Goblins XVIII: Being yourself can be dangerous

[Willie the Duck]

You'd imagine with an update pace similar to Goblin's, you'd want to make sure every page you post 'counts' as much as possible in terms of story progress ...

Honestly, I think it depends on whether we think we would have gotten an update if she hadn't decided to put this in.

My guess is that we'd have gotten a relatively meatless page showing that we were back to MM and Kin either way, this one just has a joke that will age as well as some of my Cards Against Humanity cards (because you know Paris Hilton references will always be timely. :-P).

True, but that's something that could be established effectively in, at most, a panel or two. I agree that it's good to re-establish their banter and make it clear that they have fundamentally picked up in mostly the same place but Minmax has grown a bit, but this doesn't even totally work for that because it doesn't feel like Minmax is actually talking so much as the writer is talking through him. (Made worse by the fact that the comparison being drawn doesn't actually work very well; it feels like noticing there are a couple of broad-strokes similarities and then working backward to try to make them feel more profound.)

It feels like a gag that might have worked if the comic had better pacing, but it doesn't, so it doesn't.

The gag is stupid. Marvel has had alternate realities and travel between them since before goblins started (much less when they got to the MoM). The coincidence of both having 'MM' alliteration could have been a reasonable one panel aside (lampshade hanging, if you will). If we are getting this instead of something better, I'd be mad. In the end, I think either way we would have gotten a page that would communicate:

1. We are back with Min Max and Kin
2. They aren't still at the leash-event plotline or the 'why are you here' moment
3. MinMax is being his 'unintelligent, but generally cagey and with-it' version and not his 'pants on head stupid' incarnation.
4. They are talking, casually, and MinMax is comfortable enough to poke fun at Kin.

He seems to still be doing stuff as found from a quick Twitter search, I hope he's living his best life. (That being said, allusions to medical problems make me worried for him. But I worry a lot naturally.)

From information he shared with his blog so I don't feel creepy repeating:
He lost something like 150 lbs after his doctor said he was in first stage heart failure. It always sounded like he'd turned his health around, but dealing with the repercussions would be a lifelong thing. I believe he moved to Canada because it would be an easier dual-citizenship path than for Wednesday to come to the US, here's hoping the Canadian medical system does him right.

[Dragonus45]

Sheesh. Anyone remember Websnark? You Had Me And You Lost Me? I feel like I'm getting there.

I miss Websnark (and Wednesday). They were just small-scale enough and personal enough that they almost seemed like internet friends. I hope whatever they have gone on to doing has been fruitful and fulfilling.

God I miss websnark, I still follow their patreon though. He still publishes various short stories and novellas in the Justice Wing universe. Given the work he has consistently put in at such high quality incidentally Eric and Wednesday Burnes-White are also on my list for people who I wish could get a fraction of the internet fame and money that has attached itself to Eli.

He seems to still be doing stuff as found from a quick Twitter search, I hope he's living his best life. (That being said, allusions to medical problems make me worried for him. But I worry a lot naturally.)

It's been bad, but not life threatening. A nasty combo of things that are probably too much to go into here but that he has gone into a lot of detail about for those who care to look it up.

From information he shared with his blog so I don't feel creepy repeating:
He lost something like 150 lbs after his doctor said he was in first stage heart failure. It always sounded like he'd turned his health around, but dealing with the repercussions would be a lifelong thing. I believe he moved to Canada because it would be an easier dual-citizenship path than for Wednesday to come to the US, here's hoping the Canadian medical system does him right.

That's one medical crisis behind the current one I believe.

[SaintRidley]

Most pop culture reference age like fine milk near a fireplace.

Considering this one is already 4 months since the film released and over a month since it hit general streaming on Disney+, it's already aged that much. Just... wow.

I cannot think of a single strip of any major comic which manages to be this pointless, this bad at actually getting a joke across, and bad at maintaining any level of narrative pace. It's quite uniquely bad in that way.

[-D-]

I enjoy Elis' dungeons. The traps and mechanics can be quite interesting. E.g. Shield of wonder, Maze of Many.

But her art and writing leave much to be desired.

Edit: Whoever said to prefer Goblins over Unsounded, I really have to wonder... Why? The biggest complain about Unsounded is that I have no complaints. People just don't want to talk about train that's on time, has great pacing, and art. And characters. People want to discuss latest train wreck.

[Dragonus45]

I enjoy Elis' dungeons. The traps and mechanics can be quite interesting. E.g. Shield of wonder, Maze of Many.

But her art and writing leave much to be desired.

Edit: Whoever said to prefer Goblins over Unsounded, I really have to wonder... Why? The biggest complain about Unsounded is that I have no complaints. People just don't want to talk about train that's on time, has great pacing, and art. And characters. People want to discuss latest train wreck.

Personally my biggest issue with Unsounded was just not actually liking a lot of the characters. They could all go fall in a pit and I wouldn't mind. Well, not the one undead guy. He is cool.

[Kish]

Of all the things that one can criticize about the comic, I am boggling at the shamelessness of the "please buy me a new $4500 drawing rig" post. I don't know what Rich Burlew or any other webcomic spends on their drawing computer--possibly because none of the others I know are quite so overt about passing those costs along to any readers who are willing to pay them.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Of all the things that one can criticize about the comic, I am boggling at the shamelessness of the "please buy me a new $4500 drawing rig" post. I don't know what Rich Burlew or any other webcomic spends on their drawing computer--possibly because none of the others I know are quite so overt about passing those costs along to any readers who are willing to pay them.

I mean, I can't even find anything that would price a new tablet that highly; you have to be buying something obscenely powerful for that kind of cost, even factoring in the conversion to Canadian currency. Like, really top-end stuff seems to sit around $1500 USD, which is around $2000 Canadian, and that's when you're just buying something blazingly expensive and price is no object. My wife has an excellent, huge drawing tablet that didn't cost nearly that much. (I want to say it was a fifth of that, at most.)

But, you know, she's apparently raised that much money and then some, so... I don't even know? Maybe someone thought this would make the comic update faster again? I can only guess.

[Lurkmoar]

Personally my biggest issue with Unsounded was just not actually liking a lot of the characters. They could all go fall in a pit and I wouldn't mind. Well, not the one undead guy. He is cool.

Same. I noped out fairly quick. To be honest, permanent death would probably be a blessing for Undead Duane.

[Anonymouswizard]

Of all the things that one can criticize about the comic, I am boggling at the shamelessness of the "please buy me a new $4500 drawing rig" post. I don't know what Rich Burlew or any other webcomic spends on their drawing computer--possibly because none of the others I know are quite so overt about passing those costs along to any readers who are willing to pay them.

A quick Google when it happened suggested that we'd be looking at 1.5k-2k for a top-end one, adding a few hundred for a bespoke stand and other goodies brings us to about 2.5k, which is I believe what she actually asked for?

Other webcomic creators seem to have two benefits here: being better with money, and a faster update schedule. Even The Giant has more frequent updates, even if only about twice as fast. So it wouldn't shock me if their income was a bit higher, they put a bigger proportion into savings, and they specifically set aside money to regularly upgrade. Elli's post makes it seem like she's used the same tablet throughout the entire comic, while it wouldn't surprise me if Dan Shive has replaced his/their setup every two to five years (keeping the old one as a backup, of course).

[Murk]

Whoever said to prefer Goblins over Unsounded, I really have to wonder... Why? The biggest complain about Unsounded is that I have no complaints.

Oh no, I definitely did not mean that I prefer Goblins over Unsounded.

I said Goblins (especially at the earlier strips) was more accessible. That's just a generous way of saying Goblins is simpler. It's easier to read. Unsounded is quite heavy, right?
That's not a criticism of Unsounded but it is a compliment of Goblins.

[Gez]

Unsounded is quite heavy, right?

The themes explored include terrorism, slavery, racism and religious intolerance, totalitarian population control, human sacrifice, war, rape, child trafficking; and thanks to the fantasy element we can add body horror and magical mind control in the mix. So yes.

As much as Goblins can be perceived as overindulging in its protagonists' suffering, things are still so much worse in Unsounded.

[Kish]

A quick Google when it happened suggested that we'd be looking at 1.5k-2k for a top-end one, adding a few hundred for a bespoke stand and other goodies brings us to about 2.5k, which is I believe what she actually asked for?

You don't have to ask me if what I said is accurate, you know. You can check for yourself.

[Vinyadan]

There really isn't a clear upper limit for how much a drawing tablet costs. The first factor is Wacom vs knockoffs, then you have size, whether it's just a screen or an actual all-in-one PC (in which case you might also have different components), and finally whether it has complete touch or just stylus functionality (and the kind of stylus functionalities).

3,500 USD is a lot of money, but not too much. A Wacom 24 inch with touch capability would have been 2,800 USD, add in 400-500 USD for a Wacom stand, it's already 3,200-3,300 USD.

[Keltest]

There really isn't a clear upper limit for how much a drawing tablet costs. The first factor is Wacom vs knockoffs, then you have size, whether it's just a screen or an actual all-in-one PC (in which case you might also have different components), and finally whether it has complete touch or just stylus functionality (and the kind of stylus functionalities).

3,500 USD is a lot of money, but not too much. A Wacom 24 inch with touch capability would have been 2,800 USD, add in 400-500 USD for a Wacom stand, it's already 3,200-3,300 USD.

