Get me arrow damage!

[Human Paragon 3]

Looking for the most arrow damage possible by mundane means (feats and classes). No ToB, no complete champion, everything else is OK. I was thinking the archery style barbarian variant from UA as a base, then working from there (the character is going to be a home-brewed orc, most likely, FYI). I know you forumites know how to get some serious bow damage (person man, I'm looking at you), so any help is appreciated. The way I see it, if your entire combat role is defined as narrowly as "arrow damage," you'd better be able to really pull it off.

Please, no full casting. Half casters like rangers is fair game, but note that mental stats will likely be tanked for STR DEX and CON.

[BardicDuelist]

Rogue/Scout with swift tracker (I think that's it) and greater manyshot could be impressive, although I'm not sure this is the best.

Composite Greatbow with a high Str and the above should be decent.

[arkol]

I belive you mean swift hunter.

Complete scoundrel feat. ranger/scout levels stack for skirmish/favoured enemy.

[SadisticFishing]

Rogue 16/Scout 4 with Swift Ambusher.

Get boots of sidestepping and Improved Manyshot, Improved Skirmish, and a couple of other good feats.

You end up doing 5d6 (7d6 if you move a lot) skirmish damage and 8d6 sneak attack her hit, as well as having the full +15 bab even though you multiclassed. Get a lot of points into UMD and get a thingy of Divine Power, and you own face.

Personally, I'd play it as a Kobold and get Reduce Person, for tactical advantage and +hit. And I just love kobolds.

[Grynning]

There is also the idea of going with a powerful build race (goliath or Half-giant) - bigger bow = more damage. Also, there is a nice progression of Psionic "Shot" feats in the EPH. I would recommend going with a Half-giant Psychic Warrior, and taking Zen Archery (Wis instead of Dex for ranged attacks). Then you can have Dex be a low stat, have a high Wisdom for your psionics, and kick (shoot?) much ass. This avoids the situational nature of both sneak attack and skirmish.
Of course, this may be a bit cheesier than what you were going for, but it is pretty difficult to do a high-damage archer in 3.5.

[Skjaldbakka]

ToB doesn't help with ranged weapons anyway, so no worries there.

[Rad]

Ranger 16/Scout 4 (or other variations) with swift hunter. Note that you'll be able to deal skirmish damage to favored enemies, so you can pick undead, constructs and the like and retain effectiveness. Improved skirmish lets you add yet more damage (+7d6 if you move 20') and multiattack. Get a flaming/shocking/holy/whatever bow and go for it.
For cheese (as cheesy as archers can go) pick the splitting weapon enchantment (Champions of Ruin) to duplicate every arrow as it flies (yes, double damage).

PS: If retraining is allowed, get travel devotion; it's good before you manage to get Improved Manyshot at lvl 12.

EDIT: ToB does have a couple of interesting things; notably some damage boosting stances and ways to move your required 10' (or 20') as a swift action.

[Grynning]

Don't think that swift hunter allows you to deal skirmish damage to things that are immune to it, even if they are favored enemies. Is that in the feat text? (I don't have Complete Scoundrel ATM).

[malcolm]

It does let you deal precision damage to favored enemies.

[Overlard]

Don't think that swift hunter allows you to deal skirmish damage to things that are immune to it, even if they are favored enemies. Is that in the feat text? (I don't have Complete Scoundrel ATM).

Yes.

Filler.

[Rad]

Don't think that swift hunter allows you to deal skirmish damage to things that are immune to it, even if they are favored enemies. Is that in the feat text? (I don't have Complete Scoundrel ATM).

Yes, it is stated out as an additional benefit in the Feat description

[Neon Knight]

There is also the idea of going with a powerful build race (goliath or Half-giant) - bigger bow = more damage. Also, there is a nice progression of Psionic "Shot" feats in the EPH. I would recommend going with a Half-giant Psychic Warrior, and taking Zen Archery (Wis instead of Dex for ranged attacks). Then you can have Dex be a low stat, have a high Wisdom for your psionics, and kick (shoot?) much ass. This avoids the situational nature of both sneak attack and skirmish.
Of course, this may be a bit cheesier than what you were going for, but it is pretty difficult to do a high-damage archer in 3.5.

