OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[Fincher]

I'm not going to say he should be booted out under these circumstances, and I don't think the Order would choose to kick him out after this, but I would say that something like this would be understandable grounds for dismissal in general.

[Squire Doodad]

If this was a military unit, Durkon could be facing anything from discharge to court martial.
However, this isn't a military group. This is Order of the Stick, not Schlock Mercenary.

Durkon is part of a team, and at the end of the road. He's not about to be kicked out unless he magically reveals himself to be the secret mastermind behind it all, and the idea of that is just stupid.

[Fyraltari]

Second, Durkon does have a solid track record and is pretty much the only other good aligned character on the team with an int score above 3.

Are you calling Haley dumb or Neutral?

[pendell]

Are you calling Haley dumb or Neutral?

She's chaotic good-ish. If she's chaotic good, she's in the shallow end of the pool, nothing at all like the deep, unquestionable goodness of a Roy or a Durkon.

For example, I can't imagine Durkon or Roy sneak attacking an unarmed person in the shower and then killing them in cold blood, no matter how deserved it was and no matter how much of a threat they posed.

Those statements are conflicting. If he deserves to be booted out of the party, then that overcomes his track record and slack. If his track record and slack prevent him from being booted out of the party, then that means he did not deserve to be booted.

Not at all. Just because someone deserves to be terminated doesn't mean they have to be terminated. Roy has the option to show mercy. And "mercy triumphs over judgement", in some times and some places.

To paraphrase Gandalf, there are many in this world who deserve death but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea to go and start dealing it out, even to someone like Gollum, who deserved death many times over. Bilbo showed mercy and gave Gollum what he did not deserve, and because of this he escaped from the Ring relatively unscathed.

Repeatedly , in the Lord of the Rings, people are punished to a far lesser extent than they deserved. Gollum was spared three times: once by Bilbo, once by Aragorn and the elves, once by Frodo. Saruman's life was spared twice, once by Gandalf and once by Frodo (in the Scouring of the Shire). Sometimes that gamble didn't pay off ; but at one extremely critical moment Frodo's mercy decided the fate of middle earth. If he had slit Gollum's throat when they first met (which was the tactically prudent thing to do, as well as deserved many times over), the Ring would not have been destroyed.

My experience in 20+ years of marriage is that a big, big part of a successful relationship is not punishing the other party to the full extent they deserve , but working instead to repair the relationship; even if this means sometimes suffering an injury and not paying it back.

I would say Roy has the right to kick Durkon out over this, but he is not obligated to kick Durkon out because of this. He's allowed, as leader, to take Durkon's previous record into account , as well as their personal friendship, and assess a less stringent penalty than a strict reading of the rules requires. The rules of any adventuring party are meant to facilitate co-operation and discipline; they are not meant to be programming instructions to be rigidly obeyed as if the party members are automatons.

I'm not going to say he should be booted out under these circumstances, and I don't think the Order would choose to kick him out after this, but I would say that something like this would be understandable grounds for dismissal in general.

Exactly. We all know Durkon won't be booted ; it's too late in the game and we need all the clerics we can get.

All of this assumes Durkon makes his saving throw and escapes alive back to the party. If not ... well, I think being imploded into bloody rags is more than sufficient punishment for practically any misdeed I could care to name.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

Not at all. Just because someone deserves to be terminated doesn't mean they have to be terminated. Roy has the option to show mercy. And "mercy triumphs over judgement", in some times and some places.

Roy also has the option to not show mercy, but still take into account Durkon's previous record. If he has gained leeway, that is not mercy, and if he is not kicked out due to that, that means it was not deserved.

Belkar could do far less and potentially be kicked out, and would be deserved, because he has significantly less leeway. That does not mean he would have less mercy.

[RatElemental]

As others have pointed out, this isn't Schlock Mercenary. Roy is the de facto leader, but ever since he tore up the contracts this hasn't been an employer/employee relationship. To oust Durkon he'd have to have the rest of the order backing him up on that, or risk a schism.

There are no hardline rules for being a member of the order of the stick, at least none that I'm aware of. If this were a real game, the same would more or less be true: OOC at least the players would all be on equal footing, even if they decided to elect an IC leader. If no one OOC wanted to follow the leader's IC orders, they could just decide to say sod it all and not do it.

