OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[TRH]

If Gods were guaranteed a free pass to the next world then the Dwarfs could go and find honorable deaths in the meantime or the Gods could wait for the Snarl to break lose and unmake everyone instead of letting Hel win. As for why Hel (might) survive and TDO not, well, there could be more Dwarfs than goblinoids (expecially so close to the War for Azure City) and/or Hel's more long lived existance means she has more reserves than TDO. After all, there seemed to have a lot of files for dishonorable Dwarfs when Thor and Loki were distracting Hel.

Yes, let's do the Eugene Greenhilt plan of self-genocide, that's an option that the OOTS and Thor won't find the least bit abhorrent.

Those files all relate to the wager, which means they're from this world. This argument assumes dishonorable dwarves outnumber all goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, etc. combined. I rather doubt that, especially since goblins are supposed to be very numerous to compensate for their weak stats. There is the matter of souls from prior worlds, but it sounds like worship of currently living mortals is a thing gods need, explaining why Hel isn't stabilized by the mortals who worshiped her before. So she lacks that, while TDO has it.

As a final note, I'll point towards Loki and how he said he's unsure Hel can survive to the next world in her state. If he's right, then, again, her plan was self-defeating.

[Gray Mage]

I don't know. Like I said, I don't think those terms are anywhere near good. It might just be a ”Really? I did what I did and that's the best you and your god can offer?”, perhaps conmbined with a lingering feeling that Durkon's really just a well-meaning fool (Redcloak does not seem to enjoy killing folks he has no reason to hate, and he does not seem to hate Durkon, he just resents his privileges – actual and perceived alike). Perhaps he's also somewhat worried that Durkon might be right about the impending Armageddon Special.
My point is, he has no reason to like those terms, so we don't have to assume he does just that.

Redcloak has never been shy of showing anger, and has repeatedly shown so in this negotiation previously. This doesn't look like anger. I think it does look like shame, or regret. In fact, to me, it looks a lot like (as far as facial expressions of stick figures can be read) when he

Spoiler: SoD Spoilers

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killed Right-Eye

.

[Metastachydium]

I took that the panel with Redcloak closing his eye meant he knew these terms were good -- not perfect, but worth working it out -- but Durkon's crunch is this: give up the Plan (specifically, the plan with Xykon). And we all know how that turned out in SOD.

I don't know. Like I said, I don't think those terms are anywhere near good. It might just be a ”Really? I did what I did and that's the best you and your god can offer?”, perhaps conmbined with a lingering feeling that Durkon's really just a well-meaning fool (Redcloak does not seem to enjoy killing folks he has no reason to hate, and he does not seem to hate Durkon, he just resents his privileges – actual and perceived alike). Perhaps he's also somewhat worried that Durkon might be right about the impending Armageddon Special.
My point is, he has no reason to like those terms, so we don't have to assume he does just that.

Also, compare the first two panels of page no. 2 here.

[Rrmcklin]

I think it interesting that Durkon realizes that he made a mistake with Malack, and that he could should not have attacked because Malack was a vampire.
It is great to see him try to move past lawful stupid, just as he is trying to move past being passive.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working out for him again...

Durkon witnessed Malack attempting to kill/turn one of his companions, and all of Malack's attempts at "compromise" were actually code for "you and your team, while my team get to win". There was nothing Lawful Stupid about Durkon's action there.

[Fyraltari]

A living planet would have bugs and jellyfish in the waters. And no Snarl.

It doesn't rule out the idea someone had that the stars in that planet's sky are planets settled with the inhabitants of previous worlds swallowed by the Snarl. But it's got some folks from OOS-world... and there's little evidence that they are living there.

My point is that we don’t have nearly’ enough information on either the Snarl or the World-Within to make sweeping statements.

I mean, not that I disagree with you there (I only partially do, but that's not my point here), but I would really like the following scene if and when Redcloak is brought to some sort of justice outside combat:

(Someone, preferably an Azurite): "What could be punishment enough for what you did?"
RC: "Well, you could do something Lawful and Good, such as maybe kill my family and destroy my village in front of me?"

Because, at the end of the day, Evil or not, Redcloak has a point that there's something fundamentally, horribly broken there. And worse: there, but for the love of the gods, goes anyone else. Roy, Haley, Elan, you name it.

