to slay a dragon

[larnman2]

I feel nostalgic. What would be a good way to take down a dragon?

[BardicDuelist]

Hit it really hard with a sword?

Really though, what kind of dragon? as different stragies can apply to each of the different flavors.

[13_CBS]

Maximized Shivering Touch combined with something that extends your touch range.

1 shotting dragons FTW!

Of course, the hard part is getting close enough to the dragon to pull that off. Chances are that said dragon is as smart as your wizard, and far longer lived.

[Temp]

Since you're not really restricting things, Shivering Touch averages 10.5 Dex damage, no save. Dragons have 10 Dex. See where this is going?




Edit: Ninja-ed.

[13_CBS]

Since you're not really restricting things, Shivering Touch averages 10.5 Dex damage, no save. Dragons have 10 Dex. See where this is going?

And maximize it for a guarantee.

[larnman2]

It's the one place where my 400 goblin methods does not work.

Basically saying, what's the most efficient/creative way you can think of?

[TheOtherMC]

Ok, for years Ive been PRETENDING to understand the shivering touch spam to fit in with the "cool kids." What exactly are the implications of having 0 Dex and how would that stop a dragon exactly?

[Temp]

Creative would be using your Skill Focus-Profession (Psychologist) to get the Dragon to fall into a horrific depression and to kill himself in shame and sorrow.

Anything with Shivering Touch would be the most efficient, especially with any sort of reach (Reach spell Metamagic, Archmage dip, Spectral Hand spell...)

Ok, for years Ive been PRETENDING to understand the shivering touch spam to fit in with the "cool kids." What exactly are the implications of having 0 Dex and how would that stop a dragon exactly?

0 Dex means the Dragon's paralyzed until the ability damage heals.

[Enzario]

In mother country, Dragon 1-shots you!

Back on topic, yeah, just have the meat distract it for long enough for the wizard to land a save-or-suck, save-or-die, or save-or-lose, then have the rogue flank and beat the crap out of it (make sure to take down the AC a bit if you can, 46 can be hard to hit; also, take down its offensive power, a dragon's full attack is its most deadly weapon, and it can easily take a PC down in 1 turn... you know what? just take down everything you possibly can). Apply walking band-aid as needed (that's the cleric, if you don't know). Take treasure, rinse, repeat! What am I forgetting? Oh, yes...

?????

Profit!

[TheOtherMC]

Creative would be using your Skill Focus-Profession (Psychologist) into getting the Dragon to fall into a horrific depression and to kill himself in shame and sorrow.

Ive done this in Cthulhu MANY MANY times with my knife-throwing psychologost!!! So much fun! With only 70 in psychoanalysis, my ST houseruled i could pull a Kavorkian on a 14%. I actually made it against a group of deep ones.

[Thinker]

Ok, for years Ive been PRETENDING to understand the shivering touch spam to fit in with the "cool kids." What exactly are the implications of having 0 Dex and how would that stop a dragon exactly?

Your answer:

Link. The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.

[BardicDuelist]

Ironically, the way to one-shot a dragon using shivering touch does not work on the weakest type of dragon (white).

[13_CBS]

The other, core-only solution, IIRC, is using a Time stop and as many delayed-blast-fireballs as possible during the time stop.

[Gamebird]

I feel nostalgic. What would be a good way to take down a dragon?

Attack it with a group of PCs. Assuming the DM is playing within the rules, slaying the dragon will only cost you 25% of your party's resources and is unlikely to kill anyone. Even with dragons being considerably "overpowered" for their CR, they're still well within a party's ability to take down as the day's only encounter.

[Green Bean]

Ironically, the way to one-shot a dragon using shivering touch does not work on the weakest type of dragon (white).

Hmm. Can you use Energy Substitution on Shivering Touch?

[Dausuul]

Attack it with a group of PCs. Assuming the DM is playing within the rules, slaying the dragon will only cost you 25% of your party's resources and is unlikely to kill anyone. Even with dragons being considerably "overpowered" for their CR, they're still well within a party's ability to take down as the day's only encounter.

You have such touching faith in DMs giving out only level-appropriate encounters. There is nothing anywhere in the rules that says a DM is required to stick to that. And frankly, if I'm putting my PCs up against a dragon, I want it to be the fight of their lives. It's going to be at least 2 CRs above the party level, and quite possibly 3 or even 4, depending on how optimized the PCs are. Low enough that they can win... but it'll put them through a meatgrinder first.

