OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

Okay. Don’t have a lot of original points, but yeah.

I think this is a good portrayal of Redcloak so far, both his thoughts and the flaws in them.

The “goblins were created as XP fodder” narrative can not be either proved or disproved at this point either way, so let’s forget about that for now. It sounds possible but it’s not from an unbiased confirmed source either.

“Goblinoids got the short end of the stick” DOES seem quite likely. I don’t think there’s been considerable evidence, but it’s a more “realistic” problem, so to speak. Even if the XP fodder narrative isn’t true, it’s quite likely that they still got a fairly raw deal when the gods were adding seed populations or whatever the correct term is. No deities to back them up and not much of a foundation to make civilizations like the other humanoid races - the biggest goblinoid civilization is Gobbotopia, and that one is a recent creation that requires a 16th-level cleric and an epic lich sorcerer.

That alone is not terribly much on its own, but it may be how some of the other problems were able to take root. Alignment problems are not something that is easy to talk about, but it is true that there are no real SOCIAL repercussions from slaughtering monstrous races en masse. Goblinoids seem to have it worse. Remember the Godsmoot vote? There were drow, kobolds, lizardfolk, orcs, and even what seemed to be a wererat(although that last one might have been an inflicted lycanthrope so maybe not a good example).

An extremely large part of Redcloak’s motivation stems from

Spoiler: SOD spoilers

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the massacre of his hometown, including many innocent non-combatants like his little sister.

That hasn’t come up yet in the comic yet, but it seems like that’s where the discussion is going.

Does this morally justify the invasion of Azure City? Not really, going to war for the sake conquering another nation is bad - regardless of species. It’s less reprehensible than what the Vector Legion are doing, because it’s partly karmic backlash and because the Legion are horrendous tyrants(especially Tarquin and Malack), but in general starting a war is not a Good thing. It’s no more or less an Evil thing than if it was a war between two groups of the same PC race or different PC races.

In another D&D 3.5e-based comic, Goblins: Life Through Their Eyes, Thaco said “War is unfair.” when trying to stop his son Complains About Names from killing the adventurer Minmax. For context, Minmax was part of an adventurer party that killed most of the war camp of the tribe the goblins were from, but at that point Minmax had lost his best friend and was practically catatonic at that point from despair.(It’s a bit complicated; can somebody else explain better than I did?) I... dunno how to really put it, but I think that kinda applies to the Azure City situation as well.

[factotum]

“Goblinoids got the short end of the stick” DOES seem quite likely. I don’t think there’s been considerable evidence, but it’s a more “realistic” problem, so to speak. Even if the XP fodder narrative isn’t true, it’s quite likely that they still got a fairly raw deal when the gods were adding seed populations or whatever the correct term is.

The main problem is simply that goblinoids are, generally, rather weak compared to other humanoid species. They're canonically smaller (although that isn't the case in the Stickverse--Redcloak should be around Belkar's size) and less intelligent. This means they're going to get forced into the parts of the world the other races don't want if they're trying to fight for territory. Of course, if they weren't usually Evil they might hit on the idea of actually co-operating with the other races in order to get better living conditions, as happened with Right-Eye's village in Start of Darkness, but Redcloak himself is certainly never going to think along those lines.

[ratfox]

RC has a point with "goblins were created to allow adventurers to gain XP"

... And he's not even asking for reparations! :-P

I'm wondering suddenly, what's Durkon's charisma?

[StragaSevera]

You know, it seems very funny that people think slaughter of goblin's village by some paladins justifies slaughter and enslaving men and women who were not paladins, never had any knowledge of this, and never had any power of influencing said paladins. It's not like Azure City is a democracy, you know?

Leavind Azure City in hands of goblins may be a practical decision in order to save the world, but it is not and can not be an ethical decision. It is a lesser evil, no less, no more.

[Fyraltari]

Them and what army?

Seriously. They lost when they had 10,000 troops and all the defenses of the city. Currently they have tens of troops, possibly dozens, and would have to fight against those same defenses. The army was a massive threat even without Xykon and Reddie. Still is. Tens of thousands strong, entrenched, well defended. Hinjo ain't got jack.

