Mages and Wizards

[Triaxx]

I've seen numerous solutions to the problem of arcane magic-users being tremendously over powered. For a fighter trying to fight a battle, it boils down to:

Fighter charges, sword high, screaming. Wizard glances up waves hand: Finger of Death. Fighter dies.

I've seen numerous attempts to fix it, including spell points, and I personally have added HP costs. Nothing seems to work sufficiently well to eliminate the problem. Even a helmet of 'Neener, neener, I'm immune to instant death', merely causes bolts of lightning.

So why not solve the problem in a slightly unusual way. Split up the wizard's spells into Mage Spells and Wizard Spells. Mages get all those fancy effect spells, and perhaps Chromatic Orb, and Magic Missile while Wizards get all those nasty blaster spells, along with Sleep and Charm Monster. The big difficulty comes in balancing the two classes. Thoughts?

[Lakoda]

This is starting to get at what (I think) is the heart of the problem with caster vs. non-caster imbalance. The problem isn't uses per some period of time, or the cost to use a single spell/ability. It boils down to the spells themselves. They too broadly encompass all things. It's a bard that can do everything and do it well.

I usually require casters specialize and then I bar 2-3 other schools (I think I've seen similar ideas around here on more then one occasion). I usually work with the players and their character's story concept to come up with personalized selections that balance well enough - nothing with hard and fast rules (or even soft and squishy rules).

With more advanced players I have banned full casters out right. It works for us b/c we prefer magic to be less pervasive but still a substantial part of the world.

I think it would be a great idea to start separating the the Wizzy/Sorc spell list in two (or more) to break up those super-munchkin-combos.

[Triaxx]

Exactly. I never considered banning full casters. I'd get cast out with the orcs.

After thinking about it, anything mind-affecting, anything of the enchantment school, would fall under the parlance of the mage. Spells like ShapeChange or Polymorph Self would be spells for both classes.

As for Sorcerors, I suppose we could divide that, but the way they tend to be played is as blasters, so perhaps giving them the choice of the Wizard or Mage spells at level one would be easier.

[Nelphine]

i wouldn't nescessarily split the spells as you've suggested.
most of the most abusable spells have nothing to do with damage; they simply have special effects that are way out there and can copy too many things.
the damage spells that pose problems are save or die spells (which i generally disallow for various reasons) and spells that have tons of metamagics tacked onto them. without the metamagic feats, damage spells simply don't hit hard enough in most cases to be truly abusive.

[Eruenno]

I must object to this...
Finger of Death
~Save: Fortitude(3d6 +1 dmg per level if save successful)
Fighters top save? That's right... fortitude.

And god have mercy on the soul of the wizard who gets approached by a melee fighter... whether it's a fighter, barbarian, battle-cleric or a monk, wizard would be DONE FOR(not to mention the sneaky guys wizard probably couldn't even hit or smth). I think there is no imbalance really, and wizards aren't solo-types anyway. They always serve as a support/ranged unit in adventuring groups...

[Triaxx]

That's the trick. I wasn't going to allow Mage's to have Metamagic.

An enlarged Finger of Death still only hits one person, an enlarged Fireball is useful at any level.

[Lakoda]

You can mitigate a lot of the metamagic problems if you only allow a spell to be cast while under one or no metamagic feats, none of this double or triple crap. It is a lot harder to abuse that way.

If I had the time today I would, but someone should start a list of the problem/abusable spells and spell combos.

[Triaxx]

I've never had that particular problem. I always limit Metamagic to no more than two. That seems to fix the problem easily enough.

I also limited it to a maximum level of nine. No meta-magicing level ten (eleven, twelve, fifteen) spells. If it goes over that limit, you can't have it.

[Vadin]

In my games, I've banned divine casters and full normal arcane casters. I use ToM's shadowcasting for Wizards, and the Wilder (a psionic class) for Sorcerers. Bards and their 2/3 casting are acceptable. I find that this divides up magic quite nicely and balances the game quite a bit. It also makes the different casters seem really, really different, a definite plus.

[Ssiauhll]

Wizards really aren't that great. Alone they can not take on any thing approaching the same CR as a combat oriented class. The only time when they can, maybe, is when you plan for it in advance. Then with planning they stand a chance. Combat classes will always dominate over time in ass kickatude.

What flashy bits they can do are limited and just that, flashy with out substance. For example even at mid levels, a lightening bolt throwing wizard (mine) with lots of preparation (scrolls and potions) was having a hard time keeping up with the damage of the fighter types. Combat damage doesn't have saves (which always seem to be made) reducing or eliminating the damage. At the same time it never left my mind that my PC was very squishy, it wouldn't take much for him to die. Any player of a wizard will relate stories.

[Roderick_BR]

Wizards really aren't that great. Alone they can not take on any thing approaching the same CR as a combat oriented class. The only time when they can, maybe, is when you plan for it in advance. Then with planning they stand a chance. Combat classes will always dominate over time in ass kickatude.

What flashy bits they can do are limited and just that, flashy with out substance. For example even at mid levels, a lightening bolt throwing wizard (mine) with lots of preparation (scrolls and potions) was having a hard time keeping up with the damage of the fighter types. Combat damage doesn't have saves (which always seem to be made) reducing or eliminating the damage. At the same time it never left my mind that my PC was very squishy, it wouldn't take much for him to die. Any player of a wizard will relate stories.

Search the D20 board, and you'll see dozens of ways that a wizard can even solo CRs above him, with a handful of spell selections. "Good" wizard builds will not deal direct damage. They'll terrible cripple of outright destroy the enemies, and quoting an often used line: "If a meeler managed to get close to your wizard, you are playing it wrong".

[Triaxx]

Which is the whole point. Cantrips would remain universal, but an example of the split list is:

Mage:
Dominate Person
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Mind Fog
Symbol of Sleep

Wizard:
Cone of Cold
Cloud Kill

All the power there is balanced against the wizard.

Even at level 9, it stacks out like so:

Mage:
Dominate Monster
Hold Monster, Mass
Power Word: Kill
Soul Bind
Wail of the Banshee

Wizard:
Energy Drain
Meteor Swarm
Crushing Hand

Definitely unbalanced. I know I wouldn't give Mages access to Time Stop though.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I've always approached this from the other direction: make the skill-monkeys and warrior classes better.
I think that's an idea I ported over from OD&D - the fighters got to increase their favourite weapon's damage to awesome levels, so that at high level, wizards might be impressive, but the fighter was the guy you sent in to kill stuff.

Anyway, back to the thread topic...
Restricting spells is always a good idea for fast adjustment of the existing rules. the sheer number of spells - even just in the PHB - is enough for broken combijnations to be lurking unnoticed by even the best play-test team. Now that we're all posting our best kill-combos online and reading those of our peers - especially since the OGL effectively homogenised much of the RPG scene into a cross-pollenating hyper-Darwinian memetic brew of pwnage - deadly ideas are easy to come by unless those spells are nerfed or vetoed.

Simplest way I ever found of getting rid of spells I didn't want is to say no-one has ever written them in-game. If the character wants to spend the time and effort researching it for herself, then fine: you'll need another character for this adventure, 'cause your wizard is busy in her lab. No? Oh, okay, you can manage without that spell? Great.