OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread

[Sebastian]

You know, if Oona has listened and understood everything... what reason does she have to not backstab Redcloak like, right now? She isn't even religious, and Redcloak has pretty much admitted that he doesn't care if the world and all goblinoids on it are destroyed because of his Plan...

Mmmm... TMitD is already covertly working against Team Evil, Oona has every reason to turn against Redcloak, and Xykon will kill him or worse when he learns how he has been manipulating him... Even the goblins from Gobbotopia will dump him if they learn the truth... I wonder if Rich is going to have a hounded, desperate Redcloak try to destroy the last Gate on purpose in order to reset the world...

if you add a Fallen-from-Grace status (TDO remove his Crimson Mantle status) he would essentially be an anti-Miko

That would be some epic-level irony.

[Sebastian]

Oona and Greyview for the win! These two may end up allying with the Order.

Well, if/when Belkar die they'll need a new Evil ranger.

[Sebastian]

That is often the second most sensible thing innocents caught in the crossfire can do, yes. The first is often ensuring both houses get the pox.

two problems with that. one, Xykon is an undead and pox-immune (and Redcloak/Durkon can cast remove disease anyway) and two, with Xykon neutrality is not an option. To paraphrase from SOD "there are two kind of bugbears. The kind that works for me, and the kind that die in horrible suffering".

[Metastachydium]

None too surprisingly, I'm with dancrilis here.

Durkon has said that the gods are so scared that they will destroy the world if Redcloak carries on with the Plan, and Redcloak's only argument against that is "they don't have the spine to do that..." He admits that he is blackmailing the gods, he believes that they are scared, but he thinks that they won't destroy the world to stop him because reasons...

In short, Redcloak thinks that the gods will let themselves be unmade by the Snarl rather than killing mortals...

Big Purple does not intend to actually release the Snarl, and the gods know that would not make much sense.

Oona is an skeptic, irreligious person who lives in a hellish place (so bad they have to challenge deadly dungeons for enough resources to survive) and who feels that even the Goblin patron deity is no good... she has every reason to believe the gods are *******s who will kill mortals for their own sake...
If Oona does believe that the gods are willing to destroy the world in order to save themselves, then she should think that Redcloak's Plan has 100 % chances to get all bugbears killed...

She lives in a hellish place because dwarves chased her people away from the habitable parts. Some time later around came a bald green guy in a red cloak claiming that there is a way to make the world a better place for all goblinoids. When Oona remarked that the bugbears have it harder than the rest, this nice green guy conceded the point and offered her village concrete help via establishing economic ties with a nation which has real potential for prosperity once the world is safe for goblinoids. Oona seemed to like the idea.
Later yet, around came two dwarves (the old enemies of her people) and they told the green guy something really improbable with the green guy retorting he's got no reason to believe them, and, in theory, he is not afraid of that scenario.
Just because the gods care little about her village, she does not have to believe that it is a 100% certainty that they will actually destroy the world unless ”goblinoids acknowledge that they are equal enough and finally learn their place”.

[dancrilis]

Durkon has said that the gods are so scared that they will destroy the world if Redcloak carries on with the Plan, and Redcloak's only argument against that is "they don't have the spine to do that..."

To which Minrah has said that the gods have destroyed the world a bazillion times already.

So either Durkon is correct and The Gods are scared, or Minrah is correct and destroying the world is routine for them (or both but sounds hard to believe).

So Oona could believe that:
a) The Plan will lead to the gods destroying the world out of fear and so should be stopped to save her people.
b) The Gods destroy the world all the time and The Plan might be the only thing that can stop them, and so it must continue to save her people.
c) Neither 'a' or 'b' is something she can verify or really control and so she should just live her life as she has always done.
d+) other.

Nothing in Durkon's, Minrah's or Redcloak's arguement has changed anything for Oona, other then to let her know that The Gods might destroy the world on a whim and that Redcloak is fine with that - which she probably knew already.

In short, Redcloak thinks that the gods will let themselves be unmade by the Snarl rather than killing mortals...

No he doesn't - The Plan is not to attack The Gods, merely to threaten them into a series of 'minor' concessions, and Redcloak has no idea what those concessions even are.

