at 45 degrees) and a dot, called the Ordinal Sun.