"Customizing your Origin in D&D"

[Evaar]

Optimization-minded folks will need to remember that we are deeply in the minority of D&D players. For the majority of D&D games, this will be fine.

But wow they didn't even try to balance this, huh? I honestly think we'd be better off doing away with racial stat bonuses entirely, instead offer more flavorful options that realize the fantasy of a race and potentially synergize with certain class options. But that's basically going to require a new edition.

[da newt]

Seems to me this makes everything more power gamey. It will be hard to beat a Dwarf w/ floating +2/+2 and armor, or 1/2 Elf for floating +2/+1/+1 unless you are looking to capitalize on a specific race's other capabilities and a floating +2/+1 (YuanTi for example).

It's just a bit more power creep.

If I were creating this adjustment, I'd limit all races to a floating +2/+1 or the specific ASI's as written. For my simple mind, this would be more fair and still plenty customizable.

[LudicSavant]

Move over Iron Hobgoblin Wizard.
there is a new kid in town...

Mountain Dwarf Wizard +2 INT, +2 Dex

Proficiency with Light and Medium Armour

When I did my own version of a 'racial attribute swap' rule, I had a line about how if you got more than +2 / +1, and you decided to swap, you got +2/+1 instead, precisely to cover cases like this.

That said, Mountain Dwarves probably aren't going to break the game right in half. Remember that Githyanki already got an Intelligence bonus, Medium Armor, and arguably better racial features than a Mountain Dwarf. They just had an unwanted Strength bonus to go with that Intelligence bonus.

Mountain Dwarves will still lack shield proficiency, which means they'll only have 17 AC without spending a feat -- a fairly narrow gain over the 16 AC of 16 Dex+Mage Armor, or 14 Dex+Warforged or Simic Hybrid.

Ultimately, the new rule is going to create a little power creep, but not so much that I think it outweighs the benefits of letting people finally play orc wizards without feeling like they're getting kicked in the shins for it.

If I were creating this adjustment, I'd limit all races to a floating +2/+1 or the specific ASI's as written. For my simple mind, this would be more fair and still plenty customizable.

Hey, that's exactly what I did!

The exact wording of my houserule was "Any race other than Variant Human or Yuan-Ti may exchange their racial stat bonuses for +2 / +1 any."

Been using it for a long time now.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Really, all this does is add Mountain Dwarf and Half-Elf to the list of races that are good for each class. It does open up multiple concepts, of course, but with the exception of certain very MAD classes very little power is gained here. Ultimately, this is a unilaterally good change: it broadens viable concepts while causing negligible power increase.

You can already do that. You can play a Half Orc Wizard that dumps Strength and puts the highest rolled scored in Int.

Only if you are playing with the rolling variant rule, which is extremely bad for interparty balance and should not be used. If you are playing by normal rules, without this method a Half Orc cannot start with an Intelligence higher than 15. The game is balanced around that being too low for viability.

[da newt]

Just for the record, the above means I'm just as smart as Ludic.

[OldTrees1]

These rules accomplish their goal.

Do they accomplish my goals? No, but I don't fault them for that. Most of the 5E racial modifiers have insufficient reason to exist. Them being mutable is weird but their existence was weird. But it makes me think of things like a Troll's species bonus to Con or a Giant's species bonus to Str. Those also don't exist in 5E because racial options are limited to mostly near-human species.

[Cicciograna]

Only if you are playing with the rolling variant rule, which is extremely bad for interparty balance and should not be used. If you are playing by normal rules, without this method a Half Orc cannot start with an Intelligence higher than 15. The game is balanced around that being too low for viability.

Irrelevant. What jaappleton said is that with the floating +2 he can play a Half Orc Wizard that goes "against the grain". My reply is that he can already do that, dumping Str to 8 (that becomes a 10 owing to the Half Orc racial traits) and putting 15 to Int. Is this going "against the grain" of Half Orcs? yes it is, because his Half Orc Wizard will be weaker and smarter than the average Half Orc (who would have a Strength of 12 or 13 and an Intelligence of 10 or 11, if one wants to use the non-elite array).

