Are my puzzles fair?

[Darth Credence]

I'm making a carnival for my players, and one of the things in it is a hall of mystery. I plan on puzzles for them to solve, and I'm not sure if what I have is viable for them to solve. I intend to give hints from insight/intelligence/whatever checks, but if they don't make sense, I don't want to use them.
So, to start, I have a riddle that they would have to solve to even get in.

I am what I am and what you suppose,
I’ve been beat like a drum and I’m error filled prose,
Between wheat and chaff I am forced to impose,
You’ll find that the answer is full of holes.

Spoiler: Answer to riddle

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The answer is "riddle". I am what I am is simply stating that I am a riddle. A riddle drum is an instrument made by beating on a riddle sieve, which is used to separate wheat from chaff. And something can be riddled with holes.

Is this a bad riddle?

[JNAProductions]

I didn't figure it out, I read the answer. And it makes sense...

But see, if you gave this to me as a player, I'd be annoyed. Because I don't play D&D for riddles like this. Which is not to say "Don't do this!" It is, however, to say "Gauge your players."

Do they like riddles and puzzles? If they do, then great! Hopefully they struggle for a bit, figure it out, then feel accomplished. But if not, I wouldn't do this.

If you're not sure, perhaps include it as a side thing. A locked door that needs the riddle to be opened, but isn't essential to their path. (And, should they find a way into the locked room without answering the riddle, let them have their reward anyway.)

[Xervous]

D&D riddles have the same issue that skills in 5e do: one chance hit or miss. Either the players get it or they won’t, don’t impose a dull consequence for failing to get the riddle, or have ways for the players to build up incremental success on the challenge.

[OldTrees1]

You know the knowledge base of your players better than I do but,
The answer to the riddle was not "a fallacy" and did rely on some obscure knowledge and tenuous connections.

Spoiler: Critiques based on answer

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How does "error filled prose" describe a riddle? Most riddles are accurate yet indirect prose rather than erroneous prose. Also the last line of the riddle has a similar issue. A riddle is not riddled with holes. So the answer is not full of holes.

These issues with the riddle actually do make it error filled and full of holes, but that is not normal.

Riddles are not necessarily bad puzzles, through they have their downsides, and language based puzzles have subjective difficulty, but I would say it is a bad riddle on the first look. With your first hand knowledge of your players, it might be a fine riddle.

[Vahnavoi]

Spoiler: Reply to OldTrees1

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It's a reference to way of speech: "riddled with errors", "riddled with holes" etc.

I think it's a decent riddle. It relies on your players being native english speakers, but I think that's a fair assumption.

[Darth Credence]

Thanks for the feedback. This is just what I needed. I can see that I need to work a bit more on this one, and I can do that. I'm thinking of dropping some archaic uses. I can find an existing riddle, but I know that at least one of my players really likes riddles and may already know any I can easily find and copy. (He's also the one who plays a high Int wizard, so that works out.)

JNA - This is specifically for a carnival that the players can attend, and it is part of the "Hall of Mystery". They do not have to enter the Hall - there are other things to do at the carnival, such as tests of strength, archery competitions, a battle of the bands thing for bards, and so on. If they do decide to give it a shot, they have to pay money to get in, with a larger prize if they solve everything in it, and a grand prize for the fastest time (which would come down to them or their rival in town). I would not expect them to get every puzzle, because I would use various intelligence based checks to give them hints or to just come up with the answer.

Xervous - I do have some hints for it, and would let them roll repeated checks to determine if they get a hint, or just get it answered entirely. (A 15-20 on their first insight check would give them 'Why would a riddle start by saying 'I am what I am'?', while breaking 20 would have the person rolling it be given the answer and explanation.)

Spoiler: Critiques based on answer

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How does "error filled prose" describe a riddle? Most riddles are accurate yet indirect prose rather than erroneous prose. Also the last line of the riddle has a similar issue. A riddle is not riddled with holes. So the answer is not full of holes.

These issues with the riddle actually do make it error filled and full of holes, but that is not normal.