Unless I am mistaken, all the nobles took their private armies with them rather than participate in the battle and so have a few thousands professionnal soldiers collectively.
Which I believe will be Ann issue when the Gobbotopia/Azure City part of the plot get resolved. In that it wouldn’t be enough to take the city but enough to cause a lot of deaths.

All in all I expect the Azurites to be has divided as this forum on the question of retaking the homeland with the more tolerant ones (represented by the surviving paladins and the Kaitos) being willing to just settle the island and the angrier ones (being represented by the nobles and I would guess Niu at least initially) insisting they take every opportunity to fight the goblins.

The plot is clearly headed to a peaceful accord, what with it being explicit the Azurites can love fine on the island and the author’s views on the applicability of fiction to the real world and general political opinion (racism bad).

As for wether the taking of Azure City was god or ill deed, I don’t think it matters. It’s a done deed. Life pretty much never allow people to just go back to how things were. The statu quo has changed and the living need to adapt to it. As the floating magical giant head of Shojo said « evolve or die. » Throwing blame around and swearing bloody revenge never solves a damn thing. The question of how they got into this situation isn’t nearly as important as the question of where they will go from there. As it stands both people have a land they can call their own and prosper in. Sounds like a good foundation for a peace. The Azurites and the goblins won’t like each other (and may never will) and probably won’t be happy with the eventual agreement but nobody is asking them to and a good compromise is when no-one gets entirely what they want.

The Azurite Nation, ultimately, is not its land but its people. They will endure. Like they have endured every other calamity that befell them since they formed (like the collapse of the Empire they were a part of or the Realm of the Dragon’s brutal wars of conquest) the loss of their city is another hardship in a list that most likely isn’t over yet. Hopefully they can learn from it.

As for the goblins they really need to free their slaves and change that repugnant motto (and the culture of agression both suffered and inflected it represents) as their relations with the other nations are normalized.



And all the cosmological stuff need to be sorted out, too, of course.

I agree quite strongly!
I love this kind of out of the box thinking. Hyenas are social, so imagine what kind of societies they would naturally have? I love having my mind opened to new ideas while I'm having fun.

Given my (limited) knowledge of hyenas, a matriarchy of some kind. Probably one where people don’t inexplicably dress like strippers too.

[Starlit Dragon]

I think you mean matriarchy, meaning leadership by women. Such a society would be incredibly fascinating to think about and discuss, but that is for another thread.

Anyway, I am on the side of goblins keeping the city. It would be a whole lot of trouble to take back, quite possibly spark a cycle of revenge, and in the end wouldn't help the people much. Besides, saving the world requires not pissing off the goblins, which forcing them out of their greatest city would do.

[Scizor]

Is the comic not still based on 3.5e? If so, are the stats on the d20srd not the official stats? Those list the following:

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

That's not part of the Core rules, but an optional variant that allows one to play Monstrous Races as player caharacters; not only is the implication that they are still monstrous races still there, but the rule is one which the Giant is rather explicitly not using since he has defined his world as one where Goblins are cannon-fodder. Also, he doesn't really care for the rules except as they pertain to established elements in the story already.

[Sindeloke]

You know, it seems very funny that people think slaughter of goblin's village by some paladins justifies slaughter and enslaving men and women who were not paladins, never had any knowledge of this, and never had any power of influencing said paladins.

It's not that strange once you remember you're arguing with The_Weirdo.

As far as the practical realities of the Azurites reclaiming their capital, a) I agree with the comments upthread that it's very weird that it's being treated like a conquered city-state rather than a partly occupied multi-city nation, but it wouldn't be the first time the Giant gently retconned minor details for the sake of a desired storyarc. Regardless, the situation as we've been presented it suggests that there aren't enough allied forces for the Azurites to take it back in a straight fight. Adventurers should be a reasonable alternative - mechanically speaking, one high-tier caster or even a properly optimized hulking hurler will wipe the floor with infinite low-level opposition - but b) the Stickverse is clearly pretty low-op and subject to strong Rule of Narrative Convenience, so that's also probably out of the running.

