OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread

[Clistenes]

You know, if Oona has listened and understood everything... what reason does she have to not backstab Redcloak like, right now? She isn't even religious, and Redcloak has pretty much admitted that he doesn't care if the world and all goblinoids on it are destroyed because of his Plan...

Mmmm... TMitD is already covertly working against Team Evil, Oona has every reason to turn against Redcloak, and Xykon will kill him or worse when he learns how he has been manipulating him... Even the goblins from Gobbotopia will dump him if they learn the truth... I wonder if Rich is going to have a hounded, desperate Redcloak try to destroy the last Gate on purpose in order to reset the world...

[Psyren]

Come on, Redcloak, your display in panels 2 and 3 was just pathetic. You're a near-epic level full caster, and you're being dunked on by someone who's never cast Thor's Might before?

To be fair - that someone is wielding, if not an artifact, a unique weapon (possibly even legacy)?

[Worldsong]

You know, if Oona has listened and understood everything... what reason does she have to not backstab Redcloak like, right now? She isn't even religious, and Redcloak has pretty much admitted that he doesn't care if the world and all goblinoids on it are destroyed because of his Plan...

Mmmm... TMitD is already covertly working against Team Evil, Oona has every reason to turn against Redcloak, and Xykon will kill him or worse when he learns how he has been manipulating him... Even the goblins from Gobbotopia will dump him if they learn the truth... I wonder if Rich is going to have a hounded, desperate Redcloak try to destroy the last Gate on purpose in order to reset the world...

That would be an interesting plot twist. That said I think it's more likely that Oona is going to be more sympathetic towards Redcloak and may also believe that while he's stated that he thinks the Dark One still wins if the world gets destroyed destroying the world is not his actual goal.

[Riftwolf]

You know, if Oona has listened and understood everything... what reason does she have to not backstab Redcloak like, right now? She isn't even religious, and Redcloak has pretty much admitted that he doesn't care if the world and all goblinoids on it are destroyed because of his Plan...

Mmmm... TMitD is already covertly working against Team Evil, Oona has every reason to turn against Redcloak, and Xykon will kill him or worse when he learns how he has been manipulating him... Even the goblins from Gobbotopia will dump him if they learn the truth... I wonder if Rich is going to have a hounded, desperate Redcloak try to destroy the last Gate on purpose in order to reset the world...

Kinda depends on what she heard. If she walked in on Maxrahs speech, it'd be an interesting viewpoint in a spirited debate. If she overheard Redcloak saying he'd sacrifice goblins for the idea of goblins, it'll go downhill for him (or Oona, depending on if he turns on her as well)

[Renegade Paladin]

"With the hitting and the yelling and the more hitting."

[Goblin_Priest]

You know, if Oona has listened and understood everything... what reason does she have to not backstab Redcloak like, right now? She isn't even religious, and Redcloak has pretty much admitted that he doesn't care if the world and all goblinoids on it are destroyed because of his Plan...

Mmmm... TMitD is already covertly working against Team Evil, Oona has every reason to turn against Redcloak, and Xykon will kill him or worse when he learns how he has been manipulating him... Even the goblins from Gobbotopia will dump him if they learn the truth... I wonder if Rich is going to have a hounded, desperate Redcloak try to destroy the last Gate on purpose in order to reset the world...

Desperate hounded Redcloak is a distinct possibility I had not considered before, but "goblins turning on Redcloak" seems a bit far-fetched. He became their leader by /killing/ who he thought was in charge (with the real supreme leader bailing out). It's an evil society who has never really stood up to him in any way before, even when he was sacrificing (when not outright killing) his own by the hundreds and the thousands. They aren't some sort of democracy or moral-based system. Whatever his goal, he's still the strongest known goblin around.

To be fair - that someone is wielding, if not an artifact, a unique weapon (possibly even legacy)?

She's also not a pure cleric, has more martial levels than caster levels I believe. We don't know what kind of armor Redcloak has, but visibly no shield, so his AC may not be godly. All we've seen her to do hit him hard enough to disrupt his spellcasting. He still healed all of her damage with a single (unspecified) spell.

[Particle_Man]

First post! And of course it is about a typo:

There is a doubled word in Maxrah's word balloon in the third panel of the second page: "and and".

best,

saul

I am not sure if that is a typo or just how Minrah talks. She isn’t the best with words.