Spoiler: Response to critiques

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A book that has a lot of errors in it would commonly be referred to as 'riddled with errors'. Something that has a lot of holes in it is considered 'riddled with holes'. Different meanings of the word riddle. I think I could shorten the riddle and remove the reference to a riddle sieve and a riddle drum, but I can't come up with a way for it to work without the modern uses.

After the riddle to get in the door (which may completely change), they would have a series of four rooms to pass to complete the hall. This is basically a D&D version of an escape room.

The first room they would make it into would require them to find a series of keys that have been hidden in the room, with a simple cipher telling them where the keys are. The code word to crack the cipher would be the name of the carnival. Alternately, if the bard goes in, she should be able to pick through the locks, which is acceptable by the rules of the Hall.

The second room would be completely dark, and would be a bit of a maze. Every path would lead back to the door, but each panel of the wall starts two feet off the ground, so any of them can crawl under the walls directly to the door.

I have not decided on the last two rooms.

[OldTrees1]

Spoiler: Response to critiques

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A book that has a lot of errors in it would commonly be referred to as 'riddled with errors'. Something that has a lot of holes in it is considered 'riddled with holes'. Different meanings of the word riddle. I think I could shorten the riddle and remove the reference to a riddle sieve and a riddle drum, but I can't come up with a way for it to work without the modern uses.

Spoiler

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The obscure reference to riddle drum might work. Just think about the knowledge base of your players. There are obscure clues I could give that my players would readily grasp. So that clue was to obscure for me, but might not be for your players.

The main critique here is a riddle is not riddled with holes or riddled with errors. The clue points to the subject (the corpse full of holes or the book with the errors) but you intended the clue to point to the adjective (riddled). Hence why the clue lead me to guess a subject (a Fallacy) that is riddled with holes and errors. Consider "I can fill something with holes" rather than "I am full of holes".

[Segev]

If you're going to have a reference to archaic things that many likely haven't heard of, you should probably have something of a clue for them before they get there.

Spoiler

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A riddle-drum is not a device I'd ever heard of before this thread. To make this work without making it a give-away, I would have one show up very prominently before they get in there. Maybe they get a side-quest to help a winnower repair or acquire a replacement for one that broke. Something that makes "riddle-drum" a phrase they've heard and a device of which they know the function, without it being something that puts the word 'riddle' in front of them as part of the answer. i.e., don't make it an Int or Knowledge check right at the point they get the riddle.

[Darth Credence]

Spoiler

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The obscure reference to riddle drum might work. Just think about the knowledge base of your players. There are obscure clues I could give that my players would readily grasp. So that clue was to obscure for me, but might not be for your players.

The main critique here is a riddle is not riddled with holes or riddled with errors. The clue points to the subject (the corpse full of holes or the book with the errors) but you intended the clue to point to the adjective (riddled). Hence why the clue lead me to guess a subject (a Fallacy) that is riddled with holes and errors. Consider "I can fill something with holes" rather than "I am full of holes".

I see what you're saying, and will try to rephrase.

If you're going to have a reference to archaic things that many likely haven't heard of, you should probably have something of a clue for them before they get there.

Spoiler

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A riddle-drum is not a device I'd ever heard of before this thread. To make this work without making it a give-away, I would have one show up very prominently before they get in there. Maybe they get a side-quest to help a winnower repair or acquire a replacement for one that broke. Something that makes "riddle-drum" a phrase they've heard and a device of which they know the function, without it being something that puts the word 'riddle' in front of them as part of the answer. i.e., don't make it an Int or Knowledge check right at the point they get the riddle.

I like that, and I can see how to integrate it.

Spoiler: Additional clue

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They will be in a farming town on the way, and one thing that happens in the town is that they gather every night to sing and play in honor of their deity. I think a group of farmers that have taken their sieves and use them as a drumming section, asking the bard to join them and specifically calling out the instruments in use, would go a long way towards working this out. That would allow an insight check to nudge them to thinking of the drums they have seen recently. I wish I had a bit more time between sessions so it's not completely obvious, but the rate these guys move it could still take 3-4 sessions just to travel to where the carnival is, so that should work out.

[Segev]

I like that, and I can see how to integrate it.