That already happened. Second to last panel.

But isn't The Plan "gain control of the Snarl in order to use it to force the gods into concessions for goblinoids"? Is the end goal goblinoid justice, or is it to eradicate the other pantheons? Because it seems like the former is within Redcloak's reach right now, actual Snarl/Gate in hand or no. I haven't read SoD so maybe I am missing something, but it seems like you're saying Redcloak won't accept getting what he wants at any time before the exact moment the Plan says he will. Which seems incredibly short-sighted and self-defeating, which I find out-of-character for Redcloak.

Basically yes, without getting too spoilery, Redcloak has condoned and committed some truly appalling things in the name of the Plan, and more precisely his association with the lich and is unwilling to admit that he was wrong to do so. Therefore he will continue further down along this path because he thinks that of he wins all his choices will be vindicated. This is touched upon in the main comic during the « Occupied Azure City » arc where he looks in the mirror and says to the goblin in the reflection « It will all be worth it, you’ll see ». Xykon telling Tsukiko to call him Wrong-Eye to piss him off was also a call-back to SoD.

I've just read Start of Darkness.

What the azurites did to Redcloak village was loathsome. It makes me think they deserve what they got.

Great! Now you should read How the paladin got his Scar (and frankly the rest of Good deeds gone unpunished, it’s great) to see why it ain’t so.

[The_Weirdo]

Just realized something: Durkon is getting warped, but the table is not. We can safely exclude the possibility that Redcloak is killing himself, as, if this had been from Redcloak's perspective, the table would be warped as well.

[Draconi Redfir]

But on the other hand, if you need a certain amount of worship and soul energy to survive the transition process, then that's bad news for Hel, who also hasn't had much worship of late to draw upon. Her plan hinges on the influx of dwarven souls tiding her over. But if they can, then the Dark One, who has sole custody over the souls of not one race, but several, and who is actively worshiped by mortals as well as getting dedications and souls, would logically have a better chance of making it than she does. If he's in danger, then so is she, and her plan becomes self-defeating.

ahh i see.

Way i see it, assuming the whole pantheon system works kind of like how Elan thought it did in an early comic, a portion of the prayers, souls, and other powers gets divided up among all the other gods in a pantheon. So if we have say, a pantheon of 5, then when people worship god#1, a small amount of that worship will be re-directed to gods 2-5. #1 will still get most of it, but enough will go to the others to keep them going as well. it won't be as much as direct worship, but it's enough.

Between the collective worship of the entire northern pantheon as a whole, plus any energy reserves Hel may have from previous worlds, i figure she'd survive just fine, even if the world wasn't dishonorable destroyed. Since Thor gets so much worship souls and whatever else, more then he'd even need to survive the transition, some of that is inevitably going to leak over to support Hel, and keep her alive as well.

Thor may not be worshiped by a cluster of islands in the northern sea, but Freya might, and since they share a pantheon, Thor would still get a cut of those islander's worship. Dark One doesn't get that luxury, it's all or nothing with him.

The Dark One on the other hand is a pantheon of one, he has no one to back him up. Even with all the souls and worship of all the goblinoids in the world, he's still not as widespread as the entire northern pantheon put together. Plus the entire northern pantheon collectively probably has some power leftover from not just previous worlds, but earlier in this worlds timeline as well. TDO didn't show up until mid to late into this world's timeline, he's been effectively a god for only days, while the others have years under their belt. There might be some degree of honor, familial bond, or whatever else among the gods in a pantheon as well. The gods who have more power then they need to survive to the next world may intentionally give Hel the power she'd need (assuming she doesn't already have it) to survive to the next, because a god dying is worse then that particular god being your enemy. TDO again doesn't have that, he's alone, has been around for a much smaller amount of time, and comparatively has fewer followers and souls.

Granted this Speculation (And this is 100% speculation here, i'm not claiming any of this is true) doesn't really cover situations like the Elven gods or other risen gods who WERE brought in to pre-existing pantheons. Perhaps while you get a bit of support from the pantheon as a whole, you still need a good supply of energy built up yourself. Which TDO probably doesn't have at this point.