In other words there's no in-universe reason to argue the apparent out-of-universe declaration that Gobbotopia will stand for the foreseeable future.

This is all very "as above, so below," isn't it? Gobbotopia exists because the solution to Material Plane marginalization of goblin/oids was for them to become sufficiently powerful that marginalization was too expensive for other races. Easier to bully small scattered villages than a militarized, unified city-state. Likewise, TDO's solution to his divine marginalization is to become sufficiently powerful that the other gods find it too expensive to continue marginalizing him; easier to ignore the complaints of a lone god than to handwave the Snarl hanging over your head. And in both situations, the question is whether the instigating party has the wisdom and restraint to call a halt once they achieve their objective. So far Redcloak is doing better than I would have credited him with, which is relatively promising with regards to his boss.

[dancrilis]

Like, the comic you linked to specifically says that they were afraid of crossing the Lich, not a pretty large army of goblins.

Without Xykon they may have helped alright - but it is different helping out after a week against new aggressive invaders who might be seeking new targets, and helping out after months against the new neighbours (who are not causing you any problems).

It is also worth remembering that as far as they know Xykon is just a sending and a teleport away and even if they knew he didn't care, Redcloak is still likely to be just a sending and either Word of Recall or Gate away.

[Fyraltari]

I think you mean matriarchy, meaning leadership by women. Such a society would be incredibly fascinating to think about and discuss, but that is for another thread.

Yes, bloody overzealous autocorrect.
I dunno, I feel like it would just be a gender-flipped patriarchy which isn’t the most original of concepts.
They’d have ****-measuring contests instead of ****-measuring ones, but that, while hilarious, only carries a society so far.

[StragaSevera]

I dunno, I feel like it would just be a gender-flipped patriarchy which isn’t the most original of concepts.

Well, you can always fallback on the notion that "women are less violent than men, yadda yadd yadda", but the point is that Homo sapiens females are statistically less violent than males, and it may be not the common truth for Crocuta crocuta, where it is females who are dominating.

[Fyraltari]

Well, you can always fallback on the notion that "women are less violent than men, yadda yadd yadda", but the point is that Homo sapiens females are statistically less violent than males, and it may be not the common truth for Crocuta crocuta, where it is females who are dominating.

There’s also the question of how much of it is a biological or a cultural phenomenon.

[eras10]

This is my first forum comment in, without looking, I would guess three years. I just logged in to say how moved I am by this comic, and how deep and painful and complex are the moral issues that Rich has created in his stick figure goblin world. Guess I'll have to go buy some books.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Windscion]

It's not that strange once you remember you're arguing with The_Weirdo.

Two thumbs up.

[RickDaily12]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I have to conclude that Redcloak's terms are incredibly fair from a third party perspective. He could have argued it less from a "you other lame species have it good" whiny racist angle, but the actual terms he sits on doesn't seem all that farfetched to me.

If TDO surrenders his plan to help end the threat of the Snarl, all other three pantheons can take a deep breath they've been holding for an eternity's worth of planet recycling. The cost? Recognition of TDO's race as an equal in all the world(s). Given that they're a sentient intelligent species (and things like undead make great replacement cannon fodder), that is hardly a large ask when every god worries about this abomination longer than we can comprehend.

Redcloak's ask of keeping captured territory doesn't seem all that unreasonable either. Yes, the Azurites in particular get the biggest crap stick, but

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

once you remember that the Azurites also in particular spent decades terrorizing and butchering Goblin homelands (which also happened to have worse farmlands and resources compared to the other races on purpose), and slaughtering completely innocent goblins to end what was ultimately the entire push for equality in the first place...

...from an arbitrative perspective, I would have to posit that the peace between the Azurites and Goblins, when the Azurites were the biggest aggressor in this conflict... that if the Goblins freed all the human slaves, then yes, the Azurites could probably make up for all their slaughtering of innocent Goblins by sacrificing their homeland. Plus, once we consider:

and as others have pointed out, since they've already resettled on a large island with sustainable resources, the Azurites need Azure City a whole lot less than the Goblins need Gobbotopia right now. If the Goblins give up all the captured territory, then where do they even go? Much crappier lands? How is that "equal" for them?