[Worldsong]

Oona gives the impression of not being bothered too much by her current life but I think that's more a case of her having an optimistic and cheerful personality. And while pessimists might be more focused on the problems an optimist doesn't have to be oblivious to them. So Oona could actually have a strong investment in a plan which improves things for her tribe even if she's more willing to trust Redcloak than the Dark One, Redcloak being the one standing in front of her and directly telling her that her tribe's issues will be addressed.

[Metastachydium]

To which Minrah has said that the gods have destroyed the world a bazillion times already.

So either Durkon is correct and The Gods are scared, or Minrah is correct and destroying the world is routine for them (or both but sounds hard to believe).

So Oona could believe that:
(…)
b) The Gods destroy the world all the time and The Plan might be the only thing that can stop them, and so it must continue to save her people.

Good reasoning.
The Plan must continue!

[Fyraltari]

When discussing Oona’s loyalty, it’s worth remembering that Team Evil can probably wipe her entire tribe out and she’s most likely aware of that.

[ebarde]

I don't think Oona particularly seems to care about morality, I think she's sorta like what Grayview is to the monster in the dark but to Redcloak in a way. Probably has spent too long not being able to worry about anything but survival where she seems to be just sorta going with everything as long as it doesn't rock her boat too much.

[pendell]

I don't think Oona particularly seems to care about morality, I think she's sorta like what Grayview is to the monster in the dark but to Redcloak in a way. Probably has spent too long not being able to worry about anything but survival where she seems to be just sorta going with everything as long as it doesn't rock her boat too much.

Do we have any definitive statement of her alignment? So far , I'm leaning towards chaotic neutral for both her and Grayview. There's still room for both chaotic evil or neutral evil, but I don't recall her doing anything that would specifically put her in that end of the alignment pool .

ETA: I don't see Oona switching sides ... at least, not yet. To quote from Return of the King, for a character in a similar situation ...

But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too.

While Oona may not think about it much, the fact of the matter is that there's a lot of racial hatred between bugbears and humans/dwarves/elves. Selling out her leader to help people who would kill her as soon as look at her doesn't seem like a winning proposition.

It is a wrench, for most characters, to turn against their own families and religious leaders on behalf of aliens whom they have only just met. I think Oona would need to be convinced that Redcloak was acting in such a way as to get her and other bugbears killed. I don't think the words of enemy soldiers will convince her unaided; she would have to see the problem for herself. By then, of course, it will be far too late for her to do anything.



Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Metastachydium]

Do we have any definitive statement of her alignment? So far , I'm leaning towards chaotic neutral for both her and Grayview. There's still room for both chaotic evil or neutral evil, but I don't recall her doing anything that would specifically put her in that end of the alignment pool .

How about trying to hunt down two random humans so that she can feed them to a Monster travelling with (and, as Oona believes, serving) big-league evil folks? She was slightly upset afterwards, but only because the humans escaped and she found that an embarrassing failure.

[Fyraltari]

It’s also telling that she assumes the Monster in the Dark has having a master rather than being a free agent. She clearly doesn’t see pets (even obviously sapient one’s like Greyview) as equals.

[JonahFalcon]

It's interesting to hear compared to what Redcloak promised Oona in 1038.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html

[Ionathus]

All this talk about Oona's allegiances feels like a long-shot to me.

Oona has always struck me as an enjoyable foil to bounce off of MitD and Redcloak, giving them a new person to interact with and show off their sparkly new (or old) personalities. She mentions going along to make sure Monster Hollow isn't depleted, but she doesn't really seem to have that big of a stake in the overarching fight.

This "spirited exchange of ideas" dialogue just solidifies that for me: this isn't her fight, and she's perfectly happy being a bystander.

Not every character wants to meticulously suss out the theological justifications of their god's High Priest. Three priests fighting each other and yelling cosmic mumbo-jumbo probably doesn't mean as much to Oona as it does to the priests in question. Even the parts she can understand (e.g. "The world will blow up if you keep going!") might sound conceptual, or metaphorical, or like a big theological point that she doesn't need to expend mental energy on because The High Priest has it covered, and that's good enough for her. She has already stated she doesn't care much for big-picture goblinoid stuff, especially because she doesn't truly feel that things will change that much for the North Pole bugbears no matter what.

I know it's a far-out proposal to make on this forum full of debate-and-discussion types like us, but it's possible Oona just doesn't want to care about all the god stuff. Why not take Redcloak's word for it, and save her mental energy for other things?

