OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There are a bunch of perfectly valid reasons to use Implosion; I have no idea why anyone would fixate on it being "not the best tool for the job" as a reason for it to not be used to kill Durkon.

1) As a ninth-level spell, its save DC is higher than any other directly harmful effect that Redcloak can employ. If you're going to turn on someone, then you want to maximise your chances of utterly destroying them right away; anything with a lower DC is going to make it more likely that Durkon will be able to survive the initial attack and retaliate or escape.

No Save is inherently superior to higher saving DC on this scale.

2) It doesn't require any attack rolls and it's not restricted to melee range. Fewer moving parts than Harm or Disintegrate.

Please, Durkon's touch AC is probably below 10. A cleric of at least 17th level with even a 10 on Dex is far more likely to hit him than Durkon failing his saving throw. Besides, moving parts are irrelevant once Blasphemy immobilizes Durkon, because he is no longer... yanno... moving.

3) As a (probable) domain spell, it's a less flexible option to burn; he wouldn't have been able to convert it to a spontaneous infliction spell (though spontaneous infliction is probably less valuable than spontaneous healing).

Marginally valid, but not really a speaking point against it in the face of the possible consequences of failure. It's extra resources spend, but unless you plan on going on another dungeon dive that particular day, not one that is notable. Remember, you gain spells every day during prayer, but dead foes are dead... well, not forever, but at least until they can get a True Resurrection.

4) If Durkon has any hidden allies ready to spring into action once hostilities commence, Redcloak's got a powerful spell to squash them with.

But he already has it in reserve. In fact, if anything, this gives him more options, not less. Let's say they were hiding out. First off, they'd better be more than 40' out or (except Belkar), they just landed in the same boat. No save. At that range (outside Sneak Attack range, so Haley's damage is negligible), the only viable threat is V. Who has a notoriously bad Fort save, being an Elf (with a Con penalty) and a Wizard (with a poor Fort progression). So now is when you cast Implosion on the Wizard, finish off the mooks at your leisure on successive turns, then return to dealing with the still paralyzed Cleric you were about to gloat over at your leisure.

The only real argument against using Implosion is that the target doesn't suffer any adverse consequences if they make their save - though the damage from a successful save against Disintegrate (5d6) or Destruction (10d6) is going to be unremarkable for an adventurer of Durkon's level, anyway.

Uhh... Blasphemy leaves him unable to do anything for minutes. No saving throw permitted. You can do whatever you like with him in the meantime, and Disintegrate the corpse. Guaranteed kill. As opposed to the coin-flip saving throw of Implosion which leaves a now potentially hostile Cleric free to either disengage or counterattack. We aren't talking Implosion vs Disintegrate or Destruction. We're talking Implosion vs Blasphemy, then follow up with something else that leaves no trace. It's burning several spell slots for a guaranteed kill vs burning one higher level spell slot for a risky kill that leaves your enemy able to immediately respond.

[Lethologica]

Uhh... Blasphemy leaves him unable to do anything for minutes. No saving throw permitted. You can do whatever you like with him in the meantime, and Disintegrate the corpse. Guaranteed kill. As opposed to the coin-flip saving throw of Implosion which leaves a now potentially hostile Cleric free to either disengage or counterattack. We aren't talking Implosion vs Disintegrate or Destruction. We're talking Implosion vs Blasphemy, then follow up with something else that leaves no trace. It's burning several spell slots for a guaranteed kill vs burning one higher level spell slot for a risky kill that leaves your enemy able to immediately respond.

C&LG has Durkon at 13 and Redcloak at 17+. Non-trivial chance Durkon is not 5 levels below Redcloak. Also, is Redcloak aware of Durkon's level?

[dancrilis]

We're talking Implosion vs Blasphemy, then follow up with something else that leaves no trace. It's burning several spell slots for a guaranteed kill vs burning one higher level spell slot for a risky kill that leaves your enemy able to immediately respond.

Redcloak doesn't know Durkon's level, but he can assume a fairly high level cleric.
So assuming level 15 (or even purchased access to an 8th level spell) that gives Durkon access to Greater Spell Immunity with Blasphemy being specified before a meeting with a high level evil cleric a fair precaution - Implosion bypasses that, Redcloak would know this.

[Kereea]

Redcloak isn't really the improvising kind... he's also not the giving up kind.

On the other hand, killing Durkon, the only witness to the conversation, conveniently puts an end to his self-doubts, and allows him to focus on accomplishing his life's work, with the bonus of weakening the opposing party his is now aware of.