[bunsen_h]

Second, Durkon does have a solid track record and is pretty much the only other good aligned character on the team with an int score above 3.

Elan isn't the sharpest crayon in the box, but he's considerably brighter than 3 INT. He's improved a lot since the early days.

Minrah's part of the team now, pretty bright, and her alignment appears to be LG. Level-wise, she's well behind the others, granted.

[pendell]

As others have pointed out, this isn't Schlock Mercenary. Roy is the de facto leader, but ever since he tore up the contracts this hasn't been an employer/employee relationship. To oust Durkon he'd have to have the rest of the order backing him up on that, or risk a schism.

There are no hardline rules for being a member of the order of the stick, at least none that I'm aware of. If this were a real game, the same would more or less be true: OOC at least the players would all be on equal footing, even if they decided to elect an IC leader. If no one OOC wanted to follow the leader's IC orders, they could just decide to say sod it all and not do it.

There is precedent . If it were not for the convenient memory charm on Sunken Valley, Haley would have thrown out Belkar and it would have stuck. For an offense a lot less grievous -- though murdering an NPC in cold blood is still pretty blinkin' grievous, make no mistake -- then putting the entire party at risk and jeopardizing the mission, not to mention the entire world. And this was after Roy tore up their membership cards. Inviting them along as free citizens and equals doesn't mean a complete loss of party discipline. Even pirates have rules . And just because OOTS doesn't have rules written down doesn't mean they don't have them at all. Seasoned adventurers shouldn't need a rule telling them not to go off on their own when they've specifically been told not to.

If Roy wanted to make an issue of it, given how strong a leader he is, I don't think anyone save Elan and Minrah are going to push back too hard. It also depends on just how many people Durkon's mistake gets killed. I think everyone in the party will be a lot more willing to let it go if it all works out, no one dies, and they save the world. If it doesn't -- well, the worse Durkon makes things the less forgiving the other party members will be.

Still, we all know Durkon won't be kicked out , so there's really not much point in me arguing further about something that's not going to happen.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[RatElemental]

I agree it's largely a hypothetical to even consider Durkon being kicked out. I do want to say that the only people present when Haley was about to boot Belkar were the two of them and Celia. This on top of him being the least liked member of the order (by other members of the order, anyway). Not much Durkon, Elan, Roy or V could have done about it at the time or after the fact if it had succeeded, assuming any of them would have even wanted to.

[ebarde]

How is anyone even gonna have the moral high ground to kick Durkon off the party right after all of them mistaking him for a vampire that almost destroyed the world lol

[Peelee]

There is precedent . If it were not for the convenient memory charm on Sunken Valley, Haley would have thrown out Belkar and it would have stuck.

Because at that point, she was 50% of the Order on attendance and nobody could override her. That's how groups work, the group decides. Belkar couldn't contest it against the group available, so Belkar would have gotten kicked.

And, again, Belkar would have a lower threshold for being booted than Durkon. Which is different than Durkon having more mercy than Belkar - it means Durkon has more leeway than Belkar. That leeway means he does not deserve to get kicked for things Belkar would deserve to get kicked for. That's how it works.

[arimareiji]

Wrt the debate raging over "Should Durkon be kicked out of the party", two things come to mind:

• The much-more immediate question: Will they ever see him again, or know what he did?
• Let's take it as a given that they have an intangible "right" to do so. Even if we assume that... "Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD." Roy has always been a pragmatist, and to paraphrase Lien back in 584 - "Contrary to popular opinion, Lawful is not always dumb."

[dancrilis]

Because at that point, she was 50% of the Order on attendance and nobody could override her. That's how groups work, the group decides. Belkar couldn't contest it against the group available, so Belkar would have gotten kicked.

And, again, Belkar would have a lower threshold for being booted than Durkon. Which is different than Durkon having more mercy than Belkar - it means Durkon has more leeway than Belkar. That leeway means he does not deserve to get kicked for things Belkar would deserve to get kicked for. That's how it works.

I think it might depend on how you are using the word deserve.

For instance Individual A breaks into Individual B's house tonight and kills Individual B while they sleep.
Individual A presumedly* deserves to face legal punishment for this, regardless of who they are or what they have done in the past.