And apparently Elli lives in the middle of Nowhere, Canada right now? So shipping costs are fairly high.

[Anonymouswizard]

You don't have to ask me if what I said is accurate, you know. You can check for yourself.

I was at work and didn't have the time to check. It's somewhat separate to my main point, that she apparently had no plan in place for when her drawing tablet failed (and it was going to fail eventually). It's at least in theory important enough to how she makes money that having no contingency for it is really weird.

[Keltest]

I was at work and didn't have the time to check. It's somewhat separate to my main point, that she apparently had no plan in place for when her drawing tablet failed (and it was going to fail eventually). It's at least in theory important enough to how she makes money that having no contingency for it is really weird.

When you don't have several thousand dollars in reserve cash, making such a contingency is somewhat less than feasible.

[-D-]

The themes explored include terrorism, slavery, racism and religious intolerance, totalitarian population control, human sacrifice, war, rape, child trafficking; and thanks to the fantasy element we can add body horror and magical mind control in the mix. So yes.

As much as Goblins can be perceived as overindulging in its protagonists' suffering, things are still so much worse in Unsounded.

Other than child sacrifice and totalitarian population control, Goblins has the same if not similar themes. Although rn Unsounded does feature a lot more of them, owning to the nature of their main villain (Elemental of Pain 'n Suffering).

Personally my biggest issue with Unsounded was just not actually liking a lot of the characters. They could all go fall in a pit and I wouldn't mind. Well, not the one undead guy. He is cool.

That's a really curious take. I thought Sette would resonate with more people. I always found her more interesting than Duane, because he kind of made up his mind. Her choice between her Da and Duane was the interesting part of the series.

[Traab]

A quick Google when it happened suggested that we'd be looking at 1.5k-2k for a top-end one, adding a few hundred for a bespoke stand and other goodies brings us to about 2.5k, which is I believe what she actually asked for?

Other webcomic creators seem to have two benefits here: being better with money, and a faster update schedule. Even The Giant has more frequent updates, even if only about twice as fast. So it wouldn't shock me if their income was a bit higher, they put a bigger proportion into savings, and they specifically set aside money to regularly upgrade. Elli's post makes it seem like she's used the same tablet throughout the entire comic, while it wouldn't surprise me if Dan Shive has replaced his/their setup every two to five years (keeping the old one as a backup, of course).

On the giants update schedule, I have to wonder, how much goodwill does he have just by having this popular forum website connected to it? I mean, when I stopped to think about the time between updates it made me wonder if id really be reading comics like goblins or OotS if I wasnt here talking about them and being reminded of their existence so often. As an example, I was a big read of Least i Could Do. But I just stopped reading it at one point and forgot it existed till a random facebook post reminded me and I had to binge the full covid mess plus a bit before to catch back up. I left around the time he bought a cow and named it Robert Moo-ler. /facepalm

[Fyraltari]

On the giants update schedule, I have to wonder, how much goodwill does he have just by having this popular forum website connected to it? I mean, when I stopped to think about the time between updates it made me wonder if id really be reading comics like goblins or OotS if I wasnt here talking about them and being reminded of their existence so often.

I can't talk for anybody else, but I regularly check webcomics like Theia Mania or YAFGC, that have an update schedule on par or worse than that of OOTS, that I don't think are as good and don't have specific forums (or least none that I frequent). So yeah, I think that even without the forums, the Giant would enjoy more goodwill than Elli's. His stuff is just that better than hers.

[The Glyphstone]

People still donate to the Patreon for Gone With The Blastwave, which is currently at something like 3 years since it updated.

[Divayth Fyr]

People still donate to the Patreon for Gone With The Blastwave, which is currently at something like 3 years since it updated.

I wonder how many of them are people who actually forgot they have that pledge going on...

[Anteros]

On the giants update schedule, I have to wonder, how much goodwill does he have just by having this popular forum website connected to it? I mean, when I stopped to think about the time between updates it made me wonder if id really be reading comics like goblins or OotS if I wasnt here talking about them and being reminded of their existence so often. As an example, I was a big read of Least i Could Do. But I just stopped reading it at one point and forgot it existed till a random facebook post reminded me and I had to binge the full covid mess plus a bit before to catch back up. I left around the time he bought a cow and named it Robert Moo-ler. /facepalm

I think a lot of the Giant's goodwill comes from the fact that we know part of his update schedule is due to physical health issues. There's also the fact that he never asked for money by telling his fans he'd update more often if they donated, which is something Goblins has done several times.

[Anonymouswizard]

I think a lot of the Giant's goodwill comes from the fact that we know part of his update schedule is due to physical health issues. There's also the fact that he never asked for money by telling his fans he'd update more often if they donated, which is something Goblins has done several times.