Meanwhile, the Snarl, as far as everyone knows, remains the biggest threat to existence, for both gods and mortals.

So given that Redcloak and TDO want only equality, and not revenge, in exchange for ending the Big Bang kind of threat for all reality and time? That seems like a pretty sweet deal for everyone involved when you consider the bigger picture.

[LadyEowyn]

I agree, it looks like the foundation for an agreement which is highly beneficial to all sides. And I think Hinjo could be convinced to agree to it.

I think it’s the deities - possible TDO, definitely the other gods (who aren’t on side with Thor) who are going to be the sticking point.

Plus Xykon being a complicating factor, of course, and the IFCC doing whatever they’re going to do.

[RickDaily12]

I think it’s the deities - possible TDO, definitely the other gods (who aren’t on side with Thor) who are going to be the sticking point.

But then again, would they? Because my understanding of the matter is they only want to hit the reset button now because TDO is considered too "unreasonable" for a new quiddity god when he hatched a Plan to hold all the other gods hostage via the Snarl.

If he abandons that plan to help those gods end the Snarl, something that every god is clearly so terrified of, then doesn't that give all of the gods reason to give TDO a chance? On the surface, they seem excited about the prospects of a new quiddity, don't they? And it's not like they haven't waited an ungodly amount of time for a new one to pop up, either.

Plus Xykon being a complicating factor, of course, and the IFCC doing whatever they’re going to do.

Well yes, there's always that. All the more reason to at least get the gods on board though, since the evil gods at least seem to have some pull with the IFCC via Tiamat and etc.

[The_Weirdo]

Wish can't actually do that you know. Even high-powered artifacts can only go back a couple rounds. D&D is pretty clear that time travel is not possible in the standard rules.

I know. That's my point. Redcloak was visiting righteous punishment on AC for a campaign of genocide that affected him, personally, in horrible, irreversible ways. These people cannot and thus will not undo what their side did to him. What incentive does Redcloak have to give them back their former city? Especially, might I add, in a world where conquerors get to keep whatever they conquer?

[johnbragg]

I'm not sure Redcloak is looking for Azurites (the group of people he hates the most) to verify a city he already views as rightfully his. The Azurites aren't really a threat anymore (they're thousands of miles away, for starters) and their recognition doesn't mean much.

Actually, I'm also not sure what Redcloak really wants. As Durkon says, good farmland and ore are concrete, but it looks like Redcloak wants the gods to specifically do something on the Material Plane, and I don't think the gods are capable of intervening.

The Gods *do* have the ability to alter the Pact Primeval (I'm blanking on what it's called in the Stickverse), the agreement between the gods on how the world is going to work. In a world where Good and Evil are quasi-tangible para-substances, the Gods could change the definition of Good and Evil in regard to goblinoids. (Or all sentients, depending on where The Giant wants the story to end up.)

I think his demand of the gods would be to stop categorizing the killing of a "usually Evil" sapient creature as a Good act. In a world where morality is objectively verifiable and has observable effects, a lot of what he wants to happen on the Prime Material would shake out from there.

Yah, that's a thing the gods could do, including rewriting the source code for Good and Evil as quasi-tangible para-substances, reinforced by granting and withholding of divine spells.

Uhhh... I hate to tell you guys, but I don't really think the goblin nation needs permission to keep Gobbotopia. This is one of those times where "possession in 9/10 of the law" really fits. For example: assume that the remaining Azurites want their city back. Gobbotopia refuses. What, exactly, are the Azurites gonna do about it?

Oh agreed. I wrote the Sending to persuade the Azurites to give up their claims to the city. And the carrot is the release of the slaves--if that doesn't do the job, then New Azure City can nurse a grudge for the next few centuries, until something else horrible happens to distract their attention from their old grudge to their new problem.

Gobbotopia isn't the only nation in the realm, even if we don't see the others much due to Rule of Conservation of Detail.

Yes, Gobbotopia has Cliffport recognizing them (likely neutrally aligned), and some other nations, but we also know that the Azurites want their city back, and the Elves have already expended some forces to assist. Maybe they'll send more.