Spoiler: Additional clue

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They will be in a farming town on the way, and one thing that happens in the town is that they gather every night to sing and play in honor of their deity. I think a group of farmers that have taken their sieves and use them as a drumming section, asking the bard to join them and specifically calling out the instruments in use, would go a long way towards working this out. That would allow an insight check to nudge them to thinking of the drums they have seen recently. I wish I had a bit more time between sessions so it's not completely obvious, but the rate these guys move it could still take 3-4 sessions just to travel to where the carnival is, so that should work out.

If you can make it so the thing in question is something the PCs need to interact with, specifically, that would be the best way to do it.

Spoiler

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This is why I suggested the somewhat hokey "our riddle-drum is broken; can you find us a replacement?" side-quest, because it will get the players referencing "riddle-drums" a few times, themselves, fairly naturally. By getting it to be something they are concerned about specifically enough to say the name of a few times, it will stick in their minds enough that they will naturally have a shot of remembering it's a thing when solving a riddle.

[Mastikator]

I had to google half of it to even understand why the answer is correct, English is not my native language so there's that. Never in a million years could I possibly guess it. However this is a test of the player's skill in English. Not the PCs skill in English. Symbolic riddles are more internationally friendly.

[Lagtime]

Is this a bad riddle?

Yes, in many ways.

Simply put "in universe" riddles about daily life in the Long Ago Time Before Time are a bad idea. The typical 21st player is not an expert historian, so they won't be able to solve a riddle like this.

When you do a riddle in an RPG you need to stick to basic universal things like dark and light, and physical objects everyone knows...like say buckets and ladders.

The fact that you plan to give lots of hints and have then do lots of rolls and have staged set up of "hey look at this obscure old tyme thing and remember it might be important" does show that you think it won't go well. I cn see the spot in the game where you are giving the 5th clue and 5th roll and doing the annoying "oh come on guys I gave it away, just think" Riddlemaster thing....can you?

And to top it all off.....your twisting things.

Spoiler: Twist

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The answer to what you are describing is not "Riddle" it's "Riddle Drum". Your clues are describing the physical object....NOT the "what is a things you don't know with clues". A "riddle" does not separate crops and you do not bang on a riddle

To me, an unsolvable riddle like this is just the DM saying he does not want us to play the game: so I'd just leave.

[Taffimai]

I wanted to throw my two cp in and say that even though I had never heard of a riddle drum before, "riddle" would still have been my first guess, because it's the word that connects the first and the last clue (being riddled with holes was very clear). Being familiar with this style of riddle (a series of word plays that all point to a single word) obviously helps.

Honestly, the riddle is fine, it's all in how you handle it as a DM: don't make your players suffer or feel dumb. Present the riddle, let them have a guess if they like it (and it sounds like one of your players definitely would), and then let them roll an Int check for clues. Personally, I would find the ploy with the "oh noes, I've lost my oddly specific farming implement" a bit on the nose, I'd much rather have my character roll a dc 10 check to have her remember the existence of such a thing after I guess wrong. YMMV

Also, that maze is a magnificent idea and I'm going to steal it. I would never think of that, it's so cheating-but-not-impossible just like real carnival games, and I'd never encountered it before. It's probably a good idea to have the simpler first room there as a buffer in case your players hate the riddle, so the experience as a whole isn't a string of "look at how much smarter I am than you all". Please post the next two rooms when you figure them out, I'm looking forward to them.

[Studoku]

It's not the riddle, it's the implementation. What happens if they don't know the answer?

[Darth Credence]

It's not the riddle, it's the implementation. What happens if they don't know the answer?

Hints, or finally being given the answer based on skill checks.

Well, the party blew by the other stuff they could have done, and quickly arrived at the carnival. They have never moved that quickly before. I gave them free passes to any one area in the Carnival, and the guy who likes riddles and puzzles looked like he was going to wet himself as he asked for the pass to the Wondrous World area that contains the hall. So I have until Saturday to finish it.

My third puzzle is going to be a variation on the finding the counterfeit coin puzzle. They will have to put in exactly 11 gold pieces in a slot to open the door, and 12 coins will be available with one being an off weight counterfeit. A scale will be available once per minute to figure out which is the counterfeit - they can keep weighing until they get it, figure out the puzzle, or just pump in 11 gold of their own to get through.

