OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[Sholos]

I have been a Redcloak fan for quite some time, but this is just foolish. Self-destructive and foolish.

That's Redcloak in a nutshell.

[Elvensilver]

-snip-

Honestly, at this point, if Red Cloak was directly told by his own god to knock it off, forget the plan and work with the Order to save the world, Red Cloak might honestly REFUSE to do so, because the Plan has to work. He might defy even his god because the god isn't doing what Red Cloak has convinced himself needs to happen.
-snip-

While it may be a crackpoint theory -Where did we ever get confirmation that TDO is still seeing the snarl-plan as his best choice? Sure, we did get the message from Jirix "Don't screw this up.-No pressure though." https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html But just before TDO statted: "They will be battles of trade and logistics, diplomacy and intrigue, but they will be battles nonetheless. Go now. My true prophet waits for you." And maybe, just maybe - this (which may not be screwed up) is not the plan, but the before mentioned course of actions.
And TDO doesn't talk to RC, so RC is probably not very high up in TDO's good graces right now.

[Inst]

I don't think so. Durkon presented everything he had to offer, and asked a yes/no question, urging Redcloak to make up his mind. There was nothing to conyinue arguing about it.
As for the goblin's facial expressions, he could have been sad or worried for other reasons (I tried to outline some). He could have been acting. Until proven otherwise, I'll assume it was one or the other, since I see nothing Redcloak would have to regret about not accepting a deal which (even according to Durkon) likely wouldn't have helped him much anyway (mind you, Redcloak is mildly skeptical about the threat of Armageddon Special), period.



Well, certainly. Implosion is a very-very rude way of saying no. Nevertheless, as many posters have already pointed out, it is a very efficient way of solving Redcloak's problems here. If he was going to say no anyway, he had reason to expect Durkon (whose group has inconvenienced him before) is soon to become his enemy again. He had no use for him, and he needed no high level enemies around. In this situation, Implosion, a spell which is impossible to dodge, hard to block and quick to kill would seem to be a good (if evil) way of using the element of surprise which was on Redcloak's side.



You do realize you're arguing for my position here, don't you? When Qarr called bovine excrement on the „alternative plan” the IFCC offered to V, the archfiends basically admitted he's right, and it wouldn't have worked.

I'll say, right now Durkon has almost achieved his objective, even if he's going to end up dead again. The entity Durkon wants to negotiate with isn't Redcloak, for which all the concessions Durkon has to make are onerous, but The Dark One. Redcloak obviously has psychological issues that may prevent him from acting in a rational way to the offer made by Durkon, something that's pretty much an optimal choice for Redcloak and TDO. But the decision-maker needed isn't Redcloak, it's TDO. Even if Redcloak agrees to any of this, it doesn't matter if TDO says no.

Durkon, importantly, has made his point clear to Redcloak. If Redcloak ends up getting killed as a result of his perfidy (Durkon survives, Minnah is lying in ambush, Durkon has back-up, etc), he'll be sent to TDO's realm, and TDO will know what he knows. The only thing needed now for Durkon to achieve his goal is for Redcloak to die.

[LadyEowyn]

No matter how I look at this, it doesn’t make sense. The entire point of the Plan requires negotiations. If he doesn’t like Durkon’s terms, the correct answer is “Go talk to your god and come back with better terms.”

I’m going to wait for the next comic to see where this is going, because I can’t come up with any strong ideas on where this is going.

[darkelement]

I found this comic both a relief to read and quite amusing. I mean, sure, poor Durkon and all that, but I was honestly starting to sweat that this whole "Redcloak is actually a good guy and most of his actions and decisions are justified" thing was going to become canon. Because, to quote a great man named Weather Report, "The kind of evil that doesn't realize it's evil is the worst kind there is". Redcloak committing atrocities and calling himself a hero is, in a very real way, worse than Xykon committing atrocities and reveling in being a villain.

What I'm actually more interested in, presuming Durkon survives and I have to assume he will, is how Roy is going to react to the fact that Durkon completely betrayed him like this. It's going to be pretty rough when Roy realizes that he can't trust Durkon ever again. The dwarf's first loyalty is to his god, and his friends, as well as his mortal race and mortals more generally, come second.

