OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

Going to have to start punching that frequent resurrections card.

Does he get bonus miles / points if it's against a new quiddity/essence?

Spoiler

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The Dark One himself was slain in a parley by treacherous humans. What you do, comes back to you.

Nice reach back. But Durkon's a dwarf.

There's nothing Durkon can offer that can't be undone by human treachery -- and while Durkon himself is honorable, Tarquin and his crew are decidedly NOT.

Are you using Tarquin as an example, or are you using Tarquin because he has some further role in this story? Confusing ref there.

We'll see how this all plays out, but Durkon's first mistake was not negotiating from a position of strength. For a cleric, he doesn't really seem to have much of a wisdom score.

Hmm, I was under the impression that diplomacy and negotiation were Charisma based.

"Made my saving throw" would be a nice callback to RC's fight with the High Priest of the Twelve Gods though :)

Yeah, nice reach back if it arises in the next strip.

Sadly, Redcloak failing to listen to reason and attacking Durkon is exactly what I expected.

I was hoping it would not come to this, but it is consistent with RC's facial expression in panel 20. I have a recollection of seeing him make that same face around the time of

Spoiler: SoD

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his brother's death.

[ebarde]

Durkon is definetly going to live, pacing wise it doesn't make sense for him to die. Like, Rich would be cutting the strips in a way that the next one immediately just starts with Durkon getting his head blown, which would be a bit clunky tbh. For the strip to be cut the way it is, it probably has some sort of twist in the next one, also I think Durkon dying has sorta reached the point of diminishing returns at this point, like we just had a whole book that sprung out of his death and then a gag where he just dies again, to do it again would just undercut a lot of it.

[Ron Miel]

If durkon made the save throw, the spell effect will not manifest ( as show in 456 ) .

Several art upgrades ago. And they've got a bigger special effects budget now.

[Ghosty]

Im here to broke your hope:

If durkon made the save throw, the spell effect will not manifest ( as show in 456 ) .

Saving Throw Negates just means there's no effect on Durkon if he saves. It doesn't necessarily mean nothing happens to Durkon. Though the Giant certainly played it that way for laughs in the past, I don't think he's bound then to show that Durkon didn't even notice the spell hitting him. Just that it would have no lasting effect if Durkon saved, so no scratches on the armor or the like.

[Fyraltari]

A would necessitate another goblin in the North Pole; that or the MitD to be a goblinoid.

Maybe, maybe not. There is plenty of room for the sealing of the Rifts to not happen in the North Pole, there might be other goblins going to the pole right now we don’t know about (Redcloak’s niece, Jirix) and (admittedly unlikely) Oona’s shaman may have enough oomph to pull it off.

B would undermine a fair bit of the seeming point of this story, not to mention how gods are semi-sorta shaped by belief and all goblins believe TDO to be operating in their interest.

B1 certainly wouldn’t. I’m not sure B2 would either, for one it’s not impossible for people to both be oppressed and have that opression be used by selfish individuals for their own gains under the pretenses of « fighting the good fight » and for two I am not sure the average goblin believes tDO puts the interest of goblinkind above, say, revenge.

C is far more possible, given how Rich operates.

I mean that’s just the thing, right?

D I did tell you to come to the dark side because we have salgadinhos (amazing Brazilian finger foods).

I think you were talking to someone else.

Im here to broke your hope:

If durkon made the save throw, the spell effect will not manifest ( as show in 456 ) .

But does failing the save always mean death?

[Crœsos]

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean Durkon's dead yet. SRD Implosion tells us that a saving throw vs. fortitude will negate the spell, and Durkon has high constitution. He resisted Malack's poison attack without trouble, so I think he has a good chance of resisting implosion as well.

We may be in for another ultimate duel between clerics.

[TRH]

Poison is a 4th level spell that Dwarves have a +2 racial bonus against. Implosion is a 9th level spell from a cleric whose Wisdom may well be higher than Malack's. Making the save is going to be significantly harder. He probably will, though, if only because there's nobody left to Raise him if he fails. And I wouldn't read too much into the 456 fight, since that was essentially a comedy involving a nameless NPC cleric. This is a serious moment, and it would be more dramatic for Durkon to start caving in on himself, only to reverse the effect by drawing on his inner strength, you know?