(Moreover, if the PCs are seeking out the dragon on their own initiative rather than as part of the plot, all bets are off. If I've put a great red wyrm in the Mountain of Doom, and the PCs decide to try and tackle the thing at level 10, it's not going to suddenly shrink down to juvenile status just for them. I'll try to make sure they have a chance to realize what they're about to do, but if they go ahead anyway, so be it.)

The other, core-only solution, IIRC, is using a Time stop and as many delayed-blast-fireballs as possible during the time stop.

Or cast gate. A solar will polish off all but the most powerful dragons, and it'll give even them a run for their money.

On a more realistic level, and assuming you aren't allowed shivering touch-style cheese... do not close to melee. Let it close with you, then hit it and back off. (If it doesn't close with you, that's what you've got a bow for. You do have a bow, right?) You do not, repeat not, want to trade full attacks. If you have to eat an AoO to get out of the dragon's reach, do so; it's better than eating a full attack next round. Buff up with protection from energy before the fight; this will neutralize the first couple of breath weapons. If possible, tackle the dragon in a confined space so it can't fly away if you start to gain the advantage--but not too confined, lest it pin you down (see the first point).

For arcane casters, the dragon has a lousy touch AC, so throw a lot of debuff-o-rays at it, preferably ones that don't allow a save. Enervation is particularly good for softening up its saving throws, and ray of enfeeblement (ideally Quickened and/or Empowered) for taking the edge off its melee attacks. Be careful it doesn't manage to slip past the frantically dodging fighter and nail you in the meantime, however.

Once you've hit it with a few negative levels, bust out the save-or-lose magic. Slow is a great way to neutralize the dragon's melee superiority; suddenly the Full Attack of Doom becomes a single not-very-impressive bite attack. Glitterdust, of course, is what is colloquially referred to as "da bomb." Bestow curse can also be very useful--but for God's sake have a spectral hand deliver it for you, you don't want to be in melee with that thing, are you freaking insane?

Or you can just keep on spamming enervation as long as your 4th-level slots hold out, chewing up its attack bonus and saves. Don't count on zeroing out its Hit Dice, though. It's got a prodigious supply of those.

Some dragons like to buff themselves (they're casters too, after all, if not very powerful ones), so keep a dispel magic or two in reserve.

[larnman2]

What is the item that puts up an impenetrable wall? put that a the front of the dragons cave, and literally use explosives to make the cave collapse in on itself. Wait for said amount of time for the dragon to have died of starvation, then clear rubble until you find treasure.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Being high level normally helps particularly if employing a high level Timestop strategy. IMO if the PCs just want to kill a dragon in game to become dragonslayers they shouldn't just wing it. The PCs should prepare for the encounter. Divinations and knowledge checks so the PCs can find a suitable DM approved dragon type (It helps to have the DM on your side and supportive of your goals. Younger dragon ones are usually easier to kill than older dragons). Preparing appropiate tactics for the encounter if for some reason that initial one shot attack fails with a matching CR balanced dragon encounter.

If you really want to make the encounter memorable let one of the players role play the BBEG dragon defending his lair as a PC and throw him a carrot something special for his normal PC if he survives the encounter.

[Chronos]

Ironically, the way to one-shot a dragon using shivering touch does not work on the weakest type of dragon (white).

Or, for that matter, on the second-strongest (silver).

Once you've hit it with a few negative levels, bust out the save-or-lose magic. Slow is a great way to neutralize the dragon's melee superiority; suddenly the Full Attack of Doom becomes a single not-very-impressive bite attack. Glitterdust, of course, is what is colloquially referred to as "da bomb."

Even with Slow and Ray of Enfeeblement, you've still got yourself a high-level sorcerer there with a lot of hit points, and as for Glitterdust, don't most dragons have blindsense? The problem with dragons isn't that they have an overwhelming offense available to them; it's that they have at least three completely independent overwhelming offenses available to them. Sure, a full attack from a dragon isn't too pleasant, but then, neither is a blast of breath from it, nor are any of the spells it'll be tossing around. You need some way to shut down all three to be safe.

[Skjaldbakka]

Attack it with a group of PCs. Assuming the DM is playing within the rules, slaying the dragon will only cost you 25% of your party's resources and is unlikely to kill anyone. Even with dragons being considerably "overpowered" for their CR, they're still well within a party's ability to take down as the day's only encounter.

That would be true, except that dragons aren't an appropriate challenge for their CR. I am fairly certain this was intentional. Demons have the same problem. For some reason, the designers felt that dragons and demons of a given CR should be more challenging than other monster types of the same CR.

[Dausuul]

Even with Slow and Ray of Enfeeblement, you've still got yourself a high-level sorcerer there...