I sense that the word "betrayal" strikes many people as being too strong. I don't think it does. Rationally speaking, Durkon very likely just signed the death warrant of his whole team because his God talked him into an extremely ambitious scheme. Maybe it was for good reasons. But the fact of the matter is, it's clear where his loyalties lie now. I think we all know that Durkon thought Roy was likely to agree to this attempt then he would have. On some level he knew that Roy wouldn't accept this (and for that matter it's hard to see that V or even Belkar would have anything good to say about it, either) which is why he didn't ask. Not asking is forgivable. Not even bothering to tell him first is less so, in my estimation.

Full disclosure here, I have my biases, and just as I don't think 'betrayal' is too strong up there, I don't think "hate" is too strong a word for my feelings towards Durkon - not because I don't think he's well written, but because the way he is. Our reactions to these characters is all a matter of personality and worldview. I am absolutely rooting against Durkon shouldering everybody else aside and becoming the true hero of the story.

[Dausuul]

An interesting fact:

Spoiler: SoD, p. 107

Show

in SoD Xykon is wrong about how Right-Eye's death will affect their relationship on the long run. He tells Redcloak that he's „just going to continue (…) doing whatever [he] order[s Redcloak] to do. Because as long as [Redcloak is] loyal to [him, he]'ll let [Redcloak] pretend [Right-Eye's death] never happened.” Redcloak does not do whatever he orders him to do (reshuffling the furniture in Gobbotopia would come to mind), at the very least ever since the moment when he stole Xykon's phylactery, he's not been loyal to him. Xykon does his very best to make him remember Right-Eye's death (and his involvement in it), and Redcloak does not pretend he doesn't – he's just trying to justify it.

Well, that's Xykon's blind spot - arrogance and overconfidence.

Spoiler: SoD discussion

Show

Xykon's main goal in that scene was proving to himself that Redcloak could be trusted to protect the phylactery if Xykon's body was destroyed. And he did prove that, and he was right: When Xykon's body was destroyed, Redcloak didn't smash the phylactery. He kept it safe and helped Xykon recover.

But Xykon imagines that the end of the Plan will see him and Redcloak commanding the Snarl and using it to rule the world, which would result in Redcloak being under his thumb forever. In fact, Redcloak only needs Xykon until the moment the ritual is complete. After that, he is free to smash the phylactery, and I suspect he intends to do exactly that.

[fuschiawarrior]

Upon thinking about this, I will concede that for Loki, specifically, this bit about TDO's survivability might be a bit more necessary to justify his choice to spare the world. But that only makes his engineering of a wager that would put his daughter at such heavy risk even more questionable. And honestly, even his actions could probably be explained in some less convoluted way.

Loki didn't expect that OOTS world would last as long as it did. He probably thought that Hel would have some decades of subpar nourishment and then they would go back to business as usual with a Hel more appreciative of all kinds of belief.

TDO dying of faith hunger in the intercine period is to make three points: the OOTS world is the only chance of locking the snarl forever; The Plan can't accomplish anything and that the readership can't propose destroy this world and make the next one perfect as a solution.

[Metastachydium]

The entity Durkon wants to negotiate with isn't Redcloak, for which all the concessions Durkon has to make are onerous, but The Dark One.

True enough, but I don't quite see the relevance of the point (for the reason why, please check below.)

I'll say, right now Durkon has almost achieved his objective, even if he's going to end up dead again. (…) Redcloak obviously has psychological issues that may prevent him from acting in a rational way to the offer made by Durkon, something that's pretty much an optimal choice for Redcloak and TDO. But the decision-maker needed isn't Redcloak, it's TDO. Even if Redcloak agrees to any of this, it doesn't matter if TDO says no.

Durkon, importantly, has made his point clear to Redcloak. If Redcloak ends up getting killed as a result of his perfidy (Durkon survives, Minnah is lying in ambush, Durkon has back-up, etc), he'll be sent to TDO's realm, and TDO will know what he knows. The only thing needed now for Durkon to achieve his goal is for Redcloak to die.

„Durkon just admitted he can only (probably) influence the position of one god and one leader of one human nation. Durkon was visibly unsure whether Thor can convince the other gods to get on board (just look at his face in page 1, panel 8), and he admitted openly that a deal with him has a more than fair chance of not stopping anyone from sticking to the whole ”kill goblinoids on sight” policy. There was precious little for Redcloak in this proposed deal, and Durkon made it abundantly clear that even that might not work out in Gobbotopia's favour.” Could someone please explain to me how this is optimal?

No matter how I look at this, it doesn’t make sense. The entire point of the Plan requires negotiations. If he doesn’t like Durkon’s terms, the correct answer is “Go talk to your god and come back with better terms.”