[Fyraltari]

So, has Implosion replaced Disintegrate as Redcloak’s signature move?

[Cazero]

Does he get bonus miles / points if it's against a new quiddity/essence?

If he can catch mummy's rot from a cleric of Rat, he'll have four quiddities worth of clerical death !

[KorvinStarmast]

Several art upgrades ago. And they've got a bigger special effects budget now.

that got a RL laugh out of me

Implosion is a 9th level spell from a cleric whose Wisdom may well be higher than Malack's.

While I am sure he has a high Wisdom, I was always under the impression that Redcloak's highest stat was Int, though I guess he'd put points in Wis as he leveled up. Not sure why I have that impression.

[Ghosty]

Poison is a 4th level spell that Dwarves have a +2 racial bonus against. Implosion is a 9th level spell from a cleric whose Wisdom may well be higher than Malack's. Making the save is going to be significantly harder.

I'm probably wrong but, don't Dwarves get a +2 save vs Poison, as well as a +2 save vs. Spells and spell like effects? So Durkon would get +4 if he were to be hit with a Poison spell, vs say getting hit with on of those Invisible Stranger darts.

Second, isn't this just a straight Fortitude save, without any consideration towards caster's level or Wisdom?

[Dausuul]

But does failing the save always mean death?

Yes. The spell is very specific: A creature that fails the save "collapses in on itself, killing it."

[archaeo]

I’m looking forward to how Burlew writes his way out of this situation, where he’s created an incredibly sympathetic backstory for an “Always Evil” species and made equality the central thing they’re fighting for but also set it up so that the only way they’ll get it is through an Actually Evil act. I’ve been expecting Redcloak to have a Redemption Equals Death kind of ending, but man, that possibility is looking awfully remote. Maybe the real twist is that Redcloak was the Big Bad all along?

It’s very hard to avoid discussing verboten “real-world issues” when the story maps to them so neatly—but I have enough faith in the storytelling here to believe that, as mentioned upthread, Goblinkind Isn’t Redcloak. Hard to see how this doesn’t end with some very clear political moral though, esp. given the content in O-Chul’s backstory.

I honestly think if I hadn’t read that (well worth the money, everybody!), I might be a little more wary of this plot development, but I have a high enough opinion of Burlew’s abilities as an empathic and thoughtful storyteller that I’m very excited to see how this all gets tied together in the end.

[dancrilis]

He probably will, though, if only because there's nobody left to Raise him if he fails.

In fairness while evil clerics keep killing him they do always raise him after.

[TRH]

I'm probably wrong but, don't Dwarves get a +2 save vs Poison, as well as a +2 save vs. Spells and spell like effects? So Durkon would get +4 if he were to be hit with a Poison spell, vs say getting hit with on of those Invisible Stranger darts.

Second, isn't this just a straight Fortitude save, without any consideration towards caster's level or Wisdom?

+4 against the Poison spell vs +2 against Implosion, is my point. And the DC of the save does scale with the caster's wisdom (or other casting stat), as well as the spell level. Not the caster level, thankfully.

[warmachine]

It was a good attempt by Durkon but it was never going to happen. Even if he could get Hinjo to agree to giving up Azure City, the rest of the Azure City nobility would threaten a coup just for suggesting the idea. They're cutthroat at the best of times. Giving up their dreams of retaking the home would unite them against Hinjo.

[MaverickMopete]

Redcloak might well have thought Durkon's plan was the best for everyone concerned, and especially the best for the goblinoids. Except that he and the world still have Xykon to deal with. RC is in no position to dictate terms to Xykon, who has put everything on getting the plan as he knows it accomplished. RC knows he can't get around Xykon, so the great dream of peace and prosperity for his people has to be put aside, just as he did on a much smaller scale with his brother in SOD.

It's worse than that. Someone earlier in this thread was absolutely correct when they stated that Redcloak is indeed an incarnation of the sunk cost fallacy.

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Redcloak: Throw away lives? How dare you?! Every goblin that has died since I've been high priest has been to further the Plan! Their deaths were a necessary sacrifice! They were not my fault!

