OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread

[Jasdoif]

I do actually believe that the suggestion that Redcloak could be replaced by a whole bunch of lower level goblinoid clerics is one of the more reasonable suggestions since it's less of an asspull (doesn't require unknown factors or diminishes Redcloak's status as the strongest cleric in the world).

It does require unknown factors: That spell slots too weak to hold ninth-level spells are still powerful enough effectively restrain the Snarl, that the ritual Thor has in mind doesn't explicitly require a ninth-level slot, that coming up with a new/altered ritual doesn't exceed the time constraint before the Snarl gets out (itself an unknown factor)....

[Worldsong]

It does require unknown factors: That spell slots too weak to hold ninth-level spells are still powerful enough effectively restrain the Snarl, that the ritual Thor has in mind doesn't explicitly require a ninth-level slot, that coming up with a new/altered ritual doesn't exceed the time constraint before the Snarl gets out (itself an unknown factor)....

All right, let me rephrase it then: it doesn't require the addition of a new character or entity that we've never heard anything about and which would seem to serve zero purpose in the story other than to undermine Redcloak's presence in the story.

We know that there are a lot of goblinoid clerics so the question is about whether they can pull it off rather than whether they even exist in the first place.

[masamune1]

Plot twist- that's actually Xykon cosplaying as Oona.

[RatElemental]

It does require unknown factors: That spell slots too weak to hold ninth-level spells are still powerful enough effectively restrain the Snarl, that the ritual Thor has in mind doesn't explicitly require a ninth-level slot, that coming up with a new/altered ritual doesn't exceed the time constraint before the Snarl gets out (itself an unknown factor)....

It just requires that a lot of not quite drops of purple quiddity can add up to a drop of purple quiddity.

I know Rich doesn't really care about the rules, but the rules governing how rituals work actually back me up here. In fact you'd only need 4 3rd level slots to exceed the relative amount of ritual power a 9th level one has.

[understatement]

Plot twist- that's actually Xykon cosplaying as Oona.

And Greyview would be his worg familiar.

[arverst_aegnar]

It's kinda funny, in a tragic way, how much in opposition Redcloak's methods are to his goals. He's planning on building a treehouse in the tree he just cut down for materials.

I don't think we'd be spending this much time pointing out the (many, many) flaws in Redcloak's reasoning if he's just going to be replaced later on. He's going to have a wake-up call at some point, probably not soon, and then ... Well, i originally considered him irredeemable (not for his actions, but because of his unwillingness to own up to them for what they are), but i've come to believe there's a chance. It's still possible for a plausible, narratively satisfying alternative to Thor's plan to be brought up, but i wouldn't bet on Redcloak not being involved.

[Jasdoif]

It does require unknown factors: That spell slots too weak to hold ninth-level spells are still powerful enough effectively restrain the Snarl, that the ritual Thor has in mind doesn't explicitly require a ninth-level slot, that coming up with a new/altered ritual doesn't exceed the time constraint before the Snarl gets out (itself an unknown factor)....

I know Rich doesn't really care about the rules, but the rules governing how rituals work actually back me up here. In fact you'd only need 4 3rd level slots to exceed the relative amount of ritual power a 9th level one has.

If that was in fact applicable here, any 9th-level slot from any caster would suffice. And further, it would take a completely new epic spell to change the level or number of spell slots...which is why I mentioned "a new ritual".

The ninth-level slot seems more like a component, here.

[Kereea]

I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but I freaking LOVE Oona.

She did a good job at calling out RC and the Dark One back when we first met her, and her hanging back here to allow the "exchange of ideas" to continue keeps that moving. She's no cleric, but she's a good outside view on Team Evil and might (long stretch) be enough to at least rattle Redcloak.