I’m going to wait for the next comic to see where this is going, because I can’t come up with any strong ideas on where this is going.

Durkon made it fairly obvious that this is the best he's willing to offer – no certainties, no guarantees.

I found this comic both a relief to read and quite amusing. I mean, sure, poor Durkon and all that, but I was honestly starting to sweat that this whole "Redcloak is actually a good guy and most of his actions and decisions are justified" thing was going to become canon. Because, to quote a great man named Weather Report, "The kind of evil that doesn't realize it's evil is the worst kind there is". Redcloak committing atrocities and calling himself a hero is, in a very real way, worse than Xykon committing atrocities and reveling in being a villain.

What I'm actually more interested in, presuming Durkon survives and I have to assume he will, is how Roy is going to react to the fact that Durkon completely betrayed him like this. It's going to be pretty rough when Roy realizes that he can't trust Durkon ever again. The dwarf's first loyalty is to his god, and his friends, as well as his mortal race and mortals more generally, come second.

Paradoxically, that's why Durkon's death would be a good thing: it would probably help Roy cope with that.

Well, that's Xykon's blind spot - arrogance and overconfidence.

Spoiler: SoD discussion

Show

Xykon's main goal in that scene was proving to himself that Redcloak could be trusted to protect the phylactery if Xykon's body was destroyed. And he did prove that, and he was right: When Xykon's body was destroyed, Redcloak didn't smash the phylactery. He kept it safe and helped Xykon recover.

But Xykon imagines that the end of the Plan will see him and Redcloak commanding the Snarl and using it to rule the world, which would result in Redcloak being under his thumb forever. In fact, Redcloak only needs Xykon until the moment the ritual is complete. After that, he is free to smash the phylactery, and I suspect he intends to do exactly that.

Good points made there, agreed all throughout.

[LadyEowyn]

Durkon made it fairly obvious that this is the best he's willing to offer – no certainties, no guarantees.

It’s the best that Durkon’s capable of offering, in his own right. That doesn’t remove the possibility that he can relay the conversation to Thor and Thor can offer more.

I agree that the current offer - keep a city you’ve already got solid military control of, and only if Durkon can get several other parties to agree - isn’t a very good one, and not enough for Redcloak to switch from The Plan to containing the Snarl. But outright killing the negotiator gets him nowhere.

[Gift Jeraff]

No matter how I look at this, it doesn’t make sense. The entire point of the Plan requires negotiations. If he doesn’t like Durkon’s terms, the correct answer is “Go talk to your god and come back with better terms.”

I’m going to wait for the next comic to see where this is going, because I can’t come up with any strong ideas on where this is going.

As much as Redcloak likes to think the Plan is about negotiations, I think he knows deep down Right-Eye was right and this is all a petty spiteful god's quest for vengeance and supreme power. The Dark One won't be satisfied with what Durkon is offering.

What I'm actually more interested in, presuming Durkon survives and I have to assume he will, is how Roy is going to react to the fact that Durkon completely betrayed him like this. It's going to be pretty rough when Roy realizes that he can't trust Durkon ever again. The dwarf's first loyalty is to his god, and his friends, as well as his mortal race and mortals more generally, come second.

I sense that the word "betrayal" strikes many people as being too strong. I don't think it does. Rationally speaking, Durkon very likely just signed the death warrant of his whole team because his God talked him into an extremely ambitious scheme. Maybe it was for good reasons. But the fact of the matter is, it's clear where his loyalties lie now. I think we all know that Durkon thought Roy was likely to agree to this attempt then he would have. On some level he knew that Roy wouldn't accept this (and for that matter it's hard to see that V or even Belkar would have anything good to say about it, either) which is why he didn't ask. Not asking is forgivable. Not even bothering to tell him first is less so, in my estimation.

I think this will be a wake up call to Roy that "permanently dealing with the rifts" isn't just an optional quest to get the 100% perfect ending, because that's certainly how he seemed to be treating it with Julia.

[Gray Mage]

„Durkon just admitted he can only (probably) influence the position of one god and one leader of one human nation. Durkon was visibly unsure whether Thor can convince the other gods to get on board (just look at his face in page 1, panel 8), and he admitted openly that a deal with him has a more than fair chance of not stopping anyone from sticking to the whole ”kill goblinoids on sight” policy. There was precious little for Redcloak in this proposed deal, and Durkon made it abundantly clear that even that might not work out in Gobbotopia's favour.” Could someone please explain to me how this is optimal?

