Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

[Anteros]

Because by 2030 men will have ceased to exist.

More seriously I've been teaching myself to default to they instead of he, and it's caused some collateral damage in my ability to gender men.

Yes well...I never thought I'd get the chance to say this, but please respect my pronouns.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yes well...I never thought I'd get the chance to say this, but please respect my pronouns.

Shen I remember. There's no gender notification next to posts on mobile, so if I don't have a lot of time it's up to my memory to avoid they.

[Anteros]

Shen I remember. There's no gender notification next to posts on mobile, so if I don't have a lot of time it's up to my memory to avoid they.

I was kidding. I couldn't possibly care less what you call me.

[Traab]

I was kidding. I couldn't possibly care less what you call me.

You vacuous, toffee nosed, malodorous, PERVERT!

[Anteros]

You vacuous, toffee nosed, malodorous, PERVERT!

Hey! My toffee nose is a medical condition. I can't help it.

[Vinyadan]

I have noticed something: Goblinslayer is a passable Disney villain, and, to be more precise, he is Gaston's equivalent. They both are admired hunters who have gained the respect of the populace, to the point of being the biggest guy in town. Both have to face one failure (Belle refuses, Thac0 gets away) and it eats them inside, because they are slaves to their own myth. Also both rile the people against the protagonists, and put stock into creating an "us vs monsters" divide.

[Willie the Duck]

I have noticed something: Goblinslayer is a passable Disney villain, and, to be more precise, he is Gaston's equivalent. They both are admired hunters who have gained the respect of the populace, to the point of being the biggest guy in town. Both have to face one failure (Belle refuses, Thac0 gets away) and it eats them inside, because they are slaves to their own myth. Also both rile the people against the protagonists, and put stock into creating an "us vs monsters" divide.

Wow there's a callback. Beats sitting on our thumbs until the next update.
I never mentally made this exact comparison*, but he certainly seemed to me like a common young adult adventure villain. He has social levers of control, and wants to get the protagonists. Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland has much the same setup, but is only sometimes trying to kill Alice. Captain Hook and Wicked Witch kinda fit, but there are more 'others' out there not aligned with them, so the heroes are not as isolated. I can't think of any obvious better comparisons. The 'getting' of the protagonist is more law&order, but Goblinslayer also makes a pretty decent Javert analog.
*B&tB and the rest of the 90s Disney renaissance was between my animated Disney-watching childhood and my various parenting roles, so I've seen most of them maybe once

[Anteros]

Hmm...I must have missed the scene where Gaston imprisoned Belle and regularly forced himself on her. That's more the Beast's M.O.

I'd say that pretty much all of the main characters are fairly shallow tropes though. Exceptions would be maybe Fumbles, and Dies.

[Murk]

Hmm...I must have missed the scene where Gaston imprisoned Belle and regularly forced himself on her.

In the Gaston comparison, Belle would be Thac0 (the one who got away), not Kin. I don't think Goblinslayer ever "forced himself" on Thac0, though he certainly imprisoned him.

[Vinyadan]

Hmm...I must have missed the scene where Gaston imprisoned Belle and regularly forced himself on her. That's more the Beast's M.O.

It's possible that we didn't have a chance to see that, because Gaston died first. He certainly didn't know how to take "no" for an answer. He did use bribery to have her dad put in an asylum to force her to marry him if she wanted him freed, so he had already found a socially acceptable way to pull it off.

GS of course seems to operate on a much larger scale than Gaston. Gaston enjoys similar prestige in his small community, but he seems content with his informal power, while GS wants it to be institutionally structured in sight of the polital takeover of a large city.

Also, while Gaston and GS both are slaves to their ambition and myth, Gaston operates on a personal level, while GS imagines himself at the center of a large war between civilizations, humans and sub-humans, and wants to be a myth in both. Which is why, while Gaston pleads for his own life with the Beast, GS wants Thac0 to kill him.

A final observation, which however has more to do with how bad guys rarely die the first time they lose: both Gaston and GS survive defeat, but refuse to change, and so end up killed.

[Kish]

Gaston doesn't rape Belle because he's thwarted. Not because he wouldn't. To suggest otherwise is to fundamentally reject...his entire narrative role.

[Willie the Duck]

Gaston doesn't rape Belle because it is a Disney movie for kids. He tries to coerce her into marriage, which is a similar role.

Regardless, I think Murk has the right of it. Goblinslayer plays a different roll for Kin than for Thac0, and Vinyadan was definitely discussing GS in relation to Thac0. The entire rape issue is a non-sequitor (although again what else do we have to do?). The two stories aren't exactly identical, nor do they have to be. Thac0 has both the Belle and the Beast role (and in their movie the dynamic between them is actually the primary story, with the whole Gaston issue a complication), Gaston dies in confrontation with the Beast while GS eventually dies to side-character Kin (in a fight mostly with Forgath and Minmax, who have a complicated relationship with pretty much all the other characters in their story that doesn't well match anything in B&tB). There are a huge number of differences, but I think the basic framing of Gaston and GS being cut from the same cloth is rather interesting and insightful.

