OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[AvangionQ]

I can predict the future: this will be a rare instance of a passed Fort save ... followed immediately by the party finding where they are and attacking.

[Jacky720]

...am I caught up?

I think I'm caught up.

I feel like the two big questions here are: "Why would Redcloak do that?" and 'Will Durkon survive?"

For the first: Sunk cost. He needs to use Xykon to get to his destination or, in his little world, every goblin Xykon killed is on his hands. The new plan doesn't involve that, so he rejects it regardless of how good it is or how good it was ever going to get. Once he decides to reject it, he kills Durkon because Durkon is a high-level enemy cleric. This might be wrong, there might be crazy resurrection plans at work, but I think this theory fits best, all things considered.

For the second: I don't think so, because if he does then there would seem to be no other contingency (lowercase) that can be cast before Redcloak hits him with something different- and it would be kinda convoluted to have another "cleric battle" of 10 saving throws then death seeing as the first was literally a joke. I expect Durkon will be killed and out of the picture for at least a little while, and Minrah will warn the Order. Or it turns out there is a contingency (still lowercase) and that kicks in after the Fortitude save, and Durkon leaves. (Don't tell me about Wind Walk- he doesn't have 30 seconds of leisure)

Other things (I messed up on the quoting, so pardon the paraphrase):

Suicide by Implosion?

1. Suicide is bad
2. The spell targets a person not an area
3. The table is unaffected

Why didn't he mention TDO dying?

1. Uncertain
2. Not verifiable
3. Redcloak didn't bring up Plan B. Durkon hasn't realized that Redcloak would ever try Plan B, and he thinks he's already explained how his option is best.

Why even bother with Azure City's recognition?

Because it would remove most of the crusade threat, so long as Gobbotopia doesn't do anything too despicable. If you think there is no crusade threat, Redcloak basically just said otherwise.

[Alesso]

As I read the text of that spell, I don't think that it will work, since Heal spell won't heal the "you are dead" feature of Implosion, but mostly heals damage and disease and dismemberment.

Fortunate Fate "heals the creature if it is subjected to an effect that would kill it" with the exception of "ability drain, old age, negative levels, disintegration, ability drain, or death effects". Implosion does not rely on any of these, it will just "cause one [per round] creature to collapse in on itself, killing it".

Dead (-10 Hit Points or Lower)

When your characterÂ’s current hit points drop to -10 or lower, or if he takes massive damage (see above), heÂ’s dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution to 0.

Well, when Constitution is higher than 0, then dead by definition means hit points at -10 (unless specifically caused by e.g. death effect) or failed save for massive damage. Heal spell would repair hit point loss (if timed correctly by some contingency), so Fortunate Fate too (otherwise it also wouldn't work for strong enough Fireball, as HP == -10 => you are dead). Since the target is saved from hit point damage, the rule for massive damage does not apply.

Of course you could argue that implosion should be just added to the exception list, next to disintegration - such a houserule would make sense, but it's not RAW - and I don't see why would it be RAI (collapsing sounds rather closer to fall damage than destroying the forces holding matter together).

[Lombard]

If this were an action movie we would think Redcloak shot Durkon and then cut, then back to the scene where instead redcloak shot the henchman who was poised to kill durkon

[Nail]

I think this is Redcloak attempting to get an audience with Thor. Ideally Durkon will be saved by divine intervention, and worst case Redcloak revives him himself (or gets one of his goblins to). I think Durkon's admission to speaking directly to Thor affected Redcloak more than it seems.

Also it's a shame for Durkon that DBZA rules for death aren't in play, otherwise I'm pretty sure he'd get a free ice-cream.

[dancrilis]

You are claiming that, by being around someone that had a (justifiable, at that point, but let's gloss over that) plan to force the hands of the gods into granting them basic rights by use of the snarl as a weapon of mass destruction... The goblin children deserved to die.

I believe that they were saying (and I could be wrong) that goblins are a supernatural force of evil and as such 'goblin children' is not accurate as really they are just a smaller vassal for the supernatural evil that they represent - i.e Goblins are not people they are just monsters.