Pretty much. Redcloak's whole character arc is about his biggest flaw being his inability to give up on the Sunk Cost Fallacy regarding The Plan. It would be weird for a single talk with Durkon to change that. In addition, Durkon's kind of working from the idea that Redcloak can get The Dark One to agree to this when earlier in the conversation Redcloak revealed that The Dark One communicates MUCH less directly with him than Durkon and Thor were expecting for a High Priest.

Like, we really know very little about how much The Dark One might react to this plan. Right Eye claimed he cared more about his revenge than his people. His only known direct message to Redcloak is "Don't screw this up. No pressure though." Frankly the main chip they have against him his that he won't survive resetting the universe. And since we know so little about him he won't know how he'll react to that.

[morikahn]

I haven't read all 22 pages of responses to this thread, but has anyone brought up the idea that maybe Durkon and Thor are wrong about what Redcloak and the Dark One are trying to do with the Snarl? If I remember right, Thor was the one that told Durkon what the goblins' plan supposedly is. When Durkon confronted Red Cloak about it, Red Cloak did not confirm that their plan was in fact to use the Snarl to threaten the gods. That is probably what Xykon intends to do, but Redcloak may have other ideas. There may be some key facts that are being withheld. Actually, we know there is something going on with the Snarl the audience (and the Gods) don't know about.

Redcloak may be playing an altogether different game and Durkon's proposal just doesn't fit into it. The whole conversation started out with Redcloak trying to determine what Durkon and his people knew and ended with Redcloak realizing Durkon was genuinely trying to help. It would explain the reluctance as he cast Implosion. He did appreciate the gesture but the stakes were much higher than Durkon could guess.

[Samoja1]

I haven't read all 22 pages of responses to this thread, but has anyone brought up the idea that maybe Durkon and Thor are wrong about what Redcloak and the Dark One are trying to do with the Snarl? If I remember right, Thor was the one that told Durkon what the goblins' plan supposedly is. When Durkon confronted Red Cloak about it, Red Cloak did not confirm that their plan was in fact to use the Snarl to threaten the gods. That is probably what Xykon intends to do, but Redcloak may have other ideas. There may be some key facts that are being withheld. Actually, we know there is something going on with the Snarl the audience (and the Gods) don't know about.

Redcloak may be playing an altogether different game and Durkon's proposal just doesn't fit into it. The whole conversation started out with Redcloak trying to determine what Durkon and his people knew and ended with Redcloak realizing Durkon was genuinely trying to help. It would explain the reluctance as he cast Implosion. He did appreciate the gesture but the stakes were much higher than Durkon could guess.

We know that is their plan because of SoD, of course you can't exactly blame people for not knowing key information that is behind a paywall, but in short RC confirms in SoD that is exactly what their plan is.

[Fyraltari]

He also explained it to Tuskiko before killing her. Something the Giant likely included precisely so that this info wouldn’t be behind a paywall.

[morikahn]

We know that is their plan because of SoD, of course you can't exactly blame people for not knowing key information that is behind a paywall, but in short RC confirms in SoD that is exactly what their plan is.

I read Start of Darkness. It was a while back.. but if I remember it mostly revolves around the creation of Xykon and some early motivation for Redcloak. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the writer specified that the extra comics would not contain information that was necessary to follow the main plot of the online comic.

[morikahn]

He also explained it to Tuskiko before killing her. Something the Giant likely included precisely so that this info wouldn’t be behind a paywall.

I'll have to find that page. God, its been so long.. sometimes its hard to follow the plot line.

[Samoja1]

I read Start of Darkness. It was a while back.. but if I remember it mostly revolves around the creation of Xykon and some early motivation for Redcloak. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the writer specified that the extra comics would not contain information that was necessary to follow the main plot of the online comic.

He explains the whole thing, in meticulous detail, to Xykon of all people.

[dancrilis]

I'll have to find that page.

Panel 9, 10, 11 explain what the ritual does (or what Redcloak says/thinks it does).

[ebarde]

What if Redcloak killed Durkon so he would go to the afterlife, and through speak with the dead be able to talk directly to Thor? I doubt this is the case, but it is kinda fun. You could even make a joke about how Durkon just keeps getting raised by evil clerics that killed him idk

[danielxcutter]

I probably wasn’t around when it came up, but back when Nale killed Malack people were apparently complaining how Malack totally should have prepared for it and he should have done something else and I think that’s exactly what’s going on when people are trying to argue that Implosion was a Bad Idea^TM and therefore it can’t be have been for Durkon. Sometimes you don’t have the specific optimal option prepared today. Heck, maybe that was the optimal domain slot, ‘cause I’m pretty sure the Law domain 9th level spell is Summon Monster IX(lawful only).