What about other nations? What about other city-states? What about adventuring heroes who decide "destroy the evil empire of the Goblins and bring justice back to the land" sounds like a great cause, especially with all of Gobbotopia's heavy hitters dead or departed?

If the new Treaty of Four Divine Colors would treat "destroy the Goblin Empire" the same as "destroy Cliffport" or even "destroy Greysky City", a pretty blatant Evil act. A signed peace of paper from Hinjo isn't going to stop it.

Right now, Gobbotopia only survives as long as it can fight hard enough to survive.

In the long term, that's everybody, everywhere.

It's political avenues are limited, and might have already hit their limit. And much of their ability to take the city in the first place was because of Xykon and Redcloak. Having the Azurites recognize their claim to the land makes it much more likely for the Good nations in the vicinity to, at the very least, tolerate their presence and maybe even open up diplomatic ties.

That's already happened. Peace and trade agreements with 17 nations is about as good as it gets.

It might just create a world where Gobbotopia doesn't need to stay on a constant war footing just to survive.

That's just baseline reality in a quasi-medieval fantasy universe.

They are already making plans to take it back, if they don't agree to this that fight will certainly happen and without Xykon or Red Cloak they could very will win.

Traditionally, being the defender is a huge advantage in war. Rule-of-thumb is that a 3-1 advantage is required to take a fortified position. To invade Gobbotopia, the Azurites need to sail most of the way across the world (continent to continent), establish a beachhead, fight their way through the Southern Mountains, storm the semi-repaired walls (with mid-level Gobbotopia clerics pouring spell slots into Stone Shape, high level clerics using Wall of Stone), and defeat the Gobbotopian army defending the city. So basically, sail halfway around the world (I don't have a movie for how miserable that would be), storm the beaches at Normandy, then be the attacking army in every US Civil War battle.

(For reference, click on the map at https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Azure_City)

That's not a viable plan.

And the fractious, disunited Azurites know this. If half the nobility wouldn't commit their forces to the *defense* of Azure City, they're surely not going to waste them in a futile, nearly-suicidal attempt to regain Azure City.

[johnbragg]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I have to conclude that Redcloak's terms are incredibly fair from a third party perspective. He could have argued it less from a "you other lame species have it good" whiny racist angle, but the actual terms he sits on doesn't seem all that farfetched to me.

If TDO surrenders his plan to help end the threat of the Snarl, all other three pantheons can take a deep breath they've been holding for an eternity's worth of planet recycling. The cost? Recognition of TDO's race as an equal in all the world(s). Given that they're a sentient intelligent species (and things like undead make great replacement cannon fodder), that is hardly a large ask when every god worries about this abomination longer than we can comprehend.

Redcloak's ask of keeping captured territory doesn't seem all that unreasonable either.

He doesn't really need to ASK for that, he's already got that. That's sort of the assumption of any broad agreement. (Pacifying the Azurites is a minor detail.) You'll make some concessions (freeing the Azurite slaves) to gain legal title to what you hold, but given a choice "having the city is better than "having title to the city"

So given that Redcloak and TDO want only equality, and not revenge, in exchange for ending the Big Bang kind of threat for all reality and time? That seems like a pretty sweet deal for everyone involved when you consider the bigger picture.

The problem is the one Durkon identified, what specifically, concretely is Redcloak asking for? Not Gobbotopia--he's already got Gobbotopia.

We forumites have sketched out how the Gods could change the operating definitions of Good and Evil with respect to slaughtering goblinoids (possibly other intelligent monsters). But is Redcloak likely to think the same way? Redcloak's alignment is Neutral or Lawful Evil, he doesn't recognize Good as being the standard.

To be accepted in the fraternity of PC races, Redcloak (on behalf of the goblins) would have to agree to play by the rules of that fraternity. And part of that is to set up "Good" as the standard to aspire to or at least pay homage to.

Redcloak may be able to cross that bridge, for the sake of Goblinkind. But can The Dark One?