TL;DR: Between pantheons divvying up power, holding on to power from previous worlds, experience in surviving the transition, and having a much larger range of influence then TDO, i personally don't think that Hel wouldn't make it to the next world. With how many worlds she's been through, one world of lackluster support probably stings, but isn't a danger. No worse then a single person going without food for a single day, having eaten normally both before and after.

[Jason]

For those who think Redcloak is Imploding himself, I think it's pretty clear in the third-to-last panel that he's pointing at Durkon when he says "Implosion". If he were imploding himself he would be aiming his hand at himself, wouldn't he?

[understatement]

Also, compare the first two panels of page no. 2 here.

If Redcloak wanted to get rid of Durkon (and not silence him the way he did with Tsukiko), he could just Planeshift him out. No; he wanted to get rid of "the dwarf" as quickly and as certain of an outcome as possible, and barely any other cleric spells gives that guarantee.

I think that if the terms weren't good then Redcloak would continue to haggle it over with Durkon, not jump straight to killing. The terms must've been feasible in some way, or at least good enough to continue pursuing or amending, which is why Redcloak shows brief regret/shame right before he goes for the killing blow.

[Dausuul]

But isn't The Plan "gain control of the Snarl in order to use it to force the gods into concessions for goblinoids"? Is the end goal goblinoid justice, or is it to eradicate the other pantheons? Because it seems like the former is within Redcloak's reach right now, actual Snarl/Gate in hand or no. I haven't read SoD so maybe I am missing something, but it seems like you're saying Redcloak won't accept getting what he wants at any time before the exact moment the Plan says he will. Which seems incredibly short-sighted and self-defeating, which I find out-of-character for Redcloak.

Yeah, it's difficult to fully grasp what's going on here without having read SoD, which is why I suspect the next strip will flesh things out a bit.

What it comes down to is that Redcloak, much like Vaarsuvius, is a highly intelligent character who prides himself on thinking rationally and strategically. But, also like Vaarsuvius, he has certain blind spots that can make him behave in deeply irrational ways.

Chief among those blind spots (and this is getting into SoD stuff, which is why I'm not being more specific) is that he has committed terrible crimes in the name of his alliance with Xykon. He can only justify those crimes to himself by clinging to the belief that they were necessary for the greater good. To sustain that self-deception, he has to keep pushing forward so that he and Xykon can complete the ritual and fulfill the Dark One's Plan.

If he abandons the alliance, then he has to face the fact that those awful deeds were all for naught. Abandoning the alliance might better serve his original goals, but Redcloak won't let himself see that.

[Gray Mage]

Yes, let's do the Eugene Greenhilt plan of self-genocide, that's an option that the OOTS and Thor won't find the least bit abhorrent.

Yes, they would. Other gods, not so much, I'd wager. It's also something that they seem to do when they know they don't have much longer on the world.

Those files all relate to the wager, which means they're from this world. This argument assumes dishonorable dwarves outnumber all goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, etc. combined. I rather doubt that, especially since goblins are supposed to be very numerous to compensate for their weak stats. There is the matter of souls from prior worlds, but it sounds like worship of currently living mortals is a thing gods need, explaining why Hel isn't stabilized by the mortals who worshiped her before. So she lacks that, while TDO has it.

As a final note, I'll point towards Loki and how he said he's unsure Hel can survive to the next world in her state. If he's right, then, again, her plan was self-defeating.

Yes, but she has all the dishonorable dwarfs since the start of this world, if she still doesn't have any previous souls from the previous one, while TDO only has souls of goblins since he became a god. And Loki doesn't think she can survive the transition to the next world as she is, but maybe the high influx of souls from all the living Dwarves (since they all would die dishonorably) could have been enough for her. Living dwarves and every dishonorable dwarf since the start of the world could outnumber living goblinoids plus dead ones since TDO came to be.