Optimal doesn't mean perfect and very often isn't. It's the best that can be achieved, and I don't think Durkon could realistically promise more (or at least while being capable of delivering).

Edit:

I agree that the current offer - keep a city you’ve already got solid military control of, and only if Durkon can get several other parties to agree - isn’t a very good one, and not enough for Redcloak to switch from The Plan to containing the Snarl. But outright killing the negotiator gets him nowhere.

Killing the negotiator burns this bridge and removes the temptation of deviating from The Plan.

[fuschiawarrior]

Could someone please explain to me how this is optimal?

It is better than TDO's plan. The Gods as a group don't care about OOTS world enough to not destroy it before the ritual is complete and the Dark One will not survive long enough to make another world. Redcloak doesn't know it but he is only being offered this good of a bargain because they need the purple color.

[Dausuul]

I'll say, right now Durkon has almost achieved his objective, even if he's going to end up dead again. The entity Durkon wants to negotiate with isn't Redcloak, for which all the concessions Durkon has to make are onerous, but The Dark One.

No, in fact: Per Thor's specific instructions, Durkon's task is not to convince TDO. He is being sent to talk Redcloak, personally, into providing a 9th-level spell slot, which will give the gods enough purple quiddity to seal the rifts. TDO doesn't need to sign off on the deal.

(Although if Redcloak were to take the deal without TDO's approval, he would probably be cut off from recovering his spell slots, so if he didn't have any 9th-level spells ready to go, Thor's plan would be in a lot of trouble.)

[Rrmcklin]

Even the gods wouldn't be able to offer everything that Redcloak wants; we've seen that Thor can't even convince some of his most devout followers to go against a deeply held cultural belief, and that's just about inanimate plants. Does Redcloak expect the gods to brainwash everyone in the world to get rid of goblinoid prejudice? Because assuming they even could do that, it's highly ethically questionable, at best.

[Metastachydium]

Optimal doesn't mean perfect and very often isn't. It's the best that can be achieved, and I don't think Durkon could realistically promise more (or at least while being capable of delivering).

Since I am no native speaker of English, I checked Merriam-Webster to be sure, and well, it mostly just lists meanings like `most desirable or satisfactory, best or most effective`. And what Durkon dared realistically offer is very, very far from that. Redcloak hopes that Big Purple will be able to use the Gate to force the gods (all or most of them) to accept full-size equality or more, so what Durkon has looks less than appealing (let alone optimal) from his perspective.

It is better than TDO's plan. The Gods as a group don't care about OOTS world enough to not destroy it before the ritual is complete and the Dark One will not survive long enough to make another world. Redcloak doesn't know it but he is only being offered this good of a bargain because they need the purple color.

Just like you said, Redcloak does not seem to believe that's the case.

Even the gods wouldn't be able to offer everything that Redcloak wants; we've seen that Thor can't even convince some of his most devout followers to go against a deeply held cultural belief, and that's just about inanimate plants. Does Redcloak expect the gods to brainwash everyone in the world to get rid of goblinoid prejudice? Because assuming they even could do that, it's highly ethically questionable, at best.

I've had this discussion before, you know, so I have arguments ready against that.
1. Thor did not have to convince his followers that trees are not evil. If he had to, he would have likely put more effort into it, via, for instance,
2. threatening his clerics that he'll strip them of their powers; and/therefore, threatening his followers that he'll strip them of clericl help of any sort if they don't accept his orders not to harm innocent goblins anymore.

[TRH]

Loki didn't expect that OOTS world would last as long as it did. He probably thought that Hel would have some decades of subpar nourishment and then they would go back to business as usual with a Hel more appreciative of all kinds of belief.

TDO dying of faith hunger in the intercine period is to make three points: the OOTS world is the only chance of locking the snarl forever; The Plan can't accomplish anything and that the readership can't propose destroy this world and make the next one perfect as a solution.

The first point goes against the speculation from Sunna that they can keep on waiting until a more reasonable god arises. The second of those points is already accomplished by the simple fact of the Godsmoot, really. The Dark One can't get the Snarl in hand before the other gods take it away from him, and nothing says he's guaranteed to participate in making a future world simply by being there. And the third point is addressed by the fact that Hel's plans have been stalled but not stopped.