[Daywalker1983]

In this instance the uses are basically interchangeable. I don't believe there was any specific intention behind the phrasing there.

Because by 2030 men will have ceased to exist.

More seriously I've been teaching myself to default to they instead of he, and it's caused some collateral damage in my ability to gender men.

All well and good, i am not a native speaker and hearing "their" evokes a Group of people for me.

[Yuki Akuma]

All well and good, i am not a native speaker and hearing "their" evokes a Group of people for me.

Singular "they" has been a feature of English since at least 1375. They really need to teach it in English classes.

Singular "you" is much more recent (circa 1600s) but nobody ever complains about it for some mysterious reason.

[Anteros]

I don't think they're similar characters at all. Gaston is a blowhard who's so full of himself that he can't even conceive of the idea that someone doesn't want him. Goblinslayer is an actively malicious monster who rapes and murders for sadistic pleasure. They're only similar on an incredibly superficial level.

[Radar]

Singular "they" has been a feature of English since at least 1375. They really need to teach it in English classes.

Singular "you" is much more recent (circa 1600s) but nobody ever complains about it for some mysterious reason.

What was used as a second person singular pronoun before you? I am actually really curious. From some Shakespeare texts I would assume "thou", but was there more to it?

[Fyraltari]

What was used as a second person singular pronoun before you? I am actually really curious. From some Shakespeare texts I would assume "thou", but was there more to it?

English used to have a t-v distinction (using different second person singular to refer to someone with regards to how much respect you are expressing) like many indo-european languages. Specifically it used thou for a casual relation and the plural you for addressing someone formally. This usage spread in imitation of French but was a bit inconsistent and then it died out.

[woweedd]

Gaston doesn't rape Belle because he's thwarted. Not because he wouldn't. To suggest otherwise is to fundamentally reject...his entire narrative role.

Yeah. I mean, he wants to force Belle to marry him and I think we can safely assume it's not cutting the wedding cake he's looking forward to...

[Radar]

English used to have a t-v distinction (using different second person singular to refer to someone with regards to how much respect you are expressing) like many indo-european languages. Specifically it used thou for a casual relation and the plural you for addressing someone formally. This usage spread in imitation of French but was a bit inconsistent and then it died out.

So that's where singular you came from! Some languages actually still use the plural form to indicate respect toward a single person. Others on the other hand (like Polish) use singular third person with some sir/madame word for such situations.

[Keltest]

Yeah. I mean, he wants to force Belle to marry him and I think we can safely assume it's not cutting the wedding cake he's looking forward to...

Honestly, it might actually be the act of having married her rather than any... other possibilities. The prestige of being married and being able to show off his wife could well be what he's actually after here rather than any pseudo-affection he thinks he feels.

[Anonymouswizard]

This usage spread in imitation of French but was a bit inconsistent and then it died out.

I think you just summed up the English perfectly.

Honestly, it might actually be the act of having married her rather than any... other possibilities. The prestige of being married and being able to show off his wife could well be what he's actually after here rather than any pseudo-affection he thinks he feels.

Honestly, do we have any evidence that Gaston isn't asexual? This makes so much sense.

[Fyraltari]

So that's where singular you came from! Some languages actually still use the plural form to indicate respect toward a single person. Others on the other hand (like Polish) use singular third person with some sir/madame word for such situations.

I know, mine does. Like I said, this distinction in address is present in many indo-european languages. Romance languages tend to use the second person singulat plural as a respectful second person singular, Germanic languages tend to use a singular third persons, other language families do other things.

[Kish]

Gaston told Belle he wanted six or seven boys.

(This argument is so goofy.)

[Fyraltari]

Gaston told Belle he wanted six or seven boys.

(This argument is so goofy.)

I don't think Goofy wants to rape anyone.

[Gez]

So that's where singular you came from! Some languages actually still use the plural form to indicate respect toward a single person. Others on the other hand (like Polish) use singular third person with some sir/madame word for such situations.

More properly, it indicates figurative distance. You use t-form with people close to you (such as friends and family), and v-form for people distant to you (such as coworkers, strangers, etc.).

So it can be (and usually is) a form of respect, but it's not just that. For instance, if you use v-form with someone you're usually close to, it pushes them away in a manner of speaking. Inversely, using the t-form with someone you're usually distant to is a way to get in their personal space, so to speak; so it can be friendly or hostile depending on circumstances.

English lost the t-v distinction but the distinction between formal and informal attitude towards people remain. Think of the cliché of a parent chastising their child by calling them by their complete name , that's kind of the same thing.

