OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

...he's already had chance after chance to turn back and he's turned down every single one, so I don't see why he'd act any differently this time.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

As Right-Eye mentioned, he hasn't matured at all since he put on the cloak- he's the same angry kid making the same bad choices over and over. I think that's an important part of what his whole story is supposed to be about.

I almost concur with the spoiler, but I do not agree that Redcloak is emotionally trapped by the cloak's magic such that he becomes a static character. He'd been wearing that cloak for a while before he made "The Choice" in SoD, so I get the idea that Rich does intend for Redcloak to have agency. And I also think that Rich intends for him to experience some character growth. (MiTD does char growth; MiTD is also a Team Evil member going back to SoD times). See comic 451 for one of Redcloak's "aha!" moments and a change of viewpoint.

[Ionathus]

That would give the moment he does change more impact, wouldn’t it? Besides, you have to build something up to tear it down.

Don't you know Evil always triumphs in the middle??

I agree! Honestly, everyone is saying "Redcloak has had plenty of chances!" but that's the point -- it's going to take a lot for him to change his mind, or it wouldn't be as interesting a story.

I'm reminded of Gift Jeraff's old signature (just spent 20 min trying to find it, sadly couldn't) of a proposed change to the Tarquin fight at Girard's Rift:

Elan: dad plz dont kill roy
Tarquin: ok

(Giant's response: "Damn it! Now I have to rewrite #917!")

[understatement]

I can easily believe that Redcloak will die unredeemed, but the counterpoint of "he's Evil and has done so much crimes" against his cooperation with the order is somewhat of a hard sell.

[mashlagoo1982]

Durkon also neglected to mention the important fact as to why he (and his entire race) specifically is/are interested in a peaceful resolution that doesn't involve destroying the world. The fact that if the gods follow through with destroying the world, most of his race will go to Hel.

Granted, it maybe a bad idea to tell RC that bit of information. I could see it motivating him to make Plan B his new Plan A. But, it would also illustrate exactly why RC should trust Durkon at least a little. The situation has forced Durkon to try and become allies with RC.

This also assumes RC would believe Durkon.

[bunsen_h]

Depends on how they got there. If they were summoned with one of the Summon Monster spells, that would be true. If they got there under their own power (or calling spells, like Gate), then they are Evil Outsiders, and we know what happens to Outsiders that die.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

"In order to prepare authentic evil ethnic food, the kitchen here summons all of the seasonings directly from the Spice Rack of the Damned, in the Abyss. You know, Malevolent Basil, Thyme of Death, Cumin of 1000 Horrors, that sort of thing. Anyway, the rancid smell of the cooking attracts the roaches from the other side of the portal and then they get stuck here."

And then they just sort of start following Xykon around.

I'm not sure how that fits with the cosmological aspects, since they weren't summoned, but they tagged along with some other stuff that was.

[Ionathus]

Durkon also neglected to mention the important fact as to why he (and his entire race) specifically is/are interested in a peaceful resolution that doesn't involve destroying the world. The fact that if the gods follow through with destroying the world, most of his race will go to Hel.

Granted, it maybe a bad idea to tell RC that bit of information. I could see it motivating him to make Plan B his new Plan A. But, it would also illustrate exactly why RC should trust Durkon at least a little. The situation has forced Durkon to try and become allies with RC.

This also assumes RC would believe Durkon.

I do wonder what the "I understand where you're coming from, my people have been oppressed too, here's an explanation of the Hel situation for Dwarves" angle would've gotten them if Durkon had committed more fully to it, rather than just alluded to it in passing. Possibly a higher-charisma character could make that personal appeal work.

Of course, it could also just reinforce Redcloak's opinion that The Gods don't care about them and he has to make them care. But it could give Durkon more credibility in Redcloak's eyes (potentially).

[Fyraltari]

Depends on how they got there. If they were summoned with one of the Summon Monster spells, that would be true. If they got there under their own power (or calling spells, like Gate), then they are Evil Outsiders, and we know what happens to Outsiders that die.

This game really doesn’t make much sense, does it?

[TheNecrocomicon]

Random observation, but Minrah being very much on the front-lines of this fight pummelling a near-epic-level cleric when she's mid-level at best worries me greatly for when Thor's Might gets dispelled or wears off. She's by far the closer and less-well-defended target from where Redcloak is currently picking himself up of the proverbial mat.

A mid-level cleric/fighter and a high-level cleric versus a near-epic-level cleric and a seemingly high-level ranger/beastmistress (with the looming threat of high-epic-level lich intervention) does not strike me as a favourable or survivable situation without the rest of the Order making an entrance really soon.

I'm reminded of Gift Jeraff's old signature (just spent 20 min trying to find it, sadly couldn't)

That's because their current signature is still bragging about the lucky correct call about something minor that happened over 500 strips ago (or nearly half the comic).

[Riftwolf]

Am I wrong for reading the roach stomp as a throwaway end-of-page gag rather than a critical moment in Jirixs character?

[TheNecrocomicon]

This game really doesn’t make much sense, does it?

A strange game. The only winning move is not to enter the Material Plane.

How about a nice round of Go?