Right-Eye: Wait... that's it, isn't it? It's all about whose fault it is... If I kill Xykon now, then it was all a waste. You ordered goblins to their deaths believing in the Plan--so if we abandon it now, then you were wrong. You let them die for nothing. You're willing to throw good lives after bad so that you don't have to admit that we were wrong to work with Xykon in the first place, much less help him cheat death.

Redcloak: Look, it's too late to turn back from the Plan! We made our deal with the devil years ago, now we just have to ride it out to the end.

Redcloak is so far down the slippery slope at this point he's almost hit the bottom. Killing a deity's ambassador is just the final step.

[Zhorn]

Love this... my mind is reeling at that end strip...

I think it's a case of Red Cloak has not made contact with his god directly, he can't just 'talk' to the Dark One to present this plan.
If he cannot get the Dark One on board, then Red Cloak agreeing won't achieve anything, and him abandoning the current plan is just ensuring the destruction of goblin kind.
The original plan for him is now a longshot, almost doomed to fail... but it's still a chance.
He wants to take up Durkon's proposal, but feels it won't work out due to lack of buy in / communication from the Dark One.
His current mission is his only hope as far as he sees it.

but hey, that's just a theory...

[Ironsmith]

1210, Panel 1:

V: "Counterspell."

[Doug Lampert]

I think it interesting that Durkon realizes that he made a mistake with Malack, and that he could should not have attacked because Malack was a vampire.
It is great to see him try to move past lawful stupid, just as he is trying to move past being passive.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working out for him again...

Do you have a link to whatever comic Durkon attacked Malack in? Because in the comic on this site, Malack attacked Durkon while Durkon was still not fighting.

I’m looking forward to how Burlew writes his way out of this situation, where he’s created an incredibly sympathetic backstory for an “Always Evil” species and made equality the central thing they’re fighting for but also set it up so that the only way they’ll get it is through an Actually Evil act. I’ve been expecting Redcloak to have a Redemption Equals Death kind of ending, but man, that possibility is looking awfully remote. Maybe the real twist is that Redcloak was the Big Bad all along?

3.x is the only edition to use frequency terms with racial alignments.

Goblins in 3.0 and 3.5 are not "Always Evil", they are a "usually" race.

[neothoron]

My expectation when the negotiations began was that the talks would be interrupted by Roy, and RC would misunderstand these talks as a trap.

Instead, I really appreciate that Durkon made the gesture of trying to negotiate in good faith, was successful in communicating his message and made a reasonable offer for Gobbotopia.

I appreciate that RC had the time to think about the offer, and chose to reject it without any external pressure, resulting in possibly his most significant character moment since Start of Darkness.

So, negotiations ended. Now on to Durkon’s retreat, and it goes on. There is no way that Durkon will die - if that was the plan, Durkon dying on that last panel would have been a much better cliffhanger.

[Fyraltari]

Yes. The spell is very specific: A creature that fails the save "collapses in on itself, killing it."

Thor dang it!

[Emanick]

It was a good attempt by Durkon but it was never going to happen. Even if he could get Hinjo to agree to giving up Azure City, the rest of the Azure City nobility would threaten a coup just for suggesting the idea. They're cutthroat at the best of times. Giving up their dreams of retaking the home would unite them against Hinjo.

That might be true in a vacuum, but I imagine most of the nobles are political realists who understand that they have no real hope of retaking Azure City at this point. Getting thousands of Azurites back, on the other hand, would immediately strengthen their nation and give them more workers, shoring up the nobles’ position and significantly enlarging their shrunken population.

A formal peace agreement doesn’t physically prevent them from retaking the homeland later, and the repopulation of the Azurite nation with thousands of refugees would be a politically popular move that should, in principle, make both the common people and the nobility pleased (the underclass will grow, strengthening the political position of the upper class, and no doubt most of the common people have loved ones who are currently in captivity). Agreeing to the terms Durkon suggests - in a hypothetical world where that agreement actually gets made, of course - actually strikes me as a fairly shrewd political move, even for a leader with no long-term interest in peace with Gobbotopia.