[Gray Mage]

Implosion is probably the best spell to get Durkon anyway. Durkon's only bad save is Reflex with has no save or die spells for Clerics (if I remember correctly). Anything else has either a lower DC, more fail points (attack/damage rolls) or uncertainty (RC has no guarantee that there's a 5 level gap for Blasphemy and the range makes it not so subtle anyway).

A failed Disintegrate save not only isn't an instakill, but also is less likely than a failed Implosion save anyway.

[Dion]

I just realized that Durkon keeps getting killed by evil Clerics.

Durkon: I’ve just met an evil cleric of a death god! I’m sure we can be friends, because we’re both clerics. Oh No... vampirism!. Who could have predicted that?

Durkon (a week later): Look! Another evil cleric, this time of a fire god. I’m sure this friendship will work out, because we’re both clerics. Oh no... Fire! Who could have predicted that?

Durkon (two days later): Hello, evil cleric of an insane god called “The Dark One”. Would like to hang out and be buddies? We’re both clerics, so I feel safe being unarmed.

[Yirggzmb]

I just realized that Durkon keeps getting killed by evil Clerics.

Durkon: I’ve just met an evil cleric of a death god! I’m sure we can be friends, because we’re both clerics. Oh No... vampirism!. Who could have predicted that?

Durkon (a week later): Look! Another evil cleric, this time of a fire god. I’m sure this friendship will work out, because we’re both clerics. Oh no... Fire! Who could have predicted that?

Durkon (two days later): Hello, evil cleric of an insane god called “The Dark One”. Would like to hang out and be buddies? We’re both clerics, so I feel safe being unarmed.

*snort of laughter*

At least with the cleric of Loki, they'd previously had friendly relations (err, extremely friendly), even if it ended sadly, so he can maybe be excused on this one.

[Squire Doodad]

*snort of laughter*

At least with the cleric of Loki, they'd previously had friendly relations (err, extremely friendly), even if it ended sadly, so he can maybe be excused on this one.

That said, jumping to a marriage proposal to someone you haven't seen in 2 years might be a bit much...

[TheNecrocomicon]

Just a correction here: spell preparation at dusk is not part and parcel of being an evil cleric.

The High Priest of Hel prepared his spells at dusk, but that's got nothing to do with Redcloak - in fact, Redcloak's first appearance in this location had him just finishing up with refreshing his spells in broad daylight! Given the action is set at the north pole, there's also no reliable way to tell what time of day it is unless we've got a good indicator of the time of year. If it's midsummer then it'll be light all day long!

A Cleric will always be able to prepare at least two spells of a spell level they have access to, since they're always granted a domain spell along with their normal, level-scaled allotment. So even if Redcloak is 17th level and doesn't have high enough wisdom to get any bonus 9th-level spells, he's got capacity for one more 9th-level spell on top of the Implosion he just cast.

Point taken from you and others regarding the number of 9th level spells available.

But we do have an indication: at the end of #1039, Xykon did specify "tonight", so most likely Redcloak does prepare spells at dusk, or at least he currently does.

[Gopher]

Has anyone raised the possibility that Redcloak cast the spell on himself, to have a chance to confer with The Dark One directly?

[The MunchKING]

Has anyone raised the possibility that Redcloak cast the spell on himself, to have a chance to confer with The Dark One directly?

Loads of people, it's always followed by "Gate would be much simpler/more effective" and "Implosion doesn't have splash effects that would distort Durkon" posts.

[dancrilis]

Has anyone raised the possibility that Redcloak cast the spell on himself, to have a chance to confer with The Dark One directly?

Yes they have, despite the fact that such a meeting could be done via, Gate or Plane Shift - or Commune, despite the fact that merely going to the afterlife is no guarantee of meeting a deity, despite the fact that there is no one around would might raise him - and certainly not in short order, despite the fact that it would leave the cloak completely unprotected and so enable it to be stolen or destroyed potentially ruining the overall plan if the Dark One rejected the offer ... they have raised the possibility regardless.

I don't see it myself.

[Gopher]

Fair enough.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Yes they have, despite the fact that such a meeting could be done via, Gate or Plane Shift - or Commune, despite the fact that merely going to the afterlife is no guarantee of meeting a deity, despite the fact that there is no one around would might raise him - and certainly not in short order, despite the fact that it would leave the cloak completely unprotected and so enable it to be stolen or destroyed potentially ruining the overall plan if the Dark One rejected the offer ... they have raised the possibility regardless.