No you don't. A young adult red is CR 13 (meaning you should be at least 9th level to tackle it), but casts as a 5th-level sorc. If the dragon is reduced to relying on its spells to fight you, you've pretty much won--unless you're fighting a really big dragon, in which case you yourself are high enough level that you should already have Batmanned it into oblivion.

...and as for Glitterdust, don't most dragons have blindsense?

Blindsense, not blindsight. Any creature the dragon can't actually see still gets total concealment. 50% miss chance, Dex bonus denied, all that good stuff. Basically, the only thing blindsense does is ensure that the dragon knows which square to target with its attacks.

The problem with dragons isn't that they have an overwhelming offense available to them; it's that they have at least three completely independent overwhelming offenses available to them. Sure, a full attack from a dragon isn't too pleasant, but then, neither is a blast of breath from it, nor are any of the spells it'll be tossing around. You need some way to shut down all three to be safe.

The dragon's melee power far outstrips its magic. The breath weapon is nasty, but can only be used once every 1d4 rounds, and is easily negated with just one spell--that's why you buff with protection from energy before battle. Just keep spread out so it can't catch you all in a single blast, have the cleric renew the protection spell on anybody who's running low, and you should be okay.

It's the crazy claw/claw/bite/wing/wing/tail attack routine that will do you in. Once you have that dealt with, the rest is fairly manageable.

(Oh, one other thing--be sure to have some sort of counter if the dragon decides to grapple you. Grappling a dragon is no fun.)

[Kaelik]

Hmm. Can you use Energy Substitution on Shivering Touch?

No you cannot. However, I'm not completely sure about how RAW it is, but I think it may be, to use Piercing Cold on Shivering Touch. It then only does Half Damage, so you'll want to Maximize and maybe Empower it.

[13_CBS]

*snip*
...that's why you buff with protection from energy before battle. Just keep spread out so it can't catch you all in a single blast, have the cleric renew the protection spell on anybody who's running low, and you should be okay.

So what happens when the dragon tries to dispel your buffs?

[Dausuul]

So what happens when the dragon tries to dispel your buffs?

Usually, it fails, because it's 4 to 6 caster levels lower than you. And if you're spread out enough that it can't hit you all with its breath, it won't be able to get more than two of you with dispel magic. Even if it gets lucky and knocks off one of the protections, the cleric should be able to re-buff fast enough to keep up with the dragon... and each round it spends dispelling is a round it doesn't spend breathing on you or tearing you into tiny little bits. Meanwhile, the fighters are filling it full of arrows and the wizard is spamming debuffination.

Dispel magic is a distinctly sub-optimal tactic for the dragon.

[Cobra]

casts as a 5th-level sorc...

So it most likely fails, and wastes an action in either case. If it does get lucky and actually dispel a protection, the party caster just recasts it next round.

[TheOOB]

Like most high level monsters, the quickest way to beat a dragon is the direct application of save or die or save or lose spells (or no save and lose a'la shivering touch). Dragons have far too many hp to make damage a good way to kill them.

[AslanCross]

It would be so, so, sweet if the dragon's paralysis immunity actually makes it to immune to paralysis from having 0 DEX. In fact, I might just rule that in my campaign...

(It's effectively the same condition anyway, just different causes. At least that's what I'll tell my players.)

[Aquaseafoam]

If the Dragon has any form of dex boosting magic item, causing Dex damage to it, especially with touch spells, will only result in your caster resting rather uncomfortably in the stomach of the dragon.

[Chronos]

No you don't. A young adult red is CR 13 (meaning you should be at least 9th level to tackle it), but casts as a 5th-level sorc. If the dragon is reduced to relying on its spells to fight you, you've pretty much won--unless you're fighting a really big dragon, in which case you yourself are high enough level that you should already have Batmanned it into oblivion.

Hm, you have a point... I was thinking of the possibility of the dragon Teleporting away as soon as the fight went against it, but it looks like any dragon capable of casting Teleport is at least CR 17, so you won't be meeting any of those for quite a while. It's easy to forget that the top several age categories are epic.

[The_Snark]

Hm, you have a point... I was thinking of the possibility of the dragon Teleporting away as soon as the fight went against it, but it looks like any dragon capable of casting Teleport is at least CR 17, so you won't be meeting any of those for quite a while. It's easy to forget that the top several age categories are epic.

Of course, any dragon at all will be able to wheel about and get out of the range of all but long-range spells in a single round, so they don't really need to be teleporting. It's spells like Heal that you need to watch out for.

Actually, if your DM selects spells well, even low-level spells can mean death. Blood Wind, anyone?