On the other hand, given this is in the final arc, allegedly, and Xykon does have MitD as a trump against Redcloak turning on him, if Redcloak did have an epiphany now would be as good a time as any. And then he dies. And is eaten, preventing rezzing. Which for all we know plays into the IFC's plan, which has gone unmentioned for a good while at this point, tho they seem invested in the destruction of the gates thus far and may wish to free the Snarl. On the OTHER hand, Redcloak getting killed via a machination of Xykon's might piss him off enough for his spirit to try and convince the Dark One to side with the other gods to save the other goblins (if DO would even be willing is up in the air of course)

Honestly one thing I really like about Xykon is how his power and use of MitD as a trump keeps him relevant even though he knows jack all about the truth of the rifts and the Snarl. He's really well done as an unrelated Big Bad.

[Rogar Demonblud]

In retrospect, Durkon should've suggested fixing the Gobbotopia rift as the test case.

[Fyraltari]

It just requires that a lot of not quite drops of purple quiddity can add up to a drop of purple quiddity.

Which is not a given.

[deltamire]

One problem with the idea of the lower level slots adding up to a 9th is that it's, well, based entirely on dnd mechanics. Which, admittedly, is what OOTS is about playing with and criticising, but the actually mechanic of spell slot conversion / equivalent power hasn't really, to my knowledge, been brought up in-comic directly. OOTS has been pretty good about setting down the rules it plays by, so unless we're somehow going to get a full lesson on that info in the next hundred or so pages, it seems unlikely it'll be influencing or replacing the final problem of getting Redcloak to agree.

It also seems exceptionally wasteful of narrative space for the Giant to spend all that time showing his disconnect and deterioration over the comic, including a separate non-mainline book which fleshes him out, and then promptly toss Redcloak out like a misbehaving cat and replace him with some other caster(s). I genuinely don't think Burlew is going to do that.

[Metastachydium]

All right, let me rephrase it then: it doesn't require the addition of a new character or entity that we've never heard anything about and which would seem to serve zero purpose in the story other than to undermine Redcloak's presence in the story.

Right. If Rat Elemental's math is correct, it would require the addition of at least three new characters or entities we've never heard anything about (if Jirix will serve as no. 4) which would seem to serve zero purpose in the story other than to undermine Redcloak's presence in the story.

[KorvinStarmast]

My personal prediction is that this exchange will become a seed of doubt, and I look forward to seeing it bear some fruit down the road.

Likewise.

It's kinda funny, in a tragic way, how much in opposition Redcloak's methods are to his goals. He's planning on building a treehouse in the tree he just cut down for materials.

If Redcloak is destroyed, that certainly pivots the threat to the world as whatever artifact and vessel IFCC have cooked up. More than once in this series, Roy thinks "OK, we are finally on the cusp of saving the world" only to have the rug pulled out from him again." Back in the end of BRiTF, he mentioned "We don't really know what's going on" and Belkar had mentioned that "Someone is yanking everyone's chain." That chain is still being yanked. IFCC and the Inviso Kidnappers have their hands on the chain, among others. Hel was a major chain puller in the last book.

On the OTHER hand, Redcloak getting killed via a machination of Xykon's might piss him off enough for his spirit to try and convince the Dark One to side with the other gods to save the other goblins (if DO would even be willing is up in the air of course)

A different way to get at purple quiddity? Well, TDO told Reddie through Jirix "Don't screw this up." I can see Reddie showing up after being waxed by Xykon and TDO's only comment to Reddie being "I told you, don't screw this up. You screwed it up! No quiddity {soup} for you!"

In retrospect, Durkon should've suggested fixing the Gobbotopia rift as the test case.

How does he get Reddie away from Xykon to contribute to that fix? (We, on the outside, know that if Redcloak betrays Xykon MiTD eats him ... )

[Ionathus]

Honestly one thing I really like about Xykon is how his power and use of MitD as a trump keeps him relevant even though he knows jack all about the truth of the rifts and the Snarl. He's really well done as an unrelated Big Bad.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Of course, I expect that the "MitD was brainwashed to eat Redcloak in event of betrayal" is a Chekhov's Gun, and that it will be fired. However, I give it less than 50/50 odds of actually killing Redcloak. Especially since that was before MitD ever started to think like a Good Guy, he might even resist the effect and choose not to eat Redcloak.