I don't see it myself.

There's also the simpler fact that those are all much less painful ways of voluntarily meeting one's patron deity that don't involve a horrible, messy death in the process. And that spend lower level spell slots to do so and are thus more efficient from that standpoint too.

[dancrilis]

There's also the simpler fact that those are all much less painful ways of voluntarily meeting one's patron deity that don't involve a horrible, messy death in the process. And that spend lower level spell slots to do so and are thus more efficient from that standpoint too.

... you mean the first items I listed or something else?
For clarity the spells listed were not intended to be an exhaustive list of possibilities.

[KorvinStarmast]

And Murphy's Law being what it is, whatever the IFCC are plotting is likely going to hit at the absolute worst possible time (for the protagonists anyways).

Yeah.

Actually, we know there is something going on with the Snarl the audience (and the Gods) don't know about.

And TDO doesn't know, and Reddie doesn't know.

He did appreciate the gesture but the stakes were much higher than Durkon could guess.

Given that TDO won't even talk to an evil god, Loki, TDO is going to be hard to negotiate/deal with, isn't he? There is an allusion to Tiamat being up to her own agenda, so maybe that will burble up during the course of book VII.

What if Redcloak killed Durkon so he would go to the afterlife, and through speak with the dead be able to talk directly to Thor?

That would be a handy use of D&D mechanics, as well as nice cover if Xykon happens by and sees a dead, rather than alive, dwarf near Redcloak.

Sometimes you don’t have the specific optimal option prepared today.

You fight the dragon with the party you have, not the party you wish you had.

That said, jumping to a marriage proposal to someone you haven't seen in 2 years might be a bit much...

Hilgya most emphatically agreed.

[bunsen_h]

Re: all of the suggestions that Redcloak should have used Blasphemy / etc. instead of Implosion, keep in mind that he didn't plan for this meeting. He's limited to the spells that he had prepared for a dungeon crawl.

[Doug Lampert]

Re: all of the suggestions that Redcloak should have used Blasphemy / etc. instead of Implosion, keep in mind that he didn't plan for this meeting. He's limited to the spells that he had prepared for a dungeon crawl.

Even if he has it prepared (likely, RC gets a lot of level 7 spells). The big problem with Blasphemy is that RC has no idea what the level difference is. He doesn't know Durkon's level, and even if he did, if RC is level 17, then 17-13=4, which means he just spent his surprise round to daze Durkon and weaken him for a brief period.

Weakened only matters if Durkon plans to pull out a weapon and fight (it does absolutely NOTHING to stop or slow down spells from Durkon). So blasphemy from RC would cost Durkon one action at the cost of costing RC 1 action and a level 7 slot.

I'm just not seeing the win there.

[Gurgeh]

Blasphemy also seems like a really bad choice for the dungeon crawls given that Greyview is probably True Neutral and the MitD is almost definitely non-evil (and Oona's alignment is also uncertain). Wouldn't be very helpful to incapacitate your allies mid-fight with your lockdown spell.

Even if we're supposed to agree that it's a foolproof option that he's got ready to cast, the argument seems to boil down to "Redcloak isn't doing precisely what a powergaming D&D player would do in this situation if they wanted Durkon dead, ergo he can't be trying to kill Durkon and the Implosion is clearly intended for something else!" - which really doesn't hold much water with me.

[Worldsong]

Blasphemy also seems like a really bad choice for the dungeon crawls given that Greyview is probably True Neutral and the MitD is almost definitely non-evil (and Oona's alignment is also uncertain). Wouldn't be very helpful to incapacitate your allies mid-fight with your lockdown spell.

Even if we're supposed to agree that it's a foolproof option that he's prepared, the argument seems to boil down to "Redcloak isn't doing precisely what a powergaming D&D player do in this situation if they wanted Durkon dead, ergo he can't be trying to kill Durkon and the Implosion is clearly intended for something else!" - which really doesn't hold much water with me.

It seems like another example for me that people need to be reminded that characters in stories are also imperfect and aren't always going to make the right decision, and that that doesn't immediately mean that they're dumb or a lost cause because if making a couple of mistakes meant you were a lost cause pretty much every person alive would be a lost cause.

[The MunchKING]

Re: all of the suggestions that Redcloak should have used Blasphemy / etc. instead of Implosion, keep in mind that he didn't plan for this meeting. He's limited to the spells that he had prepared for a dungeon crawl.

Also the creatures he was expecting to find are higher power-level than him, and probably non-good. Like Neutral animals and what-not. So Blasphemy's power would reduced even further.