Yeah, and adds a new situational requirement: Must have a psionic focus. Which is a DC 20 Concentration check (piddly) but requires a full round action (not so piddly.) In addition it caps at +4d6.

Trust me, this won't be cheesy. Psionics is more balanced than spellcasting, and the Psionic Shot Feat line isn't that impressive. A larger bow is usually... what, a 1.5 damage increase on average? I forget exactly, but weapon and weapon size don;t contribute much damage-wise.

[Darrin]

ToB doesn't help with ranged weapons anyway, so no worries there.

Never seen a Bloodstorm Blade chuck a half-dozen greatswords at a target with full Power Attack/Shock Trooper, eh?

[Shishnarfne]

Yeah, and adds a new situational requirement: Must have a psionic focus. Which is a DC 20 Concentration check (piddly) but requires a full round action (not so piddly.) In addition it caps at +4d6.
*snip*

This is why most psionic builds add a couple additional feats: first, Psionic Meditation (gaining psionic focus is now a move action, less trouble, but still not worth giving up a full attack with a bow for me); secondly, Fell Shot (resolve that attack as a touch attack), which is significantly less useful than the melee damage unless you get a Power Attack-equivalent (is there one of these for a bow?).

[Grynning]

There's a feat that lets you Psionically focus as a move action, and I think the Psionic shot tree is a bit better than people give it credit for. I'm thinking of Fell Shot, in particular - resolving the ranged attack as a touch attack can be invaluable against heavily armored opponents, especially at high levels. Since none of the builds here are suggesting you go full BAB, hitting things could be a problem. The other thing to consider is that skirmish and sneak attack only work within 30 feet, if you want to snipe at long range, the psionic shots are a better choice.
Also, Psionic Warrior is ok just to take a few levels in to get psionic feats and a few powers. You could still multi to rogue for sneak attack or scout for skirmish, or ranger for more feats.

Also, a Large Composite Longbow would do 2D6, and at the risk of burning another feat, a Large Composite Greatbow would do 2D8. Remember too that most scout/rogue only builds are limited to a shortbow unless you burn the martial proficiency feat. Even if you don't go with the Psionic thing, and go Ranger/Scout, which may be the best choice presented here, to truly maximize damage output you should be using a large weapon, IMO. Goliaths make great rangers/scouts anyways, so there you go.

[BardicDuelist]

Which is better for damage (and only damage):
Swift Hunter or Swift Ambusher (which is what I meant in my previous post, sorry)? I mean, the non-variable damage that ranger's favored enemy adds is less then if you rolled all ones doing sneak attack, right? Is there some ranger spell that I'm missing that adds buckets of damage to your ranged attacks?

As for "bigger bow=more damage" is the chance for 2-4 more damage really better than Xd6? Sure, its situational, but if we're going for straight damage output, I think the Rog/Sct is the best way to go, my mundane means (feats/classes) and ranger spells.

If the OP wants PWarrior, there are probably better options though.

[cupkeyk]

The real deal breaker is the bab, a ranger/scout could end with 19 BAB at best, 16 at worst. This means three arrows, with full skirmish damage with greater manyshot and all your bow and arrow enhancements bonuses. A rogue/scout will never get past 15 and may get it lower unless you have the partial bab progression. two arrows? not as good as three. It becomes your attack multiplier basically.

CoR has a split arrow spell for rangers, that splits arrows into two in midflight dealing its entire damage twice. There is also Hunter's Mercy or hunter's eye whatever that grants them some SA.

[Lord Tataraus]

I think your best bet is to just go rogue/scout like some else suggested, focusing more on the precision damage than the actual bow damage, then just use a crossbow with crossbow sniper for extra range.

[Grynning]

Again, we're talking about maximizing damage. Also, as I mentioned, having powerful build in no way stops you from taking levels in either Rogue or Scout. If you want to use the Psionics, go Half-Giant. If you don't, go Goliath, and take Exotic WP Greatbow. Once again, you may not get your precision damage all the time, so higher base damage on your bow is a very good thing, especially with Manyshot/Greater Manyshot.