This is not correct for the world of the Order of the Stick of course but it might be what the Paladins (and others) believed - which may act as partial cover for their actions of such a belief initially stems from divine teachings.

[happycrow]

Even if Durkon gets killed here, that doesn't mean he's out of the story for good. Roy had a whole adventure in the outer planes while waiting to be resurrected. And if this war comes to the point of gods fighting gods, well, I expect Durkon will be right there alongside Thor swinging his hammer.

With respect, Pendell, I think you've missed something by not taking RC's thoughtfulness and utilitarianism far enough. This is a dude who's got feet of clay, yeah. But we also routinely see him thinking several plays ahead.

Here's my call. RC kills Durkon* and reports Thor's willingness to make a deal after.

Durkon and RC only become mutual non-combatants under the conditions that sufficient worldly actors sign on to broad-scale peace-and-equality agreements that the deal can be held and cinched tight. In other words, TDO can play ball with Thor and still, right now, the Order remain RC's enemy. Thus RC needs to clear the field of immediate dangers so he has enough freedom of action to deal with a reduced Order, Xykon, and whatever else may come up for which he's unprepared.

*pending massive thread-catching up, I'm interpreting the weird effect as "Durkon didn't make saving throw."

[The_Weirdo]

I believe that they were saying (and I could be wrong) that goblins are a supernatural force of evil and as such 'goblin children' is not accurate as really they are just a smaller vassal for the supernatural evil that they represent - i.e Goblins are not people they are just monsters.

This is not correct for the world of the Order of the Stick of course but it might be what the Paladins (and others) believed - which may act as partial cover for their actions of such a belief initially stems from divine teachings.

At which point, if that's what the gods told their paladins, mass deicide is in order.

[Dion]

At which point, if that's what the gods told their paladins, mass deicide is in order.

Summon the Kraken!

[5crownik007]

Damnit RC, we were this close to success!

I'm thinking Durkon will probably live. He's died often enough and the way this comic finishes on a cliffhanger rather than an exploded imploded* Durkon is sorta setting up a one-liner or some kinda hidden Durkon Saving Device^tm.

There's nothing Durkon can offer that can't be undone by human treachery -- and while Durkon himself is honorable, Tarquin and his crew are decidedly NOT.

Really, there's nothing that anyone can offer to anyone even outside this context that can't be undone by treachery. Treachery is the default on the playing field, it's just that goblinoids had an additional resource disadvantage. With this deal, the goblinoids would have been equally positioned to deal with the treachery that's emergent through the big ol' game of civilization. Peace treaties, some allies, some enemies, natural resources and territory. Just like all the other nations.

[Breccia]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

It's not just you.

This feels a lot like the second-to-last row of Strip 913. An intentional border cutoff so we don't see the full story.

There are several nearby non-Durkon possible targets.
1) Redcloak could be taking the matter to the Dark One in person, something he recently lamented he's never done.
2) If the issue is Xykon, he could be hitting Xykon
3) or the phylactery.
4) Oona, to relay a message to the Dark One. He's been standing there the whole time.

[The MunchKING]

Whoa, wait, what about the guy who opened the hydraburger / hydrahead BBQ franchise? Near the kobold prophet's valley?

Have you SEEN his prices? Also Torturing a poor innocent Hydra just because it's not strong enough to fight back.

[RatElemental]

2. Redcloak just accepted. He just doesn't need Durkon alive to sign the deal with Thor - quite the opposite actually, Speak With Dead will suffice.

The corpse needs to be intact enough to be able to speak (so it needs to have a mouth) and to hear (ditto for ears).

But aside from that, I don't understand how interrogating Durkon's corpse is supposed to help broker a deal with Thor. Durkon's soul stays in the afterlife, speak with dead just animates the corpse and makes it spill its guts (metaphorically).

Edit to add:

There are several nearby non-Durkon possible targets.
1) Redcloak could be taking the matter to the Dark One in person, something he recently lamented he's never done.

Rich is on record saying he doesn't intend to make suicide the solution to any situation. Besides, he can cast gate, or commune, or even just bog standard plane shift if he wants to go talk to the Dark One.

2) If the issue is Xykon, he could be hitting Xykon

Undead are immune to implosion.