Under that use of deserve it doesn't matter the Durkon is in good standing if** he deserves to be kicked out of the party for this action then he deserves to be kicked out of the party for this action.

*there are scenarios where they might not
**I don't think he does.

[danielxcutter]

She's chaotic good-ish. If she's chaotic good, she's in the shallow end of the pool, nothing at all like the deep, unquestionable goodness of a Roy or a Durkon.

For example, I can't imagine Durkon or Roy sneak attacking an unarmed person in the shower and then killing them in cold blood, no matter how deserved it was and no matter how much of a threat they posed.

First of all, in the bonus strips it was shown that Crystal had unsubtly tried to kill her despite getting a promise not to from Bozzok. Second, she wasn’t even expecting that to stick, she just didn’t expect Bozzok to turn her into a golem that feels nothing but pain.

I think that against someone who is very much likely to get rezzed like tomorrow that’s less like typical murder and more like assault. It’s not what I’d have had my character do, but I don’t think it’s exactly some super-Evil thing either.

“Haley isn’t quite as Good does make sense though; I’d say Elan > Durkon > Roy > Haley in terms of Goodness, personally.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I thought there were only three planes of Good?

There are seven Good aligned Outer Planes. Three of which are also among the seven Lawful aligned Outer Planes. Likewise, there are seven each for Evil aligned and Chaos aligned. Basically, there's a plane for each alignment and then one between each alignment except True Neutral.

[danielxcutter]

Elysium: NG
Beastlands: NG/CG
Arborea: CG
Ysgard: CG/CN
Limbo: CN
Pandemonium: CN/CE
Abyss: CE
Carceri: NE/CE
Hades: NE
Gehenna: LE/NE
Baator: LE
Acheron: LN/LE
Mechanus: LN
Arcadia: LG/LN
Celestia: LG
Bytopia: LG/NG

Outlands: TN

[Peelee]

There's also a handy dandy visual guide some guy drew.

[understatement]

Okay, thanks so much. I wasn't sure about the "transitional" alignments.

[Gurgeh]

I'd assume he's done so, since it's morning (Belkar waking up) and Team Evil does their dungeon diving at dusk.

I don't think that the bolded part has been established. There wasn't any indication that I can recall of time of day in the scene where Oona's introduced and Redcloak is preparing his spells (though, to be fair, since they're at the North Pole the time of day is not easy to determine from the ambient light).

Note that there's a scene in Start of Darkness where Redcloak prepares his spells in what seems to be broad daylight (page 27).

The only cleric in the setting who definitely prepared their spells at dusk was the High Priest of Hel - but the time for spell preparation isn't mandated by the cleric's alignment or even their god's; by 3.5 RAW it's entirely up to the individual Cleric (though it wouldn't be unreasonable for a setting to allow deities to mandate a particular time for their clerics to meditate and prepare their spells).

[Dion]

she just didn’t expect Bozzok to turn her into a golem

He turned her into a Crystal Golem. Haley had to have known there was no way he was going to turn down the chance for an awful pun.

[Mariele]

Skimming this...

I honestly thought the biggest deciding factor in Haley not being Good was her willingness to sell the bandits as slaves. That's Evil. Evil, evil, evil, no matter how you spin it. She only said no because Roy was around. Killing someone who is pretty blatantly after your life and has the resources to be raised seems like... more Neutral than outright Evil. So I'm always surprised when people use the Crystal example as the "Haley can't be Good!" example.

I don't think Redcloak recognized Greg out in the desert. He wasn't with the group at the time, was he? He was still with Malack and Nale.

[Dion]

Can someone explain why would they kick Durkon out of the party? I guess I honestly don’t understand the reason for suggesting that?

Will it somehow be easier to kill Xykon without Durkon’s help? Or what would the reason be?

[ebarde]

Pretty sure Rich said Haley is good already, but was Chaotic Neutral for most of the comic. The whole slavery thing was honestly just cause the comic was a bit less inconsistent on characterization back then, this was way back at the start of book 2. If I were to put my finger on it, Haley became Chaotic Good during blood runs in the family.

[ijuinkun]

Laughed real hard. Mostly because I can just hear Belkar saying that line so well.

Funnily enough, I often imagine Belkar speaking with Eric Cartman's voice . . .