[Neon Knight]

There's a feat that lets you Psionically focus as a move action, and I think the Psionic shot tree is a bit better than people give it credit for. I'm thinking of Fell Shot, in particular - resolving the ranged attack as a touch attack can be invaluable against heavily armored opponents, especially at high levels. Since none of the builds here are suggesting you go full BAB, hitting things could be a problem. The other thing to consider is that skirmish and sneak attack only work within 30 feet, if you want to snipe at long range, the psionic shots are a better choice.
Also, Psionic Warrior is ok just to take a few levels in to get psionic feats and a few powers. You could still multi to rogue for sneak attack or scout for skirmish, or ranger for more feats.

That's still a move action your burning up. 30 feet or more you could have put between you and the enemy. Fell Shot is nice, but I still don;t think you could call it the most bow damage without spells. (And it uses Psionics, which some equate to spells. Well, okay, all it requires is a power point reserve, which you can get through another feat.)

Also, a Large Composite Longbow would do 2D6, and at the risk of burning another feat, a Large Composite Greatbow would do 2D8. Remember too that most scout/rogue only builds are limited to a shortbow unless you burn the martial proficiency feat. Even if you don't go with the Psionic thing, and go Ranger/Scout, which may be the best choice presented here, to truly maximize damage output you should be using a large weapon, IMO. Goliaths make great rangers/scouts anyways, so there you go.

The math does not support your opinion.

Average of 1d8: 4.5
Average of 2d6: 6.5

A bigger bow is equivalent to Weapon Spec. WEAPON SPEC. Weapon Spec is not worth +1 LA under any circumstances.

EDIT:

Again, we're talking about maximizing damage. Also, as I mentioned, having powerful build in no way stops you from taking levels in either Rogue or Scout. If you want to use the Psionics, go Half-Giant. If you don't, go Goliath, and take Exotic WP Greatbow. Once again, you may not get your precision damage all the time, so higher base damage on your bow is a very good thing, especially with Manyshot/Greater Manyshot.

If you aren't getting that precision damage, your base damage will not make up for it. Base damage forms an extremely small part of your overall damage at high levels.

[Human Paragon 3]

What would be the damage output on the scout/rogue?

[Grynning]

If you're putting 30 feet between you and your enemy, you probably are moving out of precision range. I guess the disagreement here stems from my opinion that archers should not be darting around within what is basically melee range of their opponents (30 ft, one move action away). That is not a realistic or smart way to use a bow (I know mechanically it works, but it just seems silly to me). Archers should hang back, far out of melee, and pick people off. So, if the OP wants to John Woo fight with their bow, then yes, Scout is the best choice. However, sniping in the classic sense is still best accomplished with things other than precision damage.
Also, I realized we've been ignoring the Order of the Bow Initiate from Complete Warrior. It gets a precision progression of D8's rather than D6's, and eventually can use it out to 60 ft. Sort of the best of both worlds. So that now gets my vote.

Edit: Actually, their 10th level ability also applies to Sneak Attacks, and it's a full BaB PrC. So Ranger/Rogue, OotBI would seem to have the best overall damage output (+5D8 ranged precision, plus possible sneak attack, plus possible favored enemy). Only bad thing is that the Ranged precision attack takes a standard action by itself, so it can't be combined with manyshot...hmmm...

[Neon Knight]

If you're putting 30 feet between you and your enemy, you probably are moving out of precision range. I guess the disagreement here stems from my opinion that archers should not be darting around within what is basically melee range of their opponents (30 ft, one move action away). That is not a realistic or smart way to use a bow (I know mechanically it works, but it just seems silly to me). Archers should hang back, far out of melee, and pick people off. So, if the OP wants to John Woo fight with their bow, then yes, Scout is the best choice. However, sniping in the classic sense is still best accomplished with things other than precision damage.
Also, I realized we've been ignoring the Order of the Bow Initiate from Complete Warrior. It gets a precision progression of D8's rather than D6's, and eventually can use it out to 60 ft. Sort of the best of both worlds. So that now gets my vote.