[Dilvish]

Oona is wise, pretty words are pretty.

Oona and Greyview for the win! These two may end up allying with the Order.

[The_Weirdo]

Oona and Greyview for the win! These two may end up allying with the Order.

Greyview might ally with the Order only because his master did so, because, otherwise, he knows it is ultimately futile to try to avert the end. Nod. Get treat.

[dancrilis]

People seems to think that Oona and Greyview might switch sides - I don't see it.

Oona knows that Redcloak is a cleric of The Dark One in seemingly good standing, she knows the basic plan is to improve the lives of goblinoids, so what of the backup plan kills everyone - the Bugbears risk everything whenever they enter Monster Hollow for reward and greater reward for greater risk seems fairly natural.

Effectively nothing has been said here that has any reason to encourage her to turn on Redcloak (or Xykon) all it has done is confirm that the cleric she is working with is perhaps a bit more fanatical then previously known and frankly when you get down to it all clerics are likely like that.

Oona is a nice character and I like her - but she would murder two unknown humans and feed them to a monster for a treat without batting an eye, she likely pings as moderately evil.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Oona knows that Redcloak is a cleric of The Dark One in seemingly good standing, she knows the basic plan is to improve the lives of goblinoids, so what of the backup plan kills everyone - the Bugbears risk everything whenever they enter Monster Hollow for reward and greater reward for greater risk seems fairly natural.

I brought it up before, but there's no way the clan would have survived this long if simply entering monster hollow is risking everything. It sounds like they've settled into a working pattern rather than taking a wild gamble every single time. Some hunters may die sometimes, that's just the nature of hunting, but it doesn't seem like the monsters will chase them outside the tomb. Oona seems to think it's better than being chased by dwarves.

The clan seems relatively stable- I can't see how this is anywhere near as risky as what Redcloak is trying to do.

[The_Weirdo]

Oona is a nice character and I like her - but she would murder two unknown humans and feed them to a monster for a treat without batting an eye, she likely pings as moderately evil.

I mean, we've seen what supposedly LG people have a history of doing in the OOTS-verse...

[dancrilis]

I brought it up before, but there's no way the clan would have survived this long if simply entering monster hollow is risking everything. It sounds like they've settled into a working pattern rather than taking a wild gamble every single time. Some hunters may die sometimes, that's just the nature of hunting, but it doesn't seem like the monsters will chase them outside the tomb. They seem to think it's a better alternative than being chased by dwarves.

The clan seems relatively stable- I can't see how this is anywhere near as risky as what Redcloak is trying to do.

What Oona knows/recently found out (if she accepts what has been said at face value):
Redcloak would be fine with the world being destroyed if The Plan doesn't work.
The Gods could unmake reality at any point for any reason and she cannot do anything about that (they apparently nearly did it very recently).

Redcloak thinking that the world being destroyed is an acceptable worst case outcome if The Plan doesn't work doesn't change anything in the here and now - especially considering that The Gods might simple wipe them all out later anyway (after all then apparently have done it in the past and frequently).
In fact the potential only way for mortals to be safe from The Gods might be to have a weapon that causes The Gods to avoid starting the conflict - helping Xykon/Redcloak get control of the Gate might now be in the best interests of her Tribe solely to ensure that The Gods cannot move against the world.

[Larsaan]

Oona knows that Redcloak is a cleric of The Dark One in seemingly good standing, she knows the basic plan is to improve the lives of goblinoids, so what of the backup plan kills everyone - the Bugbears risk everything whenever they enter Monster Hollow for reward and greater reward for greater risk seems fairly natural.

Oona said herself that she's only helping Redcloak and Xykon in order to make sure they don't overhunt the monsters in the tomb. She was happy when Redcloak promised her a trade deal with Gobbotopia, but she doesn't seem to care about The Plan itself.

Which isn't to say she'd necessarily turn on RC, but so far she's struck me as someone who puts practicality over lofty ideals.

[dancrilis]

Oona said herself that she's only helping Redcloak and Xykon in order to make sure they don't overhunt the monsters in the tomb. She was happy when Redcloak promised her a trade deal with Gobbotopia, but she doesn't seem to care about The Plan itself.

Which isn't to say she'd necessarily turn on RC, but so far she's struck me as someone who puts practicality over lofty ideals.

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not.

The details of The Plan are not relevant to her and nothing said here seems to change that.

[Ruck]

I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not.

The details of The Plan are not relevant to her and nothing said here seems to change that.

People have said this more than once already, but the fact that Redcloak considers destroying the entire world an acceptable backup plan-- preferable to negotiating with the Good gods, even-- may well be relevant to Oona and her willingness to help.

[The_Weirdo]

People have said this more than once already, but the fact that Redcloak considers destroying the entire world an acceptable backup plan-- preferable to negotiating with the Good gods, even-- may well be relevant to Oona and her willingness to help.

To wit, Oona's position may well boil down to four words:

"I want to live".

At which point, Greyview's would boil down to three.

"Nod. Get treat".

Note: Oona herself says the Dark One gave her species the short end of the stick and her tribe basically lives off of the hunt on the North Pole, away from everything to include the conflict and racism "normal" goblins have to put up with. Her willingness to help Redcloak so far doesn't mean everything is her problem and it certainly doesn't mean she has to put her neck on the line for his plan - a plan that has quite a few severe flaws, at that, and that might very well result in her own sacrifice for a "future" goblin race.

Basically: Oona has been very nice towards Team Evil so far, but she has way less of a dog in this fight and way more reason to change allegiance if her current allies prove willing to sacrifice her.

[Ruck]

Basically: Oona has been very nice towards Team Evil so far, but she has way less of a dog in this fight and way more reason to change allegiance if her current allies prove willing to sacrifice her.

Yeah, I think that's pretty much it.

[dancrilis]

People have said this more than once already, but the fact that Redcloak considers destroying the entire world an acceptable backup plan-- preferable to negotiating with the Good gods, even-- may well be relevant to Oona and her willingness to help.

Redcloak did negotiate - he was offered:
1. Put your own plan beyond use.
2. Cede lands you already have.
3. Cede property you already have.
4. In exchange for 1, 2 and 3 formal recognition of the territory you have already gotten formal recognition of might be delivered by your most hated enemies.
5. The lives of goblins will not be meaningfully improved in the short term (possible ever).
6. Thor will be happy to accept this and might be able to get the other gods onside to rubber stamp it (after the mortals have agreed).

It might be the best offer he could ever hope for but on the face of it it doesn't look like a fantastic offer - and it is one that doesn't seem to benefit Oona's tribe at all.

Oona now knows that both Redcloak and The Gods consider destroying the world as a fine option - so effectively everyone is on the same page except these two dwarves who want Redcloak's help while offering nothing.

[understatement]

I highly doubt Oona would turn on Redcloak immediately - as far as she knows, Redcloak and Xykon are tightly allied together, and there's the fact that the MiTD still follows the two - she simply just won't help anymore.

[The_Weirdo]

Oona now knows that both Redcloak and The Gods consider destroying the world as a fine option - so effectively everyone is on the same page except these two dwarves who want Redcloak's help while offering nothing.

Yeah, unless she didn't hear some part of it, like, by arriving "late" (which wasn't shown), she is aware of that. Which poses the question of why she's still even considering helping them, seeing as, well, she has little to no dog in that fight, or at least not nearly enough of a dog in that fight to accept dying along with the world for it.

[dancrilis]

Yeah, unless she didn't hear some part of it, like, by arriving "late" (which wasn't shown), she is aware of that. Which poses the question of why she's still even considering helping them, seeing as, well, she has little to no dog in that fight, or at least not nearly enough of a dog in that fight to accept dying along with the world for it.

I am not sure what you are saying here.

[The_Weirdo]

I am not sure what you are saying here.

I'm agreeing to your point, but noting that I find it weird if she knows about the whole situation and is still on board with actions that might get her and her village killed for little to no gain.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, essentially, she'll say "a pox on both your houses" and nope out of the whole deal?

[dancrilis]

I'm agreeing to your point, but noting that I find it weird if she knows about the whole situation and is still on board with actions that might get her and her village killed for little to no gain.

One of the things that I have wanted to know (and likely never will) is the story of how Xykon and Redcloak recruited the Bugbears, which might answer the question of why she (and the other bugbears) are working with Xykon and Redcloak - it does not seem to be the same relationship that the Hobgoblins had with Redcloak for instance.