[Traab]

Honestly, it might actually be the act of having married her rather than any... other possibilities. The prestige of being married and being able to show off his wife could well be what he's actually after here rather than any pseudo-affection he thinks he feels.

Less prestige and more "This is the only woman to ever reject me. SHE MUST BE MINE!" After all, dude had identical, hot triplets, all draped over him at once. If he wanted to marry to have fame and prestige, that would have been the way to go. He just wanted what he couldnt have. Her rejection of him damaged his world view where he is the big man on campus that everyone loves and admires, when suddenly this one girl just ignores and dismisses him? THIS CANNOT STAND! Had she fluttered her eyes at him and sighed in his direction from time to time, he probably never would have even noticed her, other than occasional mockery for her strange habits like reading and knowing things more complicated than how to do laundry and make him dinner.

[Dragonus45]

Honestly, do we have any evidence that Gaston isn't asexual? This makes so much sense.

I mean, he is absolutely Gaston sexual, and while I do think that in his own narcissistic "how could anyone not want me I'm the handsome hero" way he absolutely would be a sex pest, it feels distinctly different from the way Goblinslayer literally fetishizes and sexualizes the the act of forcefully overcoming rejection. Both are **** people, but they are not the same.

Less prestige and more "This is the only woman to ever reject me. SHE MUST BE MINE!" After all, dude had identical, hot triplets, all draped over him at once. If he wanted to marry to have fame and prestige, that would have been the way to go. He just wanted what he couldnt have. Her rejection of him damaged his world view where he is the big man on campus that everyone loves and admires, when suddenly this one girl just ignores and dismisses him? THIS CANNOT STAND! Had she fluttered her eyes at him and sighed in his direction from time to time, he probably never would have even noticed her, other than occasional mockery for her strange habits like reading and knowing things more complicated than how to do laundry and make him dinner.

You know, I've always sort of thought that he was actually interested in her. Mostly because she has odd habits and would be a more interesting person then most of the vapid townspeople who drape themselves over him, but he has no possible way to communicate that because a life as a handsome talented moron has left him totally ill equipped to even conceive of rejection, let along how to actually communicate in any meaningful way about it and he could never actually lower himself or allow vulnerability to learn because it would shatter him. It makes for an excellent contrast to the Beast who frankly didn't even seem to want Belle around outside of feeling like he was obligated to take at least someone prisoner over the trespassing, is so completely vulnerable and incapable of dealing with it he like a giant fuzzy bundle of raw nerves rolling in sand, and ultimately does learn how to reach out for help and express his issues honestly to get help.

[Traab]

I mean, he is absolutely Gaston sexual, and while I do think that in his own narcissistic "how could anyone not want me I'm the handsome hero" way he absolutely would be a sex pest, it feels distinctly different from the way Goblinslayer literally fetishizes and sexualizes the the act of forcefully overcoming rejection. Both are **** people, but they are not the same.



You know, I've always sort of thought that he was actually interested in her. Mostly because she has odd habits and would be a more interesting person then most of the vapid townspeople who drape themselves over him, but he has no possible way to communicate that because a life as a handsome talented moron has left him totally ill equipped to even conceive of rejection, let along how to actually communicate in any meaningful way about it and he could never actually lower himself or allow vulnerability to learn because it would shatter him. It makes for an excellent contrast to the Beast who frankly didn't even seem to want Belle around outside of feeling like he was obligated to take at least someone prisoner over the trespassing, is so completely vulnerable and incapable of dealing with it he like a giant fuzzy bundle of raw nerves rolling in sand, and ultimately does learn how to reach out for help and express his issues honestly to get help.

Im pretty sure that gaston would NOT get along with goblinslayer. He would likely see the guy as far too crude bare minimum. Mainly because while at the barest surface level they might have similar goals, being seen as heroes for protecting their home town, gaston is not the torture maim gore porn fetishist that goblinslayer is. Im honestly unsure how he would view the kin situation. Might consider it disgusting and pointless since the only reason he does it is for his torture porn as both probably have their general pick of willing women if they feel the need. He might even consider it bestiality. She is a monster after all, despite being human intelligent and all. He may just sneer and turn away as he sees more proof the crude bugger needs to get lost but otherwise do nothing about it because "its just a monster"

As for actually being interested in her, I dont think so. He mocks everything she does that marks her as different. That may be what drew his attention, but her rejection of him and her lack of effs to give for his opinion is what made him obsessed with her. I watched the clip where he "proposes" to her. He shows a total lack of knowledge on what she dreams of for her life, assuming its exactly what he wants, despite the ample evidence he has seen that suggests otherwise. Then proposes they marry right now while he has the entire freaking wedding party waiting outside to get things done. (Which he doesnt even tell her about)

[Vinyadan]

Hmm...I must have missed the scene where Gaston imprisoned Belle and regularly forced himself on her. That's more the Beast's M.O.