3) or the phylactery.

As are objects.

4) Oona, to relay a message to the Dark One. He's been standing there the whole time.

See point 1.

[The MunchKING]

The corpse needs to be intact enough to be able to speak (so it needs to have a mouth) and to hear (ditto for ears).

But aside from that, I don't understand how interrogating Durkon's corpse is supposed to help broker a deal with Thor. Durkon's soul stays in the afterlife, speak with dead just animates the corpse and makes it spill its guts (metaphorically).

RAW, yes. In OotS land it seems to talk to an actual spirit, seeing as Girard's people can reinterpret questions to nonliteral meanings, and goblin corpses can tell Xykon things that happened before the Goblin died.

[dancrilis]

The corpse needs to be intact enough to be able to speak (so it needs to have a mouth) and to hear (ditto for ears).

But aside from that, I don't understand how interrogating Durkon's corpse is supposed to help broker a deal with Thor. Durkon's soul stays in the afterlife, speak with dead just animates the corpse and makes it spill its guts (metaphorically).

As mentioned earlier if he uses Create Greater Undead he could pull the soul back and question it from a position of effective certainty - seperately if he uses Speak with Dead he could ensure that Durkon is not being dishonest in his intentions.

I don't think he is planning for either of those (although Durkon as a free willed undead with Durkon's soul in charge might be ... interesting) but as a tactic for clarity it seems reasonable.

[Jason]

It seems pretty clear that the target of the spell is Durkon, not Redcloak himself and not someone behind Durkon:
1) Redcloak points his hand at Durkon when he casts the spell. If he were casting at himself he would not need to have gestured at Durkon.
2) The spell targets one person at a time. There's no splash damage or the like from being close to a target. Durkon is visibly being distorted in the last two panels, so he is the target.
3) You could argue that the final two panels were the viewpoint of the target (whether Redcloak or someone else) and that the distortion is because their own head was being imploded, and Durkon was reacting with horror to watching someone else implode, except that it is clearly just Durkon being distorted, not the whole panel. The table and chair are unaffected by what is happening to Durkon.

[Deoloth]

I think... The Dark One might stop the spell.

Clerics have their spells granted by their gods. Thor wanted the Dark One to get the offer so he wanted someone to meet with RedCloak. I think it is possible that The Dark One is keeping a close eye on RC and might intervene if he does not agree with RC at this time. This might also lead to RC's first major interaction with his god.

[understatement]

If this were an action movie we would think Redcloak shot Durkon and then cut, then back to the scene where instead redcloak shot the henchman who was poised to kill durkon

Redcloak's expression (the one where he closes his eye) says otherwise.

I really did want the conversation to at least reach a neutral point, but I'm pretty sure it's to be interpreted that Redcloak casted the spell with 100% intent, 0% external influences (if someone was sneaking up behind Durkon, Redcloak wouldn't have turned around), and that personal baggage weighs in very heavily.

[chy03001]

Actually... With the exception of "Implosion" I think RC should stand firm. They need to hammer out the treaty first before handing over the Snarl. It's the one ace they have and if they seal up the Snarl, then the gods will see no threat from the goblins anymore and then go back to abusing them.

[FlyingSealion]

Redcloak you're killing me

You know, we give RC a lot of crap about

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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killing his brother

but in a weird way this almost feels worse to me? Both because that decision was made under pressure with the possibility of serious consequences if he chose wrong, and also because it happened in a prequel titled "start of darkness". He's in a better place now, a calmer situation, more time to think about it... Since no one burst in to interrupt, this convo really felt like Redcloak's "evolve or die" moment, and it seems he has chosen...death.

(I mean obviously for Durkon right now, but it'll kill him too in the long run)

I hope that there's some twist here and Redcloak isn't actually targeting Durkon, but I don't really buy it. It's a completely in character reaction and it wouldn't be Redcloak if he wasn't up to his armpits in the sunk cost fallacy. I'm not surprised we ended up here, just disappointed I probably would have been more shocked if he had agreed, but it's fun to hope sometimes.

Emotionally "compromised" indeed, this goblin should have gotten to therapy years ago

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think... The Dark One might stop the spell.