The idea is that you hang out at 30 feet (maximum precision damage ranged) Greater Multishotting your foes as they try to chase you down. The movement is to avoid full attacks, which can be pretty nasty.

Sniping not only doesn't scale well damage wise, but is, quite frankly, atypical. The assumed dungeon environment doesn't have much in the way of open spaces, and intelligent foes are unlikely to sit around engaging your meatshields (and thus taking their full attacks). Better to take one or two AoOs and net yourself a dead archer.

Order of the Bow:


That ranged precision? Applies to one attack. Limits you to one attack. No way +5d8 will every stack up to either melee full attacks or the Rogue's 3-4 +10d6 arrows.

[Human Paragon 3]

True, but OoBI only gets is precision damage if you spend a standard action to fire one arrow (I believe).

Edit: Ninja'd
Edit: Double edited Ninja Ninja'd!

[Rad]

The "vanilla" swift hunter (ranger/scout) can move 20' and then manyshot with 19 BAB (3 attacks are usually fine). Each attack deals {base damage}+5d6+2d6, so about 1d8+7d6. Actual damage will be more than that thanks to the equipment, but that is true for any build, so let's just stick to the relevant part.
This is less than a rogue but it can be applied always since it is easier to be able to move than to have someone lose their bonus to AC not to count that 4 points more of BAB mean that you're able to shoot one more arrow with decent chances to hit, 3x7d6=21d6+triple bonus damage (from holy, flaming etc. bow) while 2x10d6=20d6+only twice the bonus damage from equipment.
This is neglecting Ranger spellcasting which is, however, an important part of your class abilities and contains a bunch of useful spells for an archer.

You can pump up Skirmish damage more, but to do so you also have to take about 10 levels of sorcerer spellcasting (sic). It relies on getting into unseen seer and pump up the skirmish damage at the rogue rate leaving behind the bonus it normally gives to AC. If you do it all you get +16 BAB, +9d6 skirmish (+11d6 with improved skirmish) and cast as a level 11 sorcerer (12th, which means 6th level spells, if you take the last level in abjurant champion); the only drawback is that you only get 2 favored enemies, so you might find something that is immune to your skirmish.
You never take a single level of sorcerer by the way: there's a class in Races of the Dragon (name eludes me now) that pumps up your skirmish damage and gives you spellcasting as a sorcerer 1 at level 3. Take 3 levels for +1d6 skirmish, spellcasting and other goodies (like stat increases) and then get into unseen seer for 9 levels.
This whole thing is a bit out of what the OP asked, but after all this build has high arrow damage as Ex abilities; the arcane spellcasting is on top of that so I reckoned I'd post this.

[Chronos]

Just to be clear, do the psi archery feats require that you expend psionic focus, or just that you have it? If the latter, then you just take 20 in the morning when you wake up to gain focus, and then just hold onto it all day. And even if the former, you still get it in the first round of combat, and if you do enough damage in the first round, you don't need it in the second.

[Jasdoif]

The math does not support your opinion.

Average of 1d8: 4.5
Average of 2d6: 6.5

The average of 2d6 is 7. Minimum 2, maximum 12.

[Frosty]

Where are these feats anyways like Improved Manyshot and Improved Skirmish?

[Fax Celestis]

Improved Manyshot is in the Epic Level Handbook. Greater Manyshot is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook and is actually available before Improved.

As for Improved Skirmish, that's in Complete Scoundrel.

I'd recommend taking Mounted Combat/Mounted Archery, riding a flying mount (such as a giant eagle, giant owl, or giant raven), and acquiring the Plunging Shot feat for an extra 1d6. It'll vastly increase your mobility, among other things.

[cupkeyk]

Where are these feats anyways like Improved Manyshot and Improved Skirmish?

Improved Manyshot is in the epic level handbook and it sucks. Greater manyshot is in Expanded Psionics Handbook which is what i assume you are looking. Improved Skirmish for is in complete scoundrel, I think.

*shrug* Throw in Deadeye from dragon Compendium and you get your Dex modifier to damage.