Returning to this, the reason why there is some overlap is that Gaston is actually a double of the Beast. I believe it was a deliberate intention of the writers. «Once upon a time, in a faraway land, a young prince lived in a shining castle. Although he had everything his heart desired, the prince was spoiled, selfish, and unkind.» Gaston is young, strong, beautiful, admired, skilled, but spoiled, selfish, and unkind.

«Repulsed by her haggard appearance, the prince sneered at the gift and turned the old woman away, but she warned him not to be deceived by appearances, for beauty is found within.»

Simply put, the old woman looks bad. It's about the appearance. She's repelling. The Prince does not consider any other factor when dealing with her.

Now, let's look at Gaston: from the first minute he appears, he declares that Belle is the only girl as beautiful as he, and that that's why he's going after her. It's all about exterior beauty. Belle is very active on an intellectual level: she's curious, investigative, enjoys reading, and is also caring and supportive towards her father, all things that make her an outsider in the village, but also constitute her "beauty found within". And Gaston openly disdains these aspects, repeatedly covering her books in mud and insulting her father.

The hot triplette also shows something about Belle: Belle is an individual. The triplettes are pretty, but they have lost any aspiration for individuality and intellectual autonomy; they are a group of three, but not three different people.

The Beast forces Belle to stay with him as a bargain for her father's freedom. He then learns to love her, and lets her go. Gaston then... also tries to force Belle to marry him through a bargain for her father's freedom! Except she can prove her father isn't insane through the mirror. Gaston then decides to destroy his rival. Incidentally, here it seems to me that it isn't really about Belle, it's about Gaston's need to be the best at everything he does; someone is thwarting his plan, while showing that he's better than Gaston at being liked by Belle? He must be destroyed (and it's certainly important that, by now, Gaston had already started to metaphorically bargain with the Devil to get what he wanted, from corruption and unlawful inprisonment, to leading a lynching mob, shooting a peaceful man in his own home, and figurative and literal backstabbing).

The Beast in his starting position is an early Gaston, but bigger: he is powerful, he actually owns the castle, the people there are his literal servants. As the film moves on, their paths diverge: Gaston doesn't change his objectives or mentality and, instead, starts using increasingly evil means. On the other hand, the Beast, having been proved fallible and being in a very tight spot, has to accept the advice of his servants (who are older than he is, but who also have a lot of different personalities, unlike the villagers), gets to know Belle by engaging with her in discussion, learns from her, and sees her "inner beauty" to the point that he understands on his own that what would make Belle happy is a library, and then he is compelled to let her go to care for her father.
Gaston admits no weakness, and it's what turns him into a monster. The Beast instead is forced to show his fear and vulnerability by desperately hugging the rose when Belle discovers it.

About this whole "inner beauty" thing, I liked that, in the ending, when the Beast turns into the Prince, Belle doesn't just pounce on this suddenly beautiful young man, and instead examines his face until in his eyes she finds the trace of the Beast she loves.

In a way, Goblins also follows the contrast of exterior appearance vs inner beauty with the monster/human divide. But that's something with which everyone except Kin and maybe Ears and Thac0 seems to struggle. Minmax and Forgath start out as killers of monsters, Complains wants to kill Minmax, Vorpal stabs a child, and then we have all the bad guys (GS, Kore, Duv). The wide population is openly racist. No wonder evil is winning... I tried thinking of whether there could be some more parallels with Beauty and the Beast, but I find that the tropes of a D&D world end up overtaking them. Looking for a Beast-Gaston duo, MM for example could be a GS in fieri whose development is suddenly stopped (as he says, he wants to be like him, to promptly thow him out a window as soon as he understands what he really does), but MM, while shallow, selfish, vengeful, and chauvinistic, doesn't really care about his own dignity in front of the community, and is quite the weathercock in general.

About Gaston and GS, I think Gaston would feel envy for GS's hunting skills and would be weirded out by his mores, but Gaston is also cunning and knows how to get something out of people. In other words, I suspect that he would see GS as a resource, like the Asylum chief, assuming he can keep him out of his little kingdom at the village.

[Anonymouswizard]

Note that the Beast and Gaston also swap stances by the end of the film. The Beast begins moving crouched like a beast, but by the middle of his arc is standing and walking straight. But the the final confrontation Gaston becomes crouched and uses his arms to help his movement. It's a very well done sign that they've swapped roles in the story, with the Beast becoming a civilised man and Gaston a savage hunter.

Which, makes Thaco both Belle and Beast. Which kind of fits with Thaco just being a normal goblin at first before becoming an adventurer. So I wonder if Goblinslayer wasn't part-golem back when they originally encountered each other.