Clerics have their spells granted by their gods. Thor wanted the Dark One to get the offer so he wanted someone to meet with RedCloak. I think it is possible that The Dark One is keeping a close eye on RC and might intervene if he does not agree with RC at this time. This might also lead to RC's first major interaction with his god.

The magic system doesn't work like that. Redcloak was granted the spell, and he has the spell until he uses it. All TDO can do is stop offering refills.

[bravelove]

Redcloak I am begging you for just one comic to NOT make me feel intense emotions I Am Begging You

[dbgilbert]

I think Durkon was the target. I'm surprised he doesn't have Death Ward up since it's a no-brainer at his level, but narrative takes precedence so I can believe he is dying there and that's what it looks like happened.

I do think that there's good odds Redcloak saw Xykon or something. Killing Durkon and lying is the only way I can see him avoiding that complication.

But I can also believe he's just refusing the peace offering.

[RatElemental]

I think Durkon was the target. I'm surprised he doesn't have Death Ward up since it's a no-brainer at his level, but narrative takes precedence so I can believe he is dying there and that's what it looks like happened.

I do think that there's good odds Redcloak saw Xykon or something. Killing Durkon and lying is the only way I can see him avoiding that complication.

But I can also believe he's just refusing the peace offering.

Funnily enough, Implosion doesn't have the Death descriptor so Death Ward doesn't block it. That's basically one of the only reasons to actually use Implosion.

[Jack Of Rivia]

I am kind of amazed that you are reading this comic when you apparently disagree with its core message that you don’t get to judge people by race. You only get to fight someone when they are actively harming yourself or somebody else not a moment sooner.

The idea that someone has to prove to be deserving of life is nothing less than sickening.

Dude, do you read only things which you agreed 100% their core message?

[Mariele]

What?! Aww man! I'm so sad! Durkon was doing really well and he was being so nice. :( :( I'm so bummed about this. I saw this updated in the morning and waited until I was home at night with a pizza to sit and read it and the thread with (no, I don't have any more of a life on the weekends, why do you ask?) and I absolutely did not expect this. True, Durkon wasn't offering anything huge and Redcloak still thinks the Plan is a better option, but what he was offering was good: a chance to take Gobbotopia off the attack list have have future generations of goblins grow up with less bias against them. What bugs me was that Durkon bringing up the whole TDO may not survive bit could have tipped his argument.

: No, what you're offering isn't enough. What about all the discrimination we'll face in the meantime? You can't even promise the word of the Azurites, much less any other nation, to not attack us! I'd rather let The Dark One have a helping hand in making the next world than settle on these terms!
: Ach, tha Dark One won't make it ta tha next world! Thor told me tha gods rely on tha worship and dedication o' their followers, and that the Dark One dinnae have enough of either ta make it ta tha next world. He dinnae even think the Elven gods or one o' me own gods, Hel, will make it. They will na be the first gods ta not be strong enough ta make it.
: That can't be, we only lost the Eastern pantheon from the first world.
: ... Now might be tha time ta mention this isn't the second world. More like... the billionth. Thar's a whole graveyard an' everything.
: What?
: Well, na really a yard, since it's on tha Astral Plane, but ye get me drift.

Not saying it would sway Redcloak--after all, this is just Thor's word, and he doesn't trust Thor--but it would be an extra consideration.
Going to spoiler my replies to various comments throughout this thread since it's huge:

Spoiler

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There's a quote from the Discworld that I think applies nicely here: "Be generous, Sir Samuel. Truly treat all men equally. Allow [[goblins]] the right to be scheming bastards." Making the goblins Always Evil monsters that are incapable of goodness and can be killed without remorse is wrong, but making them nothing more than persecuted victims who are incapable of making their own choices is still racist, just more subtly so. Redcloak is Evil because he chooses to be Evil, exactly like Hilgya or Tarquin or Daimyo Kubota, and I think that's exactly what the Giant is trying to illustrate here.

Agreeing with this, and the general message as well.

"Oh man, who would've thought that the scorpion would sting me just as I'm swimming across the river?"

But I mean, yeah, honestly

...are we going to have to change his name to Kenny?

Laughed real hard. Mostly because I can just hear Belkar saying that line so well.

If we're going for longshot predictions where Reddy isn't completely rejecting Durkon's terms, then I'm going to say he's looking down and spotted the demon-roaches, so he's killing Durkon to keep up the appearance that he was just toying with the PCs and is still on Xykon's side, but in truth plans to resurrect Durkon to continue the negotiations later.

No one mentioned a demon roach possibility yet. I like this idea. I don't think it's that likely, but I like it!

-snip-

A well-thought out post, which I've come to expect from you. All true, but still sad.

Durkon is definetly going to live, pacing wise it doesn't make sense for him to die. Like, Rich would be cutting the strips in a way that the next one immediately just starts with Durkon getting his head blown, which would be a bit clunky tbh. For the strip to be cut the way it is, it probably has some sort of twist in the next one, also I think Durkon dying has sorta reached the point of diminishing returns at this point, like we just had a whole book that sprung out of his death and then a gag where he just dies again, to do it again would just undercut a lot of it.

Agreed completely.

If he can catch mummy's rot from a cleric of Rat, he'll have four quiddities worth of clerical death !

Ah, so that's how he defeats the Snarl. He just needs some artifact or remnant from the Eastern gods to kill him and he's good to go in a punching match with the Snarl.

So, has Implosion replaced Disintegrate as Redcloak’s signature move?

It's not his fault, V went and stole Disintegrate from him!

In fairness while evil clerics keep killing him they do always raise him after.

That's very true!

Dumb theory time: RC actually spotted Minrah behind Durkon. Don't even @ me.

I'm gonna @ you here because I laughed at how this was phrased.

-snip-

Yeah, agreed. This doesn't make sense from a "logical" POV.

Theory: Redcloak put some kind of personal "un-lifealert" spell onto Xykon's fake phylactery, and as a result knows that at some point he started secretly watching. He wants to accept, but has to make X think he's still on his side.

Wouldn't work. Durkon already blabbed Redcloak's plan.

Yes, even the children. This isn't some cultural difference issue we're talking about. The goblins were created to be evil - and they embrace their evilness. In fact, the only non-evil goblins we've ever encountered, or even heard of, were the teenagers rebelling waaaaaay back near the beginning of the story - and the one that was helping the OOTS betrayed them because his goodness was just a phase.

Woah, what? The hydra burger merchant? The various gouda sellers? The various soldiers in the hobgoblin camps (unless you're arguing all soldiers are evil which is -- yikes). Even the Giant confirmed that

Spoiler: SoD

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Right-Eye was True Neutral, and the rest of his family seemed just as "non-evil" as him, or even more so. There is also absolutely no reason to assume that the various goblin peasants were Evil, any more than you'd have reason to assume human peasants are Evil. You got some sort of anti-peasant agenda going on or something, boy?

Where in the world are you getting your information???

[brenster21]

If Durkon dies here, does Hel get his soul?

It's a death during a negotiation, not a battle

"It was a battle of wits, Durkon went unarmed to negotiate with the other side using his wits and reasoning to fight the priest, and he fell when the other side imploded him. " --Thor to Hel.

Personally I want to see the three hour documentary Thor produces to argue why it was a noble death.

[Kittenwolf]

Funnily enough, Implosion doesn't have the Death descriptor so Death Ward doesn't block it. That's basically one of the only reasons to actually use Implosion.

And frankly it's only a technicality of the rules that stops it working on corporeal Undead as well, which it *really* should.

[Rrmcklin]

Dude, do you read only things which you agreed 100% their core message?

Not directed at me, but I kind of feel like "people by default have the right to live, and shouldn't have to prove otherwise just because of traits they were born with and have no control over" is a deal breaker for most people.

Though, I've noticed rather than just outright rejecting the message, it more just seems like a lot of people argue Mr. Burlew isn't actually saying what he's clearly saying. That definitely came up a bunch with everything regarding Famlicide.

[dancrilis]

If Durkon dies here, does Hel get his soul?

It's a death during a negotiation, not a battle

She didn't get it when Hilgya killed him in a similar manner - also a cleric attempting to follow the word of their god is likely always considered honourable.