Yeah, it's a mixture of 'I can see why his injury affects his ability to draw' and the fact that every time he's asked for money he's delivered (the reprint Kickstarter and the Patron for the forum). For me personally the ability to easily navigate to individual strips also helps, when I did forget to check for a while I was able to pick up where I left off.

[Daywalker1983]

Yeah, it's a mixture of 'I can see why his injury affects his ability to draw' and the fact that every time he's asked for money he's delivered (the reprint Kickstarter and the Patron for the forum). For me personally the ability to easily navigate to individual strips also helps, when I did forget to check for a while I was able to pick up where I left off.

Elli has clearly health issues too, so that's not it for me. If you go back to the first Goblins thread, it's already the Signature mixture of being merk, airing Personal laundry and begging for money and attention. I remember something about treading water with the Kids on his shoulders. The difference is one of quality and Also professionalism, which Elli lacks badly.

[Steven]

Update schedules don't really matter to me. The thing that matters is that I started reading goblins when I was much younger and think it's fair to say that as I've gotten older and consumed more media, I started to see how flawed the writing (and even to a certain extent the art) is. I think that Elli probably makes great TTRPG campaigns, but I think her ability to write good stories without the feedback loop of players is lacking.

Rich on the other hand, is writing a great story. It is funny, it makes you think, it examines subjects that are tricky and handles them well. (mostly, and when there are missteps Rich addresses them, learns, and moves forwards AFAIR anyway)

Elli doesn't do that. And then on top of that she does things like the Tempts Fate debacle where she takes advantage of her fans over and over. I get that making money as a web comic artist is hard, but again we can compare and contrast Rich and Elli and see one person doing it in what I would consider a moral way and another doing some pretty dubious things...

So why am I still here reading goblins after... I don't even know how long it's been? Well over a decade anyway.

Because I want to know what happens to Dies Horribly. I used to want to know what happens with Forgath and MinMax and the rest, but I don't really any more. The consistent mediocre writing has made me not care about any of the other characters. But Dies Horribly still lives in my brain as I perceived him when I was much younger, before I added the filters that come from consuming media and examining why I like certain things and don't like others.

EDIT: Oh, and I don't think Rich would waste one of his pages on a dumb pop culture reference that isn't funny and will only become less funny over time

[Anonymouswizard]

EDIT: Oh, and I don't think Rich would waste one of his pages on a dumb pop culture reference that isn't funny and will only become less funny over time

I'd bring up the Final Fantasy VI strip, but at least that was years after the game came out. Otherwise yeah, most such references in OotS are maybe two panels long, the only other page long reference I can remember is the Harry Potter one.

[Dame_Mechanus]

I'd bring up the Final Fantasy VI strip, but at least that was years after the game came out. Otherwise yeah, most such references in OotS are maybe two panels long, the only other page long reference I can remember is the Harry Potter one.

And let's be fair, the FFVI strip wasn't about making a joke regarding how dumb the property in question was; it actually established things about the world in the process, to boot. (Airships are a thing and not unusual in this world, for example.) Plus it changed Elan's wardrobe forever after, so technically he's still cosplaying as Locke all these years later.

At least he's more useful in a party.

[Vinyadan]

Unrelated, but I was thinking: narratively, it's odd that the characters are going back home to their village, because their narrative home at the start of the story was destroyed in the attack, and, normally, part of the story is that the heroes have to find their own home afterwards (which generally equates bringing back balance).

And then it struck me. The whole male population of the tribe has been wiped out. The men must get back to repopulate. And the men are Ears, who is gay; Vorpal, who is asexual; Thaco, who is impotent; and Complains, who is a short-tempered barbarian-demon.

Oh boy, the tribe is in for some fun time.

[Fyraltari]

Unrelated, but I was thinking: narratively, it's odd that the characters are going back home to their village, because their narrative home at the start of the story was destroyed in the attack, and, normally, part of the story is that the heroes have to find their own home afterwards (which generally equates bringing back balance).

And then it struck me. The whole male population of the tribe has been wiped out. The men must get back to repopulate. And the men are Ears, who is gay; Vorpal, who is asexual; Thaco, who is impotent; and Complains, who is a short-tempered barbarian-demon.

Oh boy, the tribe is in for some fun time.

I don't think the whole adult male population of the Cryptic Fall was at the warcamp. And even if so, the tribe probably has children already.

[Willie the Duck]

I don't think the whole adult male population of the Cryptic Fall was at the warcamp. And even if so, the tribe probably has children already.

Yeah, I didn't get that impression either. Wasn't there all sorts of different warcamps around the tribe's territory, and isn't their point to draw enemies to them instead of the village (meaning their society is set up with the expectation that the warcamp might get wiped out)?

Mind you, the idea might be 'not all of the warcamps will get wiped out,' and that might not be the case this time.