More generally, this world already matters beyond anything related to the Snarl because it's the world we've been following for all of these years. That it also has a chance of being the one to end this vicious cycle is sufficient without, again, a bunch of tortured theorizing and conjecture that it's the only world with such a chance. The Order of the Stick themselves aren't the only people in this world with the ability to put an end to Xykon and his evil, they just happen to be the ones who will be doing it, and that's enough for us. It should be the same for the world that they live in.

[Jason]

Redcloak committing atrocities and calling himself a hero is, in a very real way, worse than Xykon committing atrocities and reveling in being a villain.

I'm not sure I agree with you there. Believing that you have good reasons for committing atrocities is wrong, but it is at least understandable. There is also the chance that you will come around to the idea that your justifications were false and stop committing atrocities. A villain who believes he is doing bad things for a good purpose will stop doing those bad things if he realizes his good purpose is not obtainable with those methods.
On the other hand, committing atrocities just because you like to get your kicks is completely selfish and not really something you can recover from. There isn't any chance of redemption there.

The dwarf's first loyalty is to his god, and his friends, as well as his mortal race and mortals more generally, come second.

This is true of any cleric. A cleric's highest loyalty has to be to his god or he doesn't get any spells. Roy is a smart guy - I think he understands that. Durkon has acted what might be termed lawful stupid before and Roy has forgiven him.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am absolutely rooting against Durkon shouldering everybody else aside and becoming the true hero of the story.

So how'd you like book VI? By the way, the hero of this story is The Order of the Stick. The team. Not a single member of the team. Each contributes in their own imperfect way. Been that way since about strip 0001.

He is being sent to talk Redcloak, personally, into providing a 9th-level spell slot, which will give the gods enough purple quiddity to seal the rifts. TDO doesn't need to sign off on the deal.

Implosion is a 9th level spell. Is this what is going on here?

[understatement]

I don't think so. Durkon presented everything he had to offer, and asked a yes/no question, urging Redcloak to make up his mind. There was nothing to conyinue arguing about it.
As for the goblin's facial expressions, he could have been sad or worried for other reasons (I tried to outline some). He could have been acting. Until proven otherwise, I'll assume it was one or the other, since I see nothing Redcloak would have to regret about not accepting a deal which (even according to Durkon) likely wouldn't have helped him much anyway (mind you, Redcloak is mildly skeptical about the threat of Armageddon Special), period.

Why would he need to act? He has nothing to prove to Durkon, especially if he'll kill him. It might be the minimalism of the art, but the few times Redcloak makes that expression pretty much always has to do with regret/getting ready to do something decisive. (the aftermath of SOD's climax, unable to stop Tsukiko from reanimating dead hobgoblins, confessing the Plan).

Well, certainly. Implosion is a very-very rude way of saying no. Nevertheless, as many posters have already pointed out, it is a very efficient way of solving Redcloak's problems here. If he was going to say no anyway, he had reason to expect Durkon (whose group has inconvenienced him before) is soon to become his enemy again. He had no use for him, and he needed no high level enemies around. In this situation, Implosion, a spell which is impossible to dodge, hard to block and quick to kill would seem to be a good (if evil) way of using the element of surprise which was on Redcloak's side.

Okay, I'll agree there. Durkon really shouldn't have mentioned his team, in hindsight.

You do realize you're arguing for my position here, don't you? When Qarr called bovine excrement on the „alternative plan” the IFCC offered to V, the archfiends basically admitted he's right, and it wouldn't have worked.

From specifically V/Redcloak's point of view, not anyone else's. V didn't know that the Plan the IFCC gave them was utter rubbish.

Redcloak turns down the deal nnot because it's completely a crapshoot -- he, being someone smart, would have pointed out the flaws and counterargued. Durkon doesn't point a spell at him and force him to answer. Durkon's not asking him to agree to every detail of the plan -- just the basic flow of it, which is "stop your Plan and help us out."

I'll take a page from LadyEowyn's book and say that I really don't know what's going through RC's mind (I'll wager it's the sunk-cost rearing its head, but it's definitely more complicated than that), but next strip should be illuminating.

[Rrmcklin]

Since I am no native speaker of English, I checked Merriam-Webster to be sure, and well, it mostly just lists meanings like `most desirable or satisfactory, best or most effective`. And what Durkon dared realistically offer is very, very far from that. Redcloak hopes that Big Purple will be able to use the Gate to force the gods (all or most of them) to accept full-size equality or more, so what Durkon has looks less than appealing (let alone optimal) from his perspective.