I feel like that brainwashing was mostly to demonstrate that Xykon still doesn't trust Redcloak, and has several aces up his sleeve in case of betrayal. Like Xykon's Astral Fortress, I think it's much more important as an example of Xykon's distrust than it is an actual threat to the story.

Right. If Rat Elemental's math is correct, it would require the addition of at least three new characters or entities we've never heard anything about (if Jirix will serve as no. 4) which would seem to serve zero purpose in the story other than to undermine Redcloak's presence in the story.

Exactly this. The story has established "Recloak casts a 9th level spell in your favor" as the goal. It's the simplest solution. Why not assume that this will be the solution, and that achieving it will simply be difficult?

[Psyren]

I love Oona. If Redcloak dies, can she be the new High Priest?

Given that she's almost certainly a Ranger, I'm guessing not?

[Ionathus]

Given that she's almost certainly a Ranger, I'm guessing not?

Watching The Dark One try to communicate with her as the new High Priest, and getting progressively more frustrated at her blase attitude towards him, would be very amusing, but perhaps more appropriate for a spin-off Marvel Alternate Universe Disney+ show.

[Joe the Rat]

I missed that Worg.

[Meroim]

You hit this one out of the park, Rich.

Great stuff!

[Snails]

All right, let me rephrase it then: it doesn't require the addition of a new character or entity that we've never heard anything about and which would seem to serve zero purpose in the story other than to undermine Redcloak's presence in the story.

We know that there are a lot of goblinoid clerics so the question is about whether they can pull it off rather than whether they even exist in the first place.

If these other clerics were a practical source of purple quiddity at all, then Thor would be a fool for not offer talking to Jirix as a Plan C for Durkon in the case that the last Gate were safe enough but reality here is still an ongoing risk from the four blown Gates plus fifth that should be reinforced. Jirix, after all, would be well motivated to negotiate towards the interests of a city full of living and breathing goblins, and less interested in Redcloak's theoretical musings about how to win.

Tangent...

It is interesting to note how Redcloak fell so deeply down the classic moral chasm of ends justify the means thinking, where theorized benefits in an imagined future are sufficient excuse for any and all unnecessary bloodletting today.

At least when Tarquin did it on a grand scale, he did not pretend to genuinely care about the little people in either the now or the future -- this was a rhetorical weapon against people like Elan who do care.

Redcloak is actually telling himself that his own Plan A is so great for goblins, that it is simply not worth considering alternatives that bring an unexpected ally in on the game.

[PontificatusRex]

Hmm, new thought (for me anyway) - Instead of Redcloak betraying Xykon to save the world, what if the Order ends up allying with Xykon to stop Redcloak from destroying the world? He has made it clear that his number one priority is survival and avoiding the Big Fire waiting for him, after all.

On the other hand, Xykon might prefer the non-existence of being zapped by the Snarl to eternal punishment...

[gatemansgc]

i wonder which periodic elemental redcloak was about to summon?

love how this literal battle is considered a classic bugbear debate technique by oona.

[understatement]

i wonder which periodic elemental redcloak was about to summon?

Sodium, obviously.

***

In regards to getting other goblin clerics, you have to

a) have Thor tell Durkon and/or Minrah of this possibility.
b) have them tell the Order of this possibility.
c) procure some method of transport that has these goblins travel thousands of miles up to the north
d) assume that the Dark One won't pull their spellcasting plug.
e) whoops, not high enough level.

[Snails]

Spoiler: SoD

Show

Of course, I expect that the "MitD was brainwashed to eat Redcloak in event of betrayal" is a Chekhov's Gun, and that it will be fired. However, I give it less than 50/50 odds of actually killing Redcloak. Especially since that was before MitD ever started to think like a Good Guy, he might even resist the effect and choose not to eat Redcloak.