My personal take is that Xykon has largely moved on from random killings since his destruction at the hands of Roy - and Redcloak has also mellowed a bit since the days of becomming the Supreme Leader of the Hobgoblins, so I suspect that it wasn't threats and intimidation or murdering their way to the top.

Instead I suspect that they showed up saw the village introduced themselves, explained that they would be searching it for some villainous scheme and the Bugbears decided they would assist both to get easy hunting done with little risk to actual Bugbears and also to keep an eye on Team Evil to ensure they didn't do anything off the wall and ruin the neighbourhood.

I have the pseudo-makings of a possible theory that the Bugbears are actually the true guardians of the Tomb - so keeping an eye on Team Evil would be even more important, but that is a little far for me to bother expanding it into an actual theory.

[The_Weirdo]

So, essentially, she'll say "a pox on both your houses" and nope out of the whole deal?

That is often the second most sensible thing innocents caught in the crossfire can do, yes. The first is often ensuring both houses get the pox.

[Darth Bobo]

I will call this now: within 3 strips RC will die and go commune with the Dark One . It remains to be seen if he will come back reformed, with a vengance or if he will be cast into oblivion...

[BriarHobbit]

This was great! The action and the dialogue are so good. Oona is not a dummy. She now knows Red Cloak's true agenda; I would not be surprised if Xykon knows it as well.

[Sesharan]

Honestly, the idea that Oona would be "betraying" Redcloak and Xykon is kind of weird to me, because I never really got the sense that she was properly on their side in the first place. She was perfectly clear from the very beginning that the only reason she's going into the dungeon with them is to curb the depopulation of the village's primary resource.

She's got no investment in seeing the Plan succeed, but she doesn't have the power to send Team Evil packing. Accepting them and guiding them is the only path she has for her village to survive. But the arrival of the Order changes that status quo and gives Oona and her village a couple more options.

Of course, the Order does have to demonstrate that they have the power to compete with Team Evil for those options to be valid. And they also have to make a convincing argument that stopping the Plan would be more beneficial to the village than letting the plan continue, which even now I would say is still somewhat up in the air. But one or two more encounter/debates should do the trick on that score.

[Clistenes]

Desperate hounded Redcloak is a distinct possibility I had not considered before, but "goblins turning on Redcloak" seems a bit far-fetched. He became their leader by /killing/ who he thought was in charge (with the real supreme leader bailing out). It's an evil society who has never really stood up to him in any way before, even when he was sacrificing (when not outright killing) his own by the hundreds and the thousands. They aren't some sort of democracy or moral-based system. Whatever his goal, he's still the strongest known goblin around.

This isn't about democracy or morals or anything... Redcloak is going to get them killed, every one of them, for the sake of some hypothetical future goblins... if that's not a good reason to rebel, regardless of alignment or ideology, I don't know what could be so...

What Oona knows/recently found out (if she accepts what has been said at face value):
Redcloak would be fine with the world being destroyed if The Plan doesn't work.
The Gods could unmake reality at any point for any reason and she cannot do anything about that (they apparently nearly did it very recently).

Redcloak thinking that the world being destroyed is an acceptable worst case outcome if The Plan doesn't work doesn't change anything in the here and now - especially considering that The Gods might simple wipe them all out later anyway (after all then apparently have done it in the past and frequently).
In fact the potential only way for mortals to be safe from The Gods might be to have a weapon that causes The Gods to avoid starting the conflict - helping Xykon/Redcloak get control of the Gate might now be in the best interests of her Tribe solely to ensure that The Gods cannot move against the world.

Durkon has said that the gods are so scared that they will destroy the world if Redcloak carries on with the Plan, and Redcloak's only argument against that is "they don't have the spine to do that..." He admits that he is blackmailing the gods, he believes that they are scared, but he thinks that they won't destroy the world to stop him because reasons...

In short, Redcloak thinks that the gods will let themselves be unmade by the Snarl rather than killing mortals...

Oona is an skeptic, irreligious person who lives in a hellish place (so bad they have to challenge deadly dungeons for enough resources to survive) and who feels that even the Goblin patron deity is no good... she has every reason to believe the gods are *******s who will kill mortals for their own sake...

If Oona does believe that the gods are willing to destroy the world in order to save themselves, then she should think that Redcloak's Plan has 100 % chances to get all bugbears killed...