[Jasdoif]

This game really doesn’t make much sense, does it?

In this specific case, I think it's more that they keep changing it. (Also that they wanted "just have an outsider under your control for a single fight" and "bargain with an outsider for longer than a single fight" in the same game, and stealing two cakes is prone to side effects.)

[KorvinStarmast]

I can easily believe that Redcloak will die unredeemed, but the counterpoint of "he's Evil and has done so much crimes" against his cooperation with the order is somewhat of a hard sell.

So far, his cooperation sums up to zero, but I guess you're forecasting a change of viewpoint.

Am I wrong for reading the roach stomp as a throwaway end-of-page gag rather than a critical moment in Jirixs character?

You are not wrong.
(I thought the best roach gag was Belkar using one to help cook the stew).

[Metastachydium]

So far, his cooperation sums up to zero, but I guess your forecasting a change of viewpoint. You are not wrong.
(I thought the best roach gag was Belkar using one to help cook the stew).

And I'd say that was pretty much the most useful they ever got (barring that one time when one of them helped the Monster unleash that earthquake).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Miko also used one to light off her little IED.

And I figure the pantheons don't need to take a vote on what to do if somebody actually tries to get control of a rift. They probably had that vote worlds ago, and I'd bet several peelees of quatloos that it involves the phrase 'reboot everything'. Or as Belkar put it 'when in doubt, set it on fire'.

[Metastachydium]

Miko also used one to light off her little IED.

Eh. Completely forgot about that one. Thanks.

And I figure the pantheons don't need to take a vote on what to do if somebody actually tries to get control of a rift. They probably had that vote worlds ago, and I'd bet several peelees of quatloos that it involves the phrase 'reboot everything'. Or as Belkar put it 'when in doubt, set it on fire'.

Since as far as we know, the Dark One can only move Rifts because they have Gates around them and Gates are a fairly recent invention, I would not be quite as sure that such a vote has taken place, let alone resulted in something that is still in vigour.

[realdrago]

Could someone call fire department ?
Maybe Ambulance too?
There's a lot of burn in this strip.

Don't forget that hero's diplomacy tactic are the same as bugbear's one .

[Worldsong]

Well, personally I don't see Redcloak's redemption as likely, but that's not because I have anything against goblins (heck, I'm like one of three people on this forum with a goblin avatar). It's more just because he's already had chance after chance to turn back and he's turned down every single one, so I don't see why he'd act any differently this time.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

As Right-Eye mentioned, he hasn't matured at all since he put on the cloak- he's the same angry kid making the same bad choices over and over. I think that's an important part of what his whole story is supposed to be about.

I want to point out that the idea that Redcloak has turned down too many chances to turn back relies rather heavily on SoD content. Which doesn't mean it has no value at all but I think the main story is written in such a way that you don't need the supplementary material for it to make sense.

From the perspective of someone who's only read the main story this is the first time Redcloak has been given an alternative to The Plan, and the first time that it's shown just how invested he is in making The Plan succeed. I know that some people have argued that he could just have stayed behind to help build up Gobbotopia but I think Xykon made that unfeasible, especially since it's been mentioned that the main reason the hobgoblin army is still alive is because Xykon finds killing them less amusing than letting them take over Azure City and claim it for their own.

I guess my point is that I'd want those things to be mentioned in the main story before I'd give it as much weight as the stuff which happens in the main story, and what we've got so far is that Redcloak isn't going to be convinced the first time a dwarven cleric comes along and tells him that the gods are willing to negotiate. With, it has to be said, rather half-assed promises.

[Ionathus]

Could someone call fire department ?
Maybe Ambulance too?
There's a lot of burn in this strip.

Don't forget that hero's diplomacy tactic are the same as bugbear's one .

"Spirited exchanging of ideas" is my party's first diplomatic tactic to most villains as well! Heaven help us if they discover the Enlarge/Reduce spell.

Miko also used one to light off her little IED.

That's my personal favorite use of the roaches as well!

[Metastachydium]

I want to point out that the idea that Redcloak has turned down too many chances to turn back relies rather heavily on SoD content. Which doesn't mean it has no value at all but I think the main story is written in such a way that you don't need the supplementary material for it to make sense.

Personally, I do not subscribe to the whole idea of „he had chance after chance to turn back.” He had one actual shot at turning on Xykon,

Spoiler: SoD

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and all he would have achieved through trying that would have been keeping his hands clean, while dooming himself and without even saving Right-Eye. (Disclaimer: needless to say, this makes his choice none the less acceptable morally.)

[Worldsong]

Personally, I do not subscribe to the whole idea of „he had chance after chance to turn back.” He had one actual shot at turning on Xykon,

Spoiler: SoD

Show

and all he would have achieved through trying that would have been keeping his hands clean, while dooming himself and without even saving Right-Eye. (Disclaimer: needless to say, this makes his choice none the less acceptable morally.)

That's also a fair point.

Personally I'm focusing on the approach that an argument has more weight if it can be presented to someone who only knows the main story without relying on spoilers and still be convincing.

[Metastachydium]

That's also a fair point.