[locksmith of lo]

i am pretty sure durkon learned from his last experience with regotiating with a cleric, since he mentions it. he is probably prepared for exactly such an eventuality.

[Etilworg]

Rich would be cutting the strips in a way that the next one immediately just starts with Durkon getting his head blown, which would be a bit clunky tbh.

He can save the gore, this can be the first panel:

I think Redcloak just had his final Kick The Dog moment.

And it appears that Durkon will be telling Thor very quickly, "Nae, tha didn'a work."

[TRH]

That might be true in a vacuum, but I imagine most of the nobles are political realists who understand that they have no real hope of retaking Azure City at this point. Getting thousands of Azurites back, on the other hand, would immediately strengthen their nation and give them more workers, shoring up the nobles’ position and significantly enlarging their shrunken population.

A formal peace agreement doesn’t physically prevent them from retaking the homeland later, and the repopulation of the Azurite nation with thousands of refugees would be a politically popular move that should, in principle, make both the common people and the nobility pleased (the underclass will grow, strengthening the political position of the upper class, and no doubt most of the common people have loved ones who are currently in captivity). Agreeing to the terms Durkon suggests - in a hypothetical world where that agreement actually gets made, of course - actually strikes me as a fairly shrewd political move, even for a leader with no long-term interest in peace with Gobbotopia.

On the other hand, Kubota was apparently supposed to be one of the smartest Azurite nobles, and he seemed to assume he could retake the city as an afterthought once he'd overthrown Hinjo, so I'm not sure they actually appreciate just how difficult that would really be.

[enh]

My theory before reading the spell description was that Redcloak has cast Implosion on something sneaking up behind Durkon, and we're just seeing a sort of "splash" effect.

The d20 SRD description makes it clear that the spell targets a creature, however, not an area. I suppose that doesn't preclude a visual splash effect, but in #826 we see him use it without any.

Hmm.

[Segev]

Durkon is definetly going to live, pacing wise it doesn't make sense for him to die. Like, Rich would be cutting the strips in a way that the next one immediately just starts with Durkon getting his head blown, which would be a bit clunky tbh. For the strip to be cut the way it is, it probably has some sort of twist in the next one, also I think Durkon dying has sorta reached the point of diminishing returns at this point, like we just had a whole book that sprung out of his death and then a gag where he just dies again, to do it again would just undercut a lot of it.

I agree: the way this cliffhanger is cut away from, it's setting up for the implosion to fail. If Durkon'd popped in the last panel, I'd have assumed there was a plan to follow him to an afterlife-related destination - perhaps for negotiation with the Dark One himself - but it seems odd to cut away in the midst of the effect if it's going to end just like it would with any other casting.

[johnbragg]

I don't know 3.5e well enough for details, but I think there's a hint in panel 1 of strip 1206: {Italics Mine}

I think that's an oblique reference to something magical ... I am hoping some 3.5 expert folks can parse that.

I....think it's a reference to John Mulaney's standup routine. As an elementary school student, Mulaney's class would be visited every year by a police detective who gave what 2020 would consider horribly age-inappropriate facts and statistics about kidnapping survival rates. Namely that there was a good chance, if you were kidnapped, of recovering you alive from the "primary location," but you were pretty much dead meat if the kidnapper was able to get you to his more secure "secondary location."

So, to this day, John Mulaney (says he) will not go to two places in one night.

Put in less fourth-wall-breaking terms, Durkon would be a fool to follow Redcloak to a location of Redcloak's choosing. (Prepared with traps, magically boosted defenses, allies, etc.)

[pendell]

Even if Durkon gets killed here, that doesn't mean he's out of the story for good. Roy had a whole adventure in the outer planes while waiting to be resurrected. And if this war comes to the point of gods fighting gods, well, I expect Durkon will be right there alongside Thor swinging his hammer.

If Durkon DOES get killed here, I suspect it will be to only set up his later return More Powerful Than We Can Possibly Imagine.

But, yeah. The entire reason Minrah is in the strip is to backfill for Durkon when he's unavailable. Which means Durkon has to be unable to participate in the adventure for an extended period, either because he's dead or captive.

Would be delighted to be proven wrong.

Respectfully,

Brian P.