[TRH]

Look, we've got to indulge in even more speculation, a lot of it very convoluted, just to reconcile the last book's main conflict with this one plot point about whether TDO will outlive this world. To return to my original question: from a Doylist perspective, why the hell are we doing this? Why are we tying ourselves in knots about arcane cosmology and hair-splitting about relative conjectural numbers of souls, how long the Dark One has been in existence relative to the age of this world, the comparative demographics of dwarves and goblins, and sundry other considerations, all to decide this one question that contributes little to nothing to the story? Maybe we'll reach a point later where it actually matters, but it seems highly doubtful that the world will be destroyed regardless, so this idea only has relevance in how it affects the characters and their motivations. And with the possible exception of Loki, I fail to see how it changes anyone's preferences or calculations about their best course of action. And yet again, I'll remind us all that Durkon can't support this tortuously complex argument with any evidence, so it's less than useless in a discussion with Redcloak.

[Metastachydium]

If Redcloak wanted to get rid of Durkon (and not silence him the way he did with Tsukiko), he could just Planeshift him out. No; he wanted to get rid of "the dwarf" as quickly and as certain of an outcome as possible, and barely any other cleric spells gives that guarantee.

I think that if the terms weren't good then Redcloak would continue to haggle it over with Durkon, not jump straight to killing. The terms must've been feasible in some way, or at least good enough to continue pursuing or amending, which is why Redcloak shows brief regret/shame right before he goes for the killing blow.

What was there to haggle over? Durkon just admitted he can only (probably) influence the position of one god and one leader of one human nation. Durkon was visibly unsure whether Thor can convince the other gods to get on board (just look at his face in page 1, panel 8), and he admitted openly that a deal with him has a more than fair chance of not stopping anyone from sticking to the whole ”kill goblinoids on sight” policy. There was precious little for Redcloak in this proposed deal, and Durkon made it abundantly clear that even that might not work out in Gobbotopia's favour.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Oh gods damnit, we JUST got that cleric back!

Fort save.

Cleric has good Fort saves progression and Dwarves have a bonus to Con.

Durkon is gonna be fine.

[Riarra]

Geez. I was so excited for the Order to finally get an idea of what Redcloak's whole deal is, and then Redcloak kills Durkon before he can communicate with the others. This is why we can't have nice things.

(I don't actually think Durkon's dying here, but still. Dangit Redcloak.)

The way Redcloak looks away hurts me. It looks like he sees the parallel here and he does it anyway. I love him but he's such a stressful character to like.

[TRH]

Will save.

Cleric has good Will saves progression and use Wis as their primary stat.

Hilgya is gonna be fine.

In the alternate timeline where she stays in Valhalla, I imagine this would be a solid epitaph for Minrah.

[Draconi Redfir]

Look, we've got to indulge in even more speculation, a lot of it very convoluted, just to reconcile the last book's main conflict with this one plot point about whether TDO will outlive this world. To return to my original question: from a Doylist perspective, why the hell are we doing this? Why are we tying ourselves in knots about arcane cosmology and hair-splitting about relative conjectural numbers of souls, how long the Dark One has been in existence relative to the age of this world, the comparative demographics of dwarves and goblins, and sundry other considerations, all to decide this one question that contributes little to nothing to the story?

because speculation is fun?

[TRH]

because speculation is fun?

I don't think deliberately introducing plot holes into your work so that a horde of internet pedants have something to argue over is good writing practice, myself.

[t209]

I know Fortitude save is a thing, but you do know that Nat 1 is still a thing.

[Draconi Redfir]

I don't think deliberately introducing plot holes into your work so that a horde of internet pedants have something to argue over is good writing practice, myself.

Well, i doubt they're deliberately put in there, or even that they could be plot holes themselves. People just like looking for things that could be entirely meaningless and reaching out for what they could mean.

How many times have you seen people say "X (person-we-haven't-met) IS ACTUALLY Y (Person-we-have-met)!" when there was little to no evidence to support it, and it was far more likely that it's a completely new character that we just haven't met yet?

I've seen it a lot. This is just something people do.

[Rrmcklin]

I've just read Start of Darkness.

What the azurites did to Redcloak village was loathsome. It makes me think they deserve what they got.

So a bunch of innocents being slaughtered for something they knew nothing about means it's only fair that a bunch of other innocents are also slaughtered for something they knew nothing about? Because that's what you're saying.

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, it's difficult to fully grasp what's going on here without having read SoD, which is why I suspect the next strip will flesh things out a bit.