[ReaderAt2046]

While I find the distinction between « demons are evil because they’re made of it, therefore it’s okay to kill them » and « goblins are evil because it’s in their blood to be, therefore it’s okay to kill them » to be academic at best, I will say that an important difference between stomping on the roach and killing a mortal is, if my understanding of D&D cosmology is correct, that the roach isn’t actually dead in any meaningful sense and can come back to the material plane in the same way they came before.

Except goblins are not <<evil because it's in their blood to be>>. These particular goblins are evil because they were raised in an evil culture, just like, say, the humans of Tarquin's army. They could have been good, if they had been properly raised and taught, just as O-Chul was saved by that unnamed Sergeant. Other goblins elsewhere may very well be Good, and a significant number probably are. That's the entire point Rich has been trying to make, that saying that a sapient race is biologically predestined to Evil is wrong.

[Fyraltari]

Except goblins are not <<evil because it's in their blood to be>>. These particular goblins are evil because they were raised in an evil culture, just like, say, the humans of Tarquin's army. They could have been good, if they had been properly raised and taught, just as O-Chul was saved by that unnamed Sergeant. Other goblins elsewhere may very well be Good, and a significant number probably are. That's the entire point Rich has been trying to make, that saying that a sapient race is biologically predestined to Evil is wrong.

And my point is that making a distinguo between goblins and demons on that point is absurd.

Edit:
I thought that was obvious from the post I was replying to really.

[understatement]

Not every character wants to meticulously suss out the theological justifications of their god's High Priest. Three priests fighting each other and yelling cosmic mumbo-jumbo probably doesn't mean as much to Oona as it does to the priests in question.

This is such a funny description.

***

The impression I got from Oona was that it's not her fight, so she won't care.

[dancrilis]

The impression I got from Oona was that it's not her fight, so she won't care.

So you think she is Minrah's evil opposite*.

... actually they do have a lot of similarities now that I think about it.

*edit: or I suppose Minrah would be her good opposite, as Oona was there first.

[Ionathus]

So you think she is Minrah's evil opposite*.

... actually they do have a lot of similarities now that I think about it.

*edit: or I suppose Minrah would be her good opposite, as Oona was there first.

Minrah definitely cares more than Oona, as evidenced by the verbal and physical beatdown against Redcloak!

Maybe a better comparison is the crew of the Mechane -- they're not technically the Good Guys, and they have their own goals, but they'll work alongside the Good Guys out of a mutual self-interest. And they'll leave the big important hero stuff to the heroes.

[The_Weirdo]

When discussing Oona’s loyalty, it’s worth remembering that Team Evil can probably wipe her entire tribe out and she’s most likely aware of that.

Maybe, but, then, she seems rather cheerful about dealing with them, no?

[dancrilis]

Minrah definitely cares more than Oona, as evidenced by the verbal and physical beatdown against Redcloak!

That would be the opposite point.

Oona: Encourages the MitD to revert to how he used to be.
Minrah: Encourages Belkar to continue down the path he is walking.

Oona: Doesn't really care about the goals of the group she has joined - only helping because it seems better for her people then not doing so.
Minrah: Takes an active interest in learning about the goals of the group she has joined - helping because she believes it is the right thing to do.

Oona: Apathetic on the divine conflict and her god in general.
Minrah: Gave up Valhalla to assist with the divine conflict and is in awe of her god.

I was going to include another one about how they both have a somewhat unique way of expressing themselves at times - but couldn't word it quite right.

[Ionathus]

That would be the opposite point.

Oona: Encourages the MitD to revert to how he used to be.
Minrah: Encourages Belkar to continue down the path he is walking.

Oona: Doesn't really care about the goals of the group she has joined - only helping because it seems better for her people then not doing so.
Minrah: Takes an active interest in learning about the goals of the group she has joined - helping because she believes it is the right thing to do.

Oona: Apathetic on the divine conflict and her god in general.
Minrah: Gave up Valhalla to assist with the divine conflict and is in awe of her god.

I was going to include another one about how they both have a somewhat unique way of expressing themselves at times - but couldn't word it quite right.

Ah, I see what you mean -- fair point!

Though all this talk about opposites is giving me flashbacks...

[Fyraltari]

Maybe, but, then, she seems rather cheerful about dealing with them, no?

She has had no reason not to so far.