Personally I'm focusing on the approach that an argument has more weight if it can be presented to someone who only knows the main story without relying on spoilers and still be convincing.

I see. That's certainly a way of looking at things.
(Also, at any rate, I wholeheartedly agree with „what we've got so far is that Redcloak isn't going to be convinced the first time a dwarven cleric comes along and tells him that the gods are willing to negotiate. With, it has to be said, rather half-assed promises.”)

[Ruck]

Am I wrong for reading the roach stomp as a throwaway end-of-page gag rather than a critical moment in Jirixs character?

I don't think so. People are trying to read a lot into Jirix's motivation, but I think it's just a joke on the demon roach self-owning by saying Jirix can work without distractions, when the demon roach is itself a distraction.

[Skull the Troll]

Random observation, but Minrah being very much on the front-lines of this fight pummelling a near-epic-level cleric when she's mid-level at best worries me greatly for when Thor's Might gets dispelled or wears off. She's by far the closer and less-well-defended target from where Redcloak is currently picking himself up of the proverbial mat.

A mid-level cleric/fighter and a high-level cleric versus a near-epic-level cleric and a seemingly high-level ranger/beastmistress (with the looming threat of high-epic-level lich intervention) does not strike me as a favourable or survivable situation without the rest of the Order making an entrance really soon.



That's because their current signature is still bragging about the lucky correct call about something minor that happened over 500 strips ago (or nearly half the comic).

She's holding mjolnir. (or close enough) Bound to have an effect. Also Redcloak has shown her zero attention so far. Hes trying to ignore her to focus on Durkon. If that changes tho...

[Sebastian]

If, say, a level 25 fighter and a level 3 Paladin are fighting a level 27 barbarian in a pure brawl, and the barbarian dies, if feels like the contribution of the Paladin was negligible and so they shouldn’t earn XP.

If, however, the Paladin deliberately triggered a rockfall that squashed the barbarian like a bug then obviously the Paladin should get the credit (and XP) for that victory.

It should not be about contribution, it should be about challenge

If a 2nd level fighter and a 17 level wizard fight a dozen goblins and the wizard kill them all with a spell, it should get 0 xps because for him that was a trivial encounter. For the same (but reversed) reason in your example the paladin should get a fair share of XPs, because even if he was unable to contribute he was still risking his life.

[Sebastian]

About Xykon, I was thinking, if the gods decide to unmake the world, what stop him from flying to his astral fortress/tomb and just wait here until they make a new one? And how is possible than in all the thousands of world nobody did the same? Or just went to one of the outer planes as Hilgya plans to do? Some of these world could have no access to the astral plane (i.e. no magic) but still it is weird.

[The MunchKING]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

"In order to prepare authentic evil ethnic food, the kitchen here summons all of the seasonings directly from the Spice Rack of the Damned, in the Abyss. You know, Malevolent Basil, Thyme of Death, Cumin of 1000 Horrors, that sort of thing. Anyway, the rancid smell of the cooking attracts the roaches from the other side of the portal and then they get stuck here."

And then they just sort of start following Xykon around.

I'm not sure how that fits with the cosmological aspects, since they weren't summoned, but they tagged along with some other stuff that was.

Yeah I think that means they wandered in through a Gate or something. They are there "in the Flesh" so to speak, so they would for real die.

This game really doesn’t make much sense, does it?

Reality is complicated. When you get into making fictional magic rules and whole cosmologies, nerds like to hash out all the rules. WHich means as they are compared to 'real life', those rules tend to get complicated too.

A strange game. The only winning move is not to enter the Material Plane.

Dying on thier own plane is just as bad for them really.

[Worldsong]

About Xykon, I was thinking, if the gods decide to unmake the world, what stop him from flying to his astral fortress/tomb and just wait here until they make a new one? And how is possible than in all the thousands of world nobody did the same? Or just went to one of the outer planes as Hilgya plans to do? Some of these world could have no access to the astral plane (i.e. no magic) but still it is weird.

Given the fact that the gods are willing to wipe the minds of all the outsiders in between worlds and would rather nobody knew about the Snarl I'd guess that they don't react kindly to anyone trying that kind of thing.

Also the kind of immortality which actually lasts long enough to cover the timespan between worlds is most likely very rare, especially since the Snarl Cycle is keeping the power levels low. I'd guess we're talking about timespans which last long enough that even dragons who can easily live upwards of thousands of years don't make it.

[Psyren]

Random thought - it would be funny if Redcloak recognized Durkon from when he saw him before

[ATHATH]

Come on, Redcloak, your display in panels 2 and 3 was just pathetic. You're a near-epic level full caster, and you're being dunked on by someone who's never cast Thor's Might before?

[Rogar Demonblud]

About Xykon, I was thinking, if the gods decide to unmake the world, what stop him from flying to his astral fortress/tomb and just wait here until they make a new one? And how is possible than in all the thousands of world nobody did the same? Or just went to one of the outer planes as Hilgya plans to do? Some of these world could have no access to the astral plane (i.e. no magic) but still it is weird.

Oh, somebody has probably tried. But there's nothing keeping a deity from sending about two hundred creatures formerly tasked with answering mortal prayers to crush said offender.