I'm drawing a blank for the last one so far.

[Kaptin Keen]

Puzzles are tricky.

Once, years ago, we were sitting at a friends house, drinking beer - and we start swapping riddles. One guy, Allan, happens to know a fiendishly difficult one. We try for hours, to no avail.

Then one guy, who had to join us later, walks in, hears the riddle, and solves it on the first go. He just wrinkles his brow for 2-3 seconds, and asks 'it's a parrot, right?' The bastard! =)

So it's often a question of .... does the right answer randomly occur - or not.

[Darth Credence]

Well, they played out the hall of mystery. The guy who really likes riddles did not solve it, but someone else did, pretty quickly. What they actually had the hardest time with was the maze. Even when they searched the walls and found that they were several feet off the ground, they said they needed to find the way out and then crawl under. Same guy who solved the riddle eventually said 'can't we just crawl under the walls anywhere?' That got them out. And they did eventually feed in their own gold in the coin room, mostly because everything going on at the carnival has been a massive money pit, so they just assumed that this had to be another case of trying to take their money.

The final room I just went with two exit doors, with a guard standing immediately in front of each door, blocking the exit. The puzzle people started trying to figure out questions to ask them, while the time was running out to win the grand prize. The ranger decided, 'screw this', and said he was just walking out. That was the actual solution - neither door was any different, and the guards were not going to actually stop anyone, just try to convince them not to go through the door.

In the end, they about broke even on money, but the grand prize was a hat of wizardry. This was mostly the main prize because I found a wizard's hat for $5, and I had a bunch of glue on rhinestones around. So I glued "WIZZARD" on the hat, and gave it out - for them to use the hat in game, they have to wear the hat IRL. The wizard loved it so much, they took it with them when they went to pick up the pizza, and got a selfie of him and the pizza people with it. I'll have to have him send me the picture and post it.

All in all, it went really well. I kept things moving so we only spent about 20 minutes of real time in the hall, and the players all really enjoyed it. Next time, they get to participate in the great Melee - about 100 people in a field where the last person standing wins the prize. Drop your weapon and you're out, but no one can attack you. Between that, the Battle of the Bards, and the menagerie, that should take up the next session. Thanks for the advice, everyone.

[Yakk]

So, one way to approach riddles in a game is the rule of 3.

3 clues, 3 solutions, etc.

For a riddle, present the riddle. Finding the solution is one way through the puzzle. But provide 2 other ways (narratively "later", without the riddle blocking the way).

As an example, if a Riddle's solution is how to open a secret door, hidden elsewhere in the complex there are blueprints to the building (which tells you where the door is, and where the opening mechanism is), and somewhere else is a ghost whose corpse is hidden behind the door (and, if they promise to put her corpse to rest, will help the PCs).

Next, if there is some information hidden behind that door, that same information is also hidden in 2 other places (maybe not in the same complex). There could also be something unique (a magic item mayhap) behind that one door, but getting that item is not plot-critical (that serves as a reward in case players already have the information from another source, plus two-source information can make players more confident of its accuracy).

For your puzzle, you could do this:

+----+----+----+
| 1  #      2  |
|    #         |
+-##-+-##-+-##-+
| A  # 1  | 3  |
|    #    |    |
+-##-+-##-+    |
| 1  # 2  #    |
|    #    #    |
+-##-+-##-+-##-+
| 2  # 3  # B  |
|    #    #    |
|    +----+-##-+
|    # 3       |
|    #         |
+----+---------+

where each box is an escape room, A is where you start, B is where you exit. ## represent "doors" that go from the lower-numbered to the higher when you beat a room.

Failing any one puzzle doesn't get anyone stuck here. You can also stick clues to room 1/2 on the "other branch" in rooms numbered 2/3.

The adventure becomes "structurally redundant".

[Jason]

You can put whatever difficulty of puzzles you like so long as failing to answer the riddle or solve the puzzle doesn't mean the adventure is over. Build in alternate but more difficult ways to proceed in the adventure as the fail condition.