[dancrilis]

I know. That's my point. Redcloak was visiting righteous punishment on AC for a campaign of genocide that affected him, personally, in horrible, irreversible ways. These people cannot and thys will not undo what their side did to him. What incentive does Redcloak have to give them back their former city? Especially, might I add, in a world where conquerors get to keep whatever they conquer?

They could see about buying it off him for X amount of diamonds and Y amount of gold where X is equal to enough diamonds for him to cast True Resurrection on any Goblin killed by the Sapphire guard and Y is the cost to hire a cleric of his level to cast a 9th level spell the required amount of times.

That way he can use the resources to 'undo' the harm they caused or he could use those same resources to vastly improve the lives of living goblins.

Now of course the former members of Azure city do not likely have the resources for that but the Twelve Gods might be able to deliver on their behalf or the Azure City population might merely owe the Goblins the value and a payment plan could be mapped out including a reasonable yearly interest rate + inflation.


I do think Xykon will likely get mentioned soon as he would seem to be a bit of a sticking point for Redcloak abandoning the plan (due to the fallout from that) - or from Durkon's point of view Redcloak betraying his ally / securing his ally's interests.

[The_Weirdo]

They could see about buying it off him for X amount of diamonds and Y amount of gold where X is equal to enough diamonds for him to cast True Resurrection on any Goblin killed by the Sapphire guard and Y is the cost to hire a cleric of his level to cast a 9th level spell the required amount of times.

That way he can use the resources to 'undo' the harm they caused or he could use those same resources to vastly improve the lives of living goblins.

Now of course the former members of Azure city do not likely have the resources for that but the Twelve Gods might be able to deliver on their behalf or the Azure City population might merely owe the Goblins the value and a payment plan could be mapped out including a reasonable yearly interest rate + inflation.


I do think Xykon will likely get mentioned soon as he would seem to be a bit of a sticking point for Redcloak abandoning the plan (due to the fallout from that) - or from Durkon's point of view Redcloak betraying his ally / securing his ally's interests.

Well, yes, divine intervention to make things fair could even include these goblin villages being rezzed and so on and so forth.

Mind, I don't think it will, even because it's also rather repugnant to think the gods could simply solve everything like that and decided not to because they were just goblins. And, from a story perspective, it's an undo button on a huge sticking point of conflict.

At the end of the day, what Redcloak was put through by the Sapphire Guard is not something that can simply be undone and made all better. Neither should the conquering of AC be.

[dancrilis]

7
At the end of the day, what Redcloak was put through by the Sapphire Guard is not something that can simply be undone and made all better.

Redcloak has justification but I am not sure how justified he really is.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

The guard were only at his village because his god created an artifact that threatened the planet - for all their excesses the Sapphire Guard were not actually the aggressor, The Dark One was.

I am half expecting to find out that before The Dark One goblins were doing alright worshipped whatever gods were handy, worked with others etc then he came along and turned them into a group with a 'goblins first' mentality - then he died and the goblins launched a war in his name leaving them as the defeated aggressors pushed to the fringes of society and as they did it in his name he ascended - and his dogma became 'all other gods are evil you shall have no other gods but me, your lives are bad because they wanted your lives to be bad'.

i.e I would not be surprised to find out of all Goblin problems truely began with The Dark One.

[The_Weirdo]

Redcloak has justification but I am not sure how justified he really is.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

The guard were only at his village because his god created an artifact that threatened the planet - for all their excesses the Sapphire Guard were not actually the aggressor, The Dark One was.

I am half expecting to find out that before The Dark One goblins were doing alright worshipped whatever gods were handy, worked with others etc then he came along and turned them into a group with a 'goblins first' mentality - then he died and the goblins launched a war in his name leaving them as the defeated aggressors pushed to the fringes of society and as they did it in his name he ascended - and his dogma became 'all other gods are evil you shall have no other gods but me, your lives are bad because they wanted your lives to be bad'.

i.e I would not be surprised to find out of all Goblin problems truely began with The Dark One.

Except that's canonically not what happened and would upend the Giant's entire point for his work. As for the spoiler part, they would have committed genocide over the threat that an entire race that got the short end of the stick might force redress from the gods.

[Jay R]

The “goblins were created as XP fodder” narrative can not be either proved or disproved at this point either way, so let’s forget about that for now. It sounds possible but it’s not from an unbiased confirmed source either.

It's worth pointing out that, in a world based on D&D rules, it is objectively true – goblins were originally created to be XP fodder. In the original game of D&D, in 1974, Humans ("Men"), Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits existed as PC races, but goblins were just monsters to be encountered and destroyed.

[Yes, their world is currently based on 3.5 rules, but it wasn't always. We saw it upgrade from 3.0, and we've met one AD&D 1e Thief. Its roots go deep into early D&D.]

[ebarde]

Yeah, like in-universe I suppose it's not impossible although very much a stretch that everything we know about goblins is wrong. But like...that's just sorta of a really cheap plot twist? It would basically undermine the whole plot of the comic and Redcloak's motivations, and for no really significant gain to the story. It would make the goblin plot to go from an interesting parallel to DnD that is more relevant than ever considering Wizard getting rid of evil races, something Rich is clearly extremely invested in to just the gods are the good guys and the goblins are misguided at best, which isn't awfully interesting or relevant.

[Skull the Troll]

I know. That's my point. Redcloak was visiting righteous punishment on AC for a campaign of genocide that affected him, personally, in horrible, irreversible ways. These people cannot and thus will not undo what their side did to him. What incentive does Redcloak have to give them back their former city? Especially, might I add, in a world where conquerors get to keep whatever they conquer?

Not necessarily irreversible. They have never shown if Redcloak tried to resurrect his sister, et al after becoming powerful enough to do so. The fact that she isn't walking around means either the idea never occurred to him because he's been mostly evil in his life or because he tried and she didn't consent is unknown. I would expect his brother wouldn't return but Redcloak has had the time, power and resources to raise the whole village if he had wanted to try. I agree its fine for him to keep Gobbotopia, I'm sure Soon conquered that area from someone when they found the rift there, fair enough. Plus as others have said the Azurites were the real aggressors.

I'm finding this conversation fascinating. Redcloak is being more reasonable than I expected. CAN Redcloak and the entire Goblin race change to be "not evil?" I don't mean they all become saintly monks and stuff. The paladins kept their lawful good alignments while slaughtering children. But can they decide to keep to their better lands and not raid and slave? Can the humans be trusted not to kill them in return? Will the goblins release all the Azurite slaves?

[Snails]

What are they gong to do, write a sternly worded letter?

There is a huge army of very vulnerable low level humanoids. "I wouldn't want anything to happen to it."

Seriously, a party of 6 9th level PCs could kill them all over the course of several months. That is the kind of resources Hinjo and other nobles could probably muster, without necessarily even needing Elven allies to lend a hand.

[The_Weirdo]

Not necessarily irreversible. They have never shown if Redcloak tried to resurrect his sister, et al after becoming powerful enough to do so. The fact that she isn't walking around means either the idea never occurred to him because he's been mostly evil in his life or because he tried and she didn't consent is unknown. I would expect his brother wouldn't return but Redcloak has had the time, power and resources to raise the whole village if he had wanted to try. I agree its fine for him to keep Gobbotopia, I'm sure Soon conquered that area from someone when they found the rift there, fair enough. Plus as others have said the Azurites were the real aggressors.

I'm finding this conversation fascinating. Redcloak is being more reasonable than I expected. CAN Redcloak and the entire Goblin race change to be "not evil?" I don't mean they all become saintly monks and stuff. The paladins kept their lawful good alignments while slaughtering children. But can they decide to keep to their better lands and not raid and slave? Can the humans be trusted not to kill them in return? Will the goblins release all the Azurite slaves?

Well, at this point, I'd assume that Redcloak - in a decision I condemn, might I add - prioritized the plan to the exclusion of rezzing the folks, even though he could easily do so via teleporting, Word of Recall and so on.

Regardless of what is done to the Azurite prisoners, I would really like to see him going: "Well, the Lawful Good option is to slaughter them all, as we all know from what your Paladins did to goblin children. Now, should I be Lawful Good?"