What it comes down to is that Redcloak, much like Vaarsuvius, is a highly intelligent character who prides himself on thinking rationally and strategically. But, also like Vaarsuvius, he has certain blind spots that can make him behave in deeply irrational ways.

Chief among those blind spots (and this is getting into SoD stuff, which is why I'm not being more specific) is that he has committed terrible crimes in the name of his alliance with Xykon. He can only justify those crimes to himself by clinging to the belief that they were necessary for the greater good. To sustain that self-deception, he has to keep pushing forward so that he and Xykon can complete the ritual and fulfill the Dark One's Plan.

If he abandons the alliance, then he has to face the fact that those awful deeds were all for naught. Abandoning the alliance might better serve his original goals, but Redcloak won't let himself see that.

An interesting fact:

Spoiler: SoD, p. 107

Show

in SoD Xykon is wrong about how Right-Eye's death will affect their relationship on the long run. He tells Redcloak that he's „just going to continue (…) doing whatever [he] order[s Redcloak] to do. Because as long as [Redcloak is] loyal to [him, he]'ll let [Redcloak] pretend [Right-Eye's death] never happened.” Redcloak does not do whatever he orders him to do (reshuffling the furniture in Gobbotopia would come to mind), at the very least ever since the moment when he stole Xykon's phylactery, he's not been loyal to him. Xykon does his very best to make him remember Right-Eye's death (and his involvement in it), and Redcloak does not pretend he doesn't – he's just trying to justify it.

[Inst]

There's a sort of dramatic merit if Redcloak is saying yes to Durkon by blowing himself up (or more accurately, imploding himself), i.e, this is the only way he can consult his god. Redcloak, always, has been an extremist, and if we wish to believe that he's not completely self-deluded in his utilitarianism (it's an excuse, not a motivation), he has to be willing to toss himself down the well. In a way, you can see the mental struggle going on.

Redcloak is basically being told that what he's worked for all his life and what he's sacrificed everything, family, brothers, even any shred of self-respect or morality for, has been a lie. His plan would never have worked because it would have triggered the gods to nuke the world before he could ever get close. Consequently, he's faced with a dilemma.

Redcloak can either try to grasp onto the faith that drives him, or he can grasp onto the faith that he believes in. The former is rather simple, use a series of more reliable spells to pelt Durkon into dwarfburger. The latter, on the other hand, requires his self-destruction because it is already his self-destruction; the Redcloak that's been built up over the years, all the psychological faiths, justifications, etc, that have driven him to this point, has to go. So what better way to complete it than by killing himself and getting revived?

If you look at Durkon's shocked look, it is perfectly plausible his shock isn't based on Durkon being hit by an implosion spell. Moreover, if you look at the art scenes, Redcloak is obviously going through some internal agony, such as the one someone preparing to kill themselves (and yes, it's always going to be painful) will go through.

===

In a way, the Implosion spell is symbolically apt. Durkon has, in his own way, imploded Redcloak's worldview. He's told him that everything Redcloak has done has been for naught the entire time. The choice of implosion as a suicide spell (i.e, requires high-level magic to undo) is also, among other things, a particularly painful way to die, like a ritual suicide. And it's Redcloak being the extremist again; in the event that TDO says no and Durkon doesn't do Resurrection / True Resurrection for him (i.e, it's all perfidy, as Redcloak is justified in suspecting), he's going to be absorbed by TDO and is never going to live on the mortal plane again. Redcloak seems to be all about going all the way.

===

One other thing: since I'm not a D&Der, what happens with Xykon's phylactery? If Redcloak implodes himself, doesn't the phylactery get destroyed as well? And without the phylactery, what happens to Xykon?

[understatement]

What was there to haggle over? Durkon just admitted he can only (probably) influence the position of one god and one leader of one human nation. Durkon was visibly unsure whether Thor can convince the other gods to get on board (just look at his face in page 1, panel 8), and he admitted openly that a deal with him has a more than fair chance of not stopping anyone from sticking to the whole ”kill goblinoids on sight” policy. There was precious little for Redcloak in this proposed deal, and Durkon made it abundantly clear that even that might not work out in Gobbotopia's favour.