I pointed out above that's not going to be a thing anyway. The gods can't just instantly change how everyone in the world views goblinoids - hence Durkon's admissions that things will be messy, and long, and a lot of people will be angry. The alternative to that is not something better, it's them all dying as was clearly spelled out in the first page of the strip. That's certainly less "optimal" than the alternative, or even just the status quo remaining the same.

[QUOTE=Just like you said, Redcloak does not seem to believe that's the case.[/QUOTE]

I think the part you seem to be missing here is that Redcloak is not a rational actor.

have[/B] to convince his followers that trees are not evil. If he had to, he would have likely put more effort into it, via, for instance,
2. threatening his clerics that he'll strip them of their powers; and/therefore, threatening his followers that he'll strip them of clericl help of any sort if they don't accept his orders not to harm innocent goblins anymore.

Even assuming you're right, you do understand that most people aren't clerics right? That the gods can threaten their clerics with no spells doesn't actually address the vast majority of people in this world. I feel like this should be obvious.

Without getting into the real world too much, having authority figures go "hey, stop being prejudiced" doesn't make prejudice go away. Expecting any magical/divine "begone racism" solution to this probably was never feasible to begin with. And, yes, that's unfair. But that's how it is.

[Metastachydium]

Why would he need to act? He has nothing to prove to Durkon, especially if he'll kill him. It might be the minimalism of the art, but the few times Redcloak makes that expression pretty much always has to do with regret/getting ready to do something decisive. (the aftermath of SOD's climax, unable to stop Tsukiko from reanimating dead hobgoblins, confessing the Plan).

Well, what he did was pretty decisive. if you ask me.

From specifically V/Redcloak's point of view, not anyone else's. V didn't know that the Plan the IFCC gave them was utter rubbish.

That's about right, yeah.

Redcloak turns down the deal nnot because it's completely a crapshoot -- he, being someone smart, would have pointed out the flaws and counterargued. Durkon doesn't point a spell at him and force him to answer. Durkon's not asking him to agree to every detail of the plan -- just the basic flow of it, which is "stop your Plan and help us out."

That's where we disagree. Durkon made his closing speech, Redcloak decided he does not like it and Durkon is useless to him, so he cut it short.

I'll take a page from LadyEowyn's book and say that I really don't know what's going through RC's mind (I'll wager it's the sunk-cost rearing its head, but it's definitely more complicated than that),

Fair enough, neither do I, and I also agree that his baggage is there – among other things.

but next strip should be illuminating.

That would be nice.

I pointed out above that's not going to be a thing anyway. The gods can't just instantly change how everyone in the world views goblinoids - hence Durkon's admissions that things will be messy, and long, and a lot of people will be angry. The alternative to that is not something better, it's them all dying as was clearly spelled out in the first page of the strip.

Redcloak doesn't know the first, and doesn't believe Durkon's not bluffing about the end of the world. And the gods can change things in a roundabout way, it does not have to be a direct reboot.

assuming you're right, you do understand that most people aren't clerics right? That the gods can threaten their clerics with no spells doesn't actually address the vast majority of people in this world. I feel like this should be obvious.

Without getting into the real world too much, having authority figures go "hey, stop being prejudiced" doesn't make prejudice go away. Expecting any magical/divine "begone racism" solution to this probably was never feasible to begin with. And, yes, that's unfair. But that's how it is.

Certainly. However, they don't have to be clerics, either. It's enough that they need clerical assistance badly. If that's taken away from them, that will be felt.

[Worldsong]

Dammit Redcloak...

[Lombard]

2nd from last row middle panel is like the before scene for new Activia Goblin Formula

[understatement]

No matter how I look at this, it doesn’t make sense. The entire point of the Plan requires negotiations. If he doesn’t like Durkon’s terms, the correct answer is “Go talk to your god and come back with better terms.”

In a technical sense, RC did send Durkon to his god.

I found this comic both a relief to read and quite amusing. I mean, sure, poor Durkon and all that, but I was honestly starting to sweat that this whole "Redcloak is actually a good guy and most of his actions and decisions are justified" thing was going to become canon. Because, to quote a great man named Weather Report, "The kind of evil that doesn't realize it's evil is the worst kind there is". Redcloak committing atrocities and calling himself a hero is, in a very real way, worse than Xykon committing atrocities and reveling in being a villain.