[understatement]

I don't think that the bolded part has been established. There wasn't any indication that I can recall of time of day in the scene where Oona's introduced and Redcloak is preparing his spells (though, to be fair, since they're at the North Pole the time of day is not easy to determine from the ambient light).

Note that there's a scene in Start of Darkness where Redcloak prepares his spells in what seems to be broad daylight (page 27).

The only cleric in the setting who definitely prepared their spells at dusk was the High Priest of Hel - but the time for spell preparation isn't mandated by the cleric's alignment or even their god's; by 3.5 RAW it's entirely up to the individual Cleric (though it wouldn't be unreasonable for a setting to allow deities to mandate a particular time for their clerics to meditate and prepare their spells).

Looks like it's dusk here, since the sun is setting, and Oona tells Redcloak to hurry up with his spells since it's "already dusk." Haley also mentions that Lien contacted her at night. As for the SOD scene, it's possible Redcloak could've waited for daylight to come before attacking the castle.

Regardless, Durkon is smoked either way.

[hamishspence]

If I were to put my finger on it, Haley became Chaotic Good during blood runs in the family.

Based on this:

Facts about cosmological forces are largely unrelated to what people feel about themselves and others. Haley feels she is not "Good enough" based on a complex set of personal experiences and insecurities; the universe still dumps her in the Chaotic Good box, next to Elan and Shojo.

I'd say Haley's been CG all through the comic - it's just that early on, she wasn't confident in the fact that she was Good.

[Gurgeh]

Looks like it's dusk here, since the sun is setting, and Oona tells Redcloak to hurry up with his spells since it's "already dusk." Haley also mentions that Lien contacted her at night. As for the SOD scene, it's possible Redcloak could've waited for daylight to come before attacking the castle.

Regardless, Durkon is smoked either way.

MitD also talks about preparing spells "for the night" so yeah, not much room for interpretation there - I'd just glossed over way too much of it on my readings - sorry! I think I'd expected the sun to be somewhat more coloured, and took the ambient lighting as meaning it was broad daylight and overcast.

And yes, Durkon is definitely toast if he tries to fight.

[PattThe]

I think it's a blessing in disguise. Durkon is totally getting blown to pieces- this whole long scene was his goodbye. He's a static character and we're going into the endgame. People like Redcloak have to realize their situation and rise up to do what Durkon couldn't and change their point of view.

>1143

Durkon in this scene had just one purpose. Get that 9th level slot out. Think about it this way: Is it not far more dramatic for the other dwarven priest and the rest of the cast to have to figure out all these metaphysical consequences without Durkon just spelling it out for everyone every time?
Durkon's head stretched in that last panel. He is absolutely toast. The 9th level slot is out, and Thor's going to be happy that Durkon did what was needed.

Durkon, for the narrative, has to leave for the others to grow into their own. IMO.

PS: Also, I think the party just has to figure something out with the Snarl that the party hasn't. Planet inside the snarl and all that. The gods' plan to get a 9th level slot from the Dark one is, at this point, already underway. That train just left the station. So, from where I sit I'm seeing the gods moving on their plan with the Dark One's quiddity- so the cast has to discover something that they find more important that goes directly in opposition to the gods' plan. There has to be this head on trajectory with what the gods think is right and what the mortals have discovered for this tension to keep going. I see Durkon in the afterlife blindly siding with Thor while the party goes directly against them because they found a loophole (>0623, plus all those great Snarl-isn't-what-we-think-it-is teases) that Durkon wouldn't have believed in.

[hamishspence]

Durkon in this scene had just one purpose. Get that 9th level slot out. Think about it this way: Is it not far more dramatic for the other dwarven priest and the rest of the cast to have to figure out all these metaphysical consequences without Durkon just spelling it out for everyone every time?
Durkon's head stretched in that last panel. He is absolutely toast. The 9th level slot is out, and Thor's going to be happy that Durkon did what was needed.

Blasting Durkon is not exactly "the process of closing the rifts":

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html

Plus, as The Giant said:

It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target. Thor would have just said, "Trick him into casting a spell on you," if that was good enough.

[danielxcutter]

I really hope this isn’t the Durkon antis crawling out of the woodwork or anything like that... don’t think it is, at least.