I feel like that brainwashing was mostly to demonstrate that Xykon still doesn't trust Redcloak, and has several aces up his sleeve in case of betrayal. Like Xykon's Astral Fortress, I think it's much more important as an example of Xykon's distrust than it is an actual threat to the story.

I agree because...

Spoiler

Show

(1) MitD eating Redcloak for betraying Xykon, even if it is a magical compulsion, would not be a satisfying moment for MitD, at this point in the story given MitD's character growth so far. It made sense as a threat earlier, given who we believed he was back then. He is becoming his own man, and this looks like backtracking on character growth.

(2) It is unlikely that The Giant would include such an important moment in the story without sufficient Online Comic justification, i.e. revenge for Xykon is to bizarre to understand for someone who has not read the prequel books.

So, while it is still quite possible that the MitD will attempt to eat Redcloak, the most apparent motivation will surely be something that is justified to who the MitD is becoming. In fact, it is highly likely to be a motivation that someone like O-Chul would approve of (even if the tactics may not be very paladin-like).

[RatElemental]

Which is not a given.

Neither is Redcloak getting a heel realization, so I guess we can all just go home. No point speculating what might happen, let's just read the comic and then leave and wait for the next one to be posted.

[Snails]

Sodium, obviously.

You are awesome.

Nobelium is possible, too, but yours is the better answer.

[Roland Itiative]

I have a small question about D&D rules: do Redcloak's healing spells work on those sick burns he's taking?

[Metastachydium]

I agree because...

Spoiler

Show

(1) MitD eating Redcloak for betraying Xykon, even if it is a magical compulsion, would not be a satisfying moment for MitD, at this point in the story given MitD's character growth so far. It made sense as a threat earlier, given who we believed he was back then. He is becoming his own man, and this looks like backtracking on character growth.

(2) It is unlikely that The Giant would include such an important moment in the story without sufficient Online Comic justification, i.e. revenge for Xykon is to bizarre to understand for someone who has not read the prequel books.

So, while it is still quite possible that the MitD will attempt to eat Redcloak, the most apparent motivation will surely be something that is justified to who the MitD is becoming. In fact, it is highly likely to be a motivation that someone like O-Chul would approve of (even if the tactics may not be very paladin-like).

It would also be a good throwback to DCF-Xykon being unable to get the Monster to devour his enemies.

[morikahn]

I just have to say "Hypocritical Hit" is a very clever name for this page.

[Ionathus]

Neither is Redcloak getting a heel realization, so I guess we can all just go home. No point speculating what might happen, let's just read the comic and then leave and wait for the next one to be posted.

This is a false equivalency.

It's one thing to speculate that many weak Goblinoid clerics could combine to reproduce Redcloak's abilities. I disagree with this assumption, but you can definitely still make it, and we can speculate about it.

It's quite another thing to compare that logical jump to the explicitly-stated goal of Thor & Co.

One option ("convince Redcloak to help") has been set up by the comic already. The other option ("multiple unnamed, unknown goblinoid clerics materialize out of nowhere and are convinced to help, despite not having Redcloak's 9th level spell slots") is wild mass guessing. Many, many things need to be assumed in order to get that to work, narratively, and it would still be less satisfying than the "convince Redcloak" plan.

It's totally fair to submit your theory as possible. But it's nowhere near as established as The Order's current goal.

[Ghosty]

...I agree that it's unlikely that Durkon is going to be using Word of Recall, although I disagree with the notion that the protagonists should be disallowed from sacrificing high level spell slots for disengagement opportunities with strict limitations. For me that falls a bit short of the line of 'too convenient for the good guys to have'...

I've thought Refuge might've worked well, when it was just Durkon that needed to be whooshed back to the Order. Have V Scry on the area to know when to break the item and get Durkon back. Having Maxrah (LOL) around complicated things. Great lines from her though. Quite subversive.