No, it's not. Hypocritical characters are very hard to swallow, because it's grating, but it doesn't make them eviler -- just deluded (in Redcloak's case, evil and deluded.) Honesty/civility =/= goodness.

Xykon for sure does not have more "goodness" than Redcloak. Even Tarquin has more "goodness" than Xykon. Xykon is as evil (or even eviler) than a fiend, and more so because he chose to be.

Well, what he did was pretty decisive. if you ask me.


That's where we disagree. Durkon made his closing speech, Redcloak decided he does not like it and Durkon is useless to him, so he cut it short.

I think the question here is "why didn't Redcloak like it?" You say terms, I say personal baggage...

Next comic it is, then.

[fuschiawarrior]

snip

I agree with you that this world matters just because it is the setting and that a resolution where it is destroyed and all the problems are solved in the next one would be unsatisfying. I agree too that TDO dying before a new world is a redudant plot point but I think it is still necessary especially because my third point. People would argue that damning all dwarfs and turning Hel in the head of the northern pantheon is an okay price to pay to lock up forever the abomination that not only kills but destroys mortal souls.

[Rrmcklin]

Also, I have to ask, if you don't think this is supposed to be a sign of Redcloak being unreasonable, what do you assume happens next? Durkon and/or Minrah contacts Thor, and that somehow leads to more concrete concessions?

Because I feel like after this, that means peaceful negotiations are over. I can't imagine the take away is supposed to be that we were supposed to be on Redcloak's side, but also now the heroes have to try forcing him to participate or something. That would be... very strange narratively, I'd say.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I can’t say I’m too surprised Redcloak rejected this deal, both for its imperfections and his own underlying flaws. But you really can see the difficulty he has in making this decision. That said, I think Durkon was doing a pretty good job negotiating, given the authority he had to wield. I’m sure we’re both shocked by how this turned out, but on second thought it does make sense that if Redcloak is giving up negotiating, he doesn’t want the Order regaining one of its powerful spellcasters. I think this is the most excited I’ve been for a new strip since the Godsmoot.

[RatElemental]

Is there some mechanic that helps target Gate to wherever Durkon ends up?

Knowledge: Religion to know what plane he'd end up on based on his patron deity? Other than that Gate allows you to pinpoint it exactly where you want it, unlike plane shift.

Edit:

I agree the spell doesn't say, but I kind of imagined that being SPLORCHED into a single point would leave very little remains, and so like Disintegrate would need Resurrection to fix rather than Raise Dead.

It also doesn't say that it reduces you to a single point. You can crush something without collapsing it into a singularity.

[Snails]

What was there to haggle over? Durkon just admitted he can only (probably) influence the position of one god and one leader of one human nation. Durkon was visibly unsure whether Thor can convince the other gods to get on board (just look at his face in page 1, panel 8), and he admitted openly that a deal with him has a more than fair chance of not stopping anyone from sticking to the whole ”kill goblinoids on sight” policy. There was precious little for Redcloak in this proposed deal, and Durkon made it abundantly clear that even that might not work out in Gobbotopia's favour.

Certainly there are risks with a peaceful deal. But The Plan itself includes a non-small chance of complete annihilation of goblinkind, and Redcloak has recognized that since forever.

Durkon has informed Redcloak that the world is in danger of immediate destruction. Redcloak's counterargument amounts to nothing more than trusting the Good gods are too nice to allow anything so extreme to occur, even if Neutral and Evil gods are ready to push the button. But isn't his motivation for The Plan and his motivation for rejecting Durkon's deal for Goblotopia founded on the assumption that the Good gods cannot ever be trusted to be nice enough or fair enough at all?

Furthermore, Redcloak is hoping to hand TDO control of a Gate, but what does that men for Goblotopia and that big giant hole in the sky? Without a friendly Xykon around to help, does Redcloak have any chance of repairing it? And who knows if controlling a Gate even matters when it is perfectly plausible that the Snarl will simply decide one day to eat Goboltopia, and then rip open the world anyway.

That The Plan will work out positively for even a single living breathing goblin is looking increasingly unlikely.

If TDO now existing is actually an ace in the hole for goblinkind, then that ace in the hole always exist. That is not an argument for ignoring the interests of Goblotopia now.

[Alchemist_Fire]

Well, Durkon was successful in getting Redcloak to provide a 9th-level spell slot.

That burn is so awesome that half of it is divine damage and the other half is fire