[The_Weirdo]

She has had no reason not to so far.

If I had to work under duress for two people on a project I disagreed with, I'd not be half as cheerful as she is. That said, if she's only finding out now that their plan risks the world, it will make sense for her to remain with them only if she gets way less cheerful, no?

[Tvtyrant]

That would be the opposite point.

Oona: Encourages the MitD to revert to how he used to be.
Minrah: Encourages Belkar to continue down the path he is walking.

Oona: Doesn't really care about the goals of the group she has joined - only helping because it seems better for her people then not doing so.
Minrah: Takes an active interest in learning about the goals of the group she has joined - helping because she believes it is the right thing to do.

Oona: Apathetic on the divine conflict and her god in general.
Minrah: Gave up Valhalla to assist with the divine conflict and is in awe of her god.

I was going to include another one about how they both have a somewhat unique way of expressing themselves at times - but couldn't word it quite right.

In addition, the reason the Bugbears live in monster hollow is they were repeatedly attacked by the dwarves, so they have old school beef.

[Skull the Troll]

I'm agreeing to your point, but noting that I find it weird if she knows about the whole situation and is still on board with actions that might get her and her village killed for little to no gain.

She trusts Redcloak as the leader of all goblinoids on the planet. When you trust a source rather than judging the information itself you're always at risk for this sort of thing.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Do we have any definitive statement of her alignment? So far , I'm leaning towards chaotic neutral for both her and Grayview.

Beast must always respect master, is way of things.

That's one of the most lawful things I've seen in comic.

[Ionathus]

If I had to work under duress for two people on a project I disagreed with, I'd not be half as cheerful as she is. That said, if she's only finding out now that their plan risks the world, it will make sense for her to remain with them only if she gets way less cheerful, no?

Who says she's under duress?

It's entirely possible Team Evil arrived and the bugbears went "These guys want to explore Monster Hollow. Let's make sure they don't completely ruin it! Oh also, they're pretty powerful. " without ever actually fearing for their lives.

And why would they? The green man High Priest greeted her as a fellow goblinoid. Their goals are in alignment. That's all she needs to know.

[The_Weirdo]

Who says she's under duress?

It's entirely possible Team Evil arrived and the bugbears went "These guys want to explore Monster Hollow. Let's make sure they don't completely ruin it! Oh also, they're pretty powerful. " without ever actually fearing for their lives.

And why would they? The green man High Priest greeted her as a fellow goblinoid. Their goals are in alignment. That's all she needs to know.

Because, if she heard what Redcloak said about being willing to destroy Oona's tribe to get a new possible life for hypothetical goblins of the next world, their goals stopped aligning then and there given the context.

[pendell]

How about trying to hunt down two random humans so that she can feed them to a Monster travelling with (and, as Oona believes, serving) big-league evil folks? She was slightly upset afterwards, but only because the humans escaped and she found that an embarrassing failure.

Fair point. Even so,

They're not random humans. They're obviously paladins of the Sapphire Guard, a group which, so far as we know, is at war with all goblinoids everywhere.

They are enemy soldiers, to be killed on sight. If the situation was reversed , I doubt the paladins would have hesitated to kill her. They wouldn't have fed her to a monster, of course. But given the end result is death in any event, I'm not sure that this is quite as horrible as it would be in the southlands. This is the pole , after all. Protein is scarce and they make use of everything.

I'll still grant that feeding an enemy to a monster is an evil act, but I don't think they're quite out of the running for some variant of neutral just yet. I think we also have to recognize there are degrees of evil ;however evil Oona and Grayview are , I suspect they are still nowhere as deep in the alignment pool as Belkar, Redcloak, and Xykon.

ETA: Reading the strips again , I don't think Oona's thoughts on this are so abstract. She's not attacking them as a soldier against other soldiers; she's acting more like a hunter who allowed a quarry to escape. To her, humans are creatures to hunt. Given their environment and circumstance, I find this a reasonable outlook for either an evil or a neutral creature living up here. Polar Bears are neutral , after all, and they kill human beings in the real world in just those environments for just those reasons.

Fun real-life tip: Polar Bears are one of the only species in the world which will hunt humans for food . Most animals are a bit afraid of humans, and will fight in self-defense or if enraged. But they don't actually try to eat people. Polar Bears do.


Respectfully,

Brian P.