I figured if Redcloak found those terms bad, he would've continued arguing (like he has the past 3-4 strips) and not just sit down and think about it. And if it was such a bad deal, he wouldn't feel the shame/regret he expresses right before casting.

In any case, he could also simply not kill Durkon and used a non-lethal spell to make him go away.

Geez. I was so excited for the Order to finally get an idea of what Redcloak's whole deal is, and then Redcloak kills Durkon before he can communicate with the others. This is why we can't have nice things.

(I don't actually think Durkon's dying here, but still. Dangit Redcloak.)

The way Redcloak looks away hurts me. It looks like he sees the parallel here and he does it anyway. I love him but he's such a stressful character to like.

This is so similar to V accepting the deal from the IFFC -- the "I must succeed" part. Being offered an alternative plan that, while may or may not work, is worth looking into, at least, and they both turned it down.

With that being said, it's only 20 strips in, not 200. There's no way Durkon would've ever sealed the deal so early in, but there's also no way he's going to be killed that early either...right?

[TRH]

If Redcloak was imploding himself, wouldn't the last panel involve him starting to distort? It would be even more shocking, and cause us less whiplash going into the next strip.

[Marp]

The thing that I find the strangest here is that the Giant used the "" icon for this discussion thread. I would expect "" instead.

[Rrmcklin]

Considering much of the strip was dedicated to Durkon pointing out exactly how things ending badly (i.e. death) for all goblinoids was one of the most likely conclusions of everything here, I really doubt we're supposed to see Redcloak turning down this offer as logic because it wasn't good enough.

Durkon gave it to him straight - there are no magic fixes for this situation. Yes, that's unfair and it shouldn't be that way, but this was the best starting point he's going to get.

Given everything we know about the character, I'm really not understanding the push to try and make him out to be more reasonably/rational than he's shown himself to be.

[Inst]

Also, counter-evidence for the Redcloak suicide theory:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html

Check out the state of the elf before he implodes.

Personally, I'd find watching Redcloak implode himself to be most satisfying, but forcing Durkon to decide for him with a fortitude throw is good enough.

[Gray Mage]

I don't think deliberately introducing plot holes into your work so that a horde of internet pedants have something to argue over is good writing practice, myself.

From an out of universe explanation, gods not always making to the next world is here to justify why this world matters. Otherwise next world would have been Snarl-proof, so unmaking this world would have been a valid (even if not ideal) outcome.

Anyway, Loki and Thor (who have experienced this period between worlds) think that Hel and TDO as they are might not make it, while Hel with all the sudden influx of dwarven souls is likely to make it.

[Metastachydium]

I figured if Redcloak found those terms bad, he would've continued arguing (like he has the past 3-4 strips) and not just sit down and think about it. And if it was such a bad deal, he wouldn't feel the shame/regret he expresses right before casting.

I don't think so. Durkon presented everything he had to offer, and asked a yes/no question, urging Redcloak to make up his mind. There was nothing to conyinue arguing about it.
As for the goblin's facial expressions, he could have been sad or worried for other reasons (I tried to outline some). He could have been acting. Until proven otherwise, I'll assume it was one or the other, since I see nothing Redcloak would have to regret about not accepting a deal which (even according to Durkon) likely wouldn't have helped him much anyway (mind you, Redcloak is mildly skeptical about the threat of Armageddon Special), period.

In any case, he could also simply not kill Durkon and used a non-lethal spell to make him go away.

Well, certainly. Implosion is a very-very rude way of saying no. Nevertheless, as many posters have already pointed out, it is a very efficient way of solving Redcloak's problems here. If he was going to say no anyway, he had reason to expect Durkon (whose group has inconvenienced him before) is soon to become his enemy again. He had no use for him, and he needed no high level enemies around. In this situation, Implosion, a spell which is impossible to dodge, hard to block and quick to kill would seem to be a good (if evil) way of using the element of surprise which was on Redcloak's side.

This is so similar to V accepting the deal from the IFFC -- the "I must succeed" part. Being offered an alternative plan that, while may or may not work, is worth looking into, at least, and they both turned it down.

You do realize you're arguing for my position here, don't you? When Qarr called bovine excrement on the „alternative plan” the IFCC offered to V, the archfiends basically admitted he's right, and it wouldn't have worked.