In addition to this, your remark about the fact that Half Orcs can't start with an Int higher than 15 applies to a lot of races, the Half Orc here is just a specific example. This doesn't mean that the Half Orcs (or other races) are worse Wizards, but rather that other races are better Wizards...initially. The final score for all the races is still Int 20, this just means that Half Orcs & co. have to invest more resources to reach that objective.

[LudicSavant]

Just for the record, the above means I'm just as smart as Ludic.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Is it the intention of this rule to make all other races strictly inferior to the mountain dwarf ubermensch?

The should be a tradeoff: a +2 should become a +1 if it floats.

Or maybe turn the +2 Charisma into one of the heritage alternate features.

[Segev]

The players aren’t NPCs. The NPC Wizard has a solid change to be an elf, sure. But players often play extraordinary characters, so they go against the grain.

Sure, but now they won't have any trends amongst PCs. Frankly, there's no believable reason elves should be wizards and orcs barbarians when the races have no differences.

There was a Living L5R campaign a decade or so ago. It highlighted something that 3e L5R did well with its not-quite-balanced schools: it caused there to be a preponderance of PCs who fit their clan archetypes. The Isawa Shugenja was one of the most powerful shugenja schools in the game, so a plurality of shugenja were Isawa, and the Phoenix Clan's prominence as "the Shugenja Clan" was upheld. The Doji Courtier was one of the most effective Courtier schools in the game, so the Courtly Crane Clan had a plurality of the Courtiers. The trends in the Clans were that they had a good mix of types of characters, but the schools that were just a bit more powerful at their schtick belonged to the Clans that were supposed to have the most and best of that sort of Samurai.

It's not "going against the grain of your race" if your race has zero reason not to be whatever it is you're playing, and you're at least as good at it in all respects as somebody who comes from a race whose grain you'd be going WITH.

Irrelevant. What jaappleton said is that with the floating +2 he can play a Half Orc Wizard that goes "against the grain". My reply is that he can already do that, dumping Str to 8 (that becomes a 10 owing to the Half Orc racial traits) and putting 15 to Int. Is this going "against the grain" of Half Orcs? yes it is, because his Half Orc Wizard will be weaker and smarter than the average Half Orc (who would have a Strength of 12 or 13 and an Intelligence of 10 or 11, if one wants to use the non-elite array).

In addition to this, your remark about the fact that Half Orcs can't start with an Int higher than 15 applies to a lot of races, the Half Orc here is just a specific example. This doesn't mean that the Half Orcs (or other races) are worse Wizards, but rather that other races are better Wizards...initially. The final score for all the races is still Int 20, this just means that Half Orcs & co. have to invest more resources to reach that objective.

This is how you "go against the grain of your race." You are unusually bright for an orc, or unusually frail for a dwarf. You still have the racial mods in question, and lack the racial boosts to what you ARE good at, but you're only a +1 or so behind the optimal racial choice.

But the fact that you had to make that sacrifice of that +1? That hedges people away from the choice you made. That makes you go against the grain, and makes your character more interesting because you made a choice to sacrifice power for that uniqueness. Not a lot, but it's there.

Now, "oh, a half-orc wizard? That's nice," is the appropriate response. Not, "Wow, a half-orc wizard? How unusual!"

[Dr. Cliché]

Races are now more customisable than ever! Just look at all the variety available:

Spoiler

Show

[Amnestic]

Now, "oh, a half-orc wizard? That's nice," is the appropriate response. Not, "Wow, a half-orc wizard? How unusual!"

I expect most class/race combos will still be "along the grain" regardless for two reasons:
1) It's a variant rule in a separate book. Some players may not even look at it, it might not be available, maybe the DM doesn't like it.

2) Aesthetic's still a big deal. Even if a mountain dwarf monk is mechanically stronger than a human (which, yes it is) I fully expect that a great deal of players would still want to play a human monk over a dwarf monk because while dwarf monks certainly do exist and yes there's examples of people playing them, when you think "wuxia kung fu master"...you don't think dwarf. You think a tall race, not stout one. And people will want to play something that fits the aesthetics. Half-orc wizards are still going to be rare, not the norm. They'll be *more* common, but I doubt they'll be *common*. Elf wizards though? Dime-a-dozen even after this.

[Dark.Revenant]

Mountain Dwarves are top tier rogues now too. +2 to dex and +2 to con, free longbow proficiency.

Half elves are even more competitive now than they used to be, since their +2 floats too now. They can have +2 to dex so elvish accuracy can get them 18 dex at level 4, while still putting the two +1s wherever they want. I can't think of any reason you would take a full elf over a half elf now, they are strictly superior.

It's just not well thought out.

Think of it this way:

High elves, compared to half-elves, give up a +1 in their tertiary stat and one skill proficiency. In exchange, they receive Trance, a Wizard cantrip, three martial/simple weapon or tool proficiencies, and one simple weapon or tool proficiency.

You can argue that one is a better deal, but it's definitely not a strict superiority.

[Segev]

I expect most class/race combos will still be "along the grain" regardless for two reasons:
1) It's a variant rule in a separate book. Some players may not even look at it, it might not be available, maybe the DM doesn't like it.

2) Aesthetic's still a big deal. Even if a mountain dwarf monk is mechanically stronger than a human (which, yes it is) I fully expect that a great deal of players would still want to play a human monk over a dwarf monk because while dwarf monks certainly do exist and yes there's examples of people playing them, when you think "wuxia kung fu master"...you don't think dwarf. You think a tall race, not stout one. And people will want to play something that fits the aesthetics. Half-orc wizards are still going to be rare, not the norm. They'll be *more* common, but I doubt they'll be *common*. Elf wizards though? Dime-a-dozen even after this.

Only point 1 will matter, I'm pretty sure. If these rules are in play, as long as the stereotypes are in mind at all, we'll see a disproportionate number of "exceptions that go against the grain."

Just like every Drow is Drizz't.

[Amnestic]

Only point 1 will matter, I'm pretty sure. If these rules are in play, as long as the stereotypes are in mind at all, we'll see a disproportionate number of "exceptions that go against the grain."

Just like every Drow is Drizz't.

Who's 'we'? I mean, with how long games can go on for it's what, a half-dozen characters a year maybe? Rough guesstimate. 'cos take your average set of players I doubt more than one or two of those characters would be truly "against the grain". Anecdotal assessment of my experience, of course.

Are all your players the type to go full powerplay? Is your DM going to make any adjustments or just let it fly as is? Assuming the DM's not you, of course, in which case you can just houserule it to how you like.

[Hecuba]

I get the info I can. It’s far from everything, I’m not able to call up Crawford and ask what’s going on.

"Jeremy, I just got finished with a meeting on the internet. The GITP forum randos would like a detailed status update on D&D. All of it.
Please get on that, they're threatening to dress up in Lorraine Williams cosplay and use a flashmob to take over the Renton office."

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'm kind of afraid to weigh in on this, because it feels to me like the motivation is real world. (And real world discussions are a more serious forum rules matter than thread necromancy and spam combined.) It's the age old "why don't women get a strength penalty?" debate. If you state that orcs, an intelligent and human-like race, all excel in physical matters rather than matters of the mind you sort of leave open the possibility that this could apply to real world groups as well. They had already started removing ability score penalties from races and adding more diverse features rather than steering every race in a single direction, this feels like the next step in that.

I feel like I'm still inside the forum rules lines here, and I will stop here as well. If I make any more posts in this thread it will be to discuss the game play and role playing implications of the change, without any regard to the underlying reasons. But I kind of had to add the disclaimer that I don't think those reasons matter very much for this decision first.

[Dork_Forge]

Who's 'we'? I mean, with how long games can go on for it's what, a half-dozen characters a year maybe? Rough guesstimate. 'cos take your average set of players I doubt more than one or two of those characters would be truly "against the grain". Anecdotal assessment of my experience, of course.

Are all your players the type to go full powerplay? Is your DM going to make any adjustments or just let it fly as is? Assuming the DM's not you, of course, in which case you can just houserule it to how you like.

Something to bear in mind is that you don't have to 'go full powerplay' to put your stats in the most beneficial things for your class. It's a very very basic part of optimising that the majority of players, including new, understand. The only place I can see there actually diversity for the most part is the +1 going to a stat like Cha if the player wants to be social without being a Cha class.

Meanwhile this opens a whole bunch of samey bleh to people that enjoy powergaming, espcially if they're using point buy. Then theirs the wider balance concern, the only thing vaguely entering the balance equation for Wizards was the d6 hit die and lack of armor. Suddenly stat synergistic ways to access armor are clear, want an easy way to tackle that pesky squishiness? Just be a Half Orc and pop back up if you get dropped.

Then there's the whole can of worms this opens with the Dragonmark races, Jorasco Halfling now can give said Wizard a +2 Int and access to healing spells.

This was not thought through in the least in terms of balance, maintaining niches or well any other way.

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm kind of afraid to weigh in on this, because it feels to me like the motivation is real world. (And real world discussions are a more serious forum rules matter than thread necromancy and spam combined.) It's the age old "why don't women get a strength penalty?" debate. If you state that orcs, an intelligent and human-like race, all excel in physical matters rather than matters of the mind you sort of leave open the possibility that this could apply to real world groups as well. They had already started removing ability score penalties from races and adding more diverse features rather than steering every race in a single direction, this feels like the next step in that.

I feel like I'm still inside the forum rules lines here, and I will stop here as well. If I make any more posts in this thread it will be to discuss the game play and role playing implications of the change, without any regard to the underlying reasons. But I kind of had to add the disclaimer that I don't think those reasons matter very much for this decision first.

Oh, the motivation for this drivel is absolutely driven by a desire to cater to the professionally-offended.

Because some absolute cretins on the internet decided that Orcs = PoC. Of course, there was no actual evidence for this beyond the blatant racism of those actually making the accusation.

However, every large company has apparently undergone a mandatory spine-removal, so rather than calling these people out on their racism and absolute nonsense, WotC instead bent the knee, first making orcs no longer evil, just misunderstood; and then removing racial bonuses and penalties altogether. Because why would different species with markedly different appearances also have different characteristics?

And that, children, is how WotC ended racism forever.

Hooray!

[cutlery]

Because some absolute cretins on the internet decided that Orcs = PoC. Of course, there was no actual evidence for this beyond the blatant racism of those actually making the accusation.

There's a long tradition of pointing out the races and cultures Tolkien introduced/modified are more or less traditionally racist in nature; going back to his letters from the 50's. That's not new.

[Stangler]

I generally assume the rules on stats are the way they are because they wanted the rules to be simple. Sometimes when you are trying to write a book simplicity wins out more than it should.

Personally I have always used a house rule where you can move one stat point away from the preset stat points and you can only get a +2 if you started with it. The idea here is that it is really the +2 that makes a certain race unique but allowing a +1 anywhere means that any race can get a 16 main stat with point buy or standard array.

The new way is simpler and more generous. /shrug

[137beth]

I like the idea, though I am much less wild about the execution. Any race that was balanced around having good racial features but non-synergistic ability score bonuses is now better than it was before, and vice versa. I would probably have liked it more if this variant were built in to the core rules from the beginning (and if that happens for 6e I'd be happy with that).

[JackalTornMoons]

Just wanted to give my quick first thoughts on each race if unattached to ability score:

I'll bold some standouts

• Aarakocra - Now low-level arcanes get to fly
• Aasimar (Fallen) - The fear DC is still attached to charisma
• Aasimar (Protector) - Flight and radiant damage useful for basically anyone
• Aasimar (Scourge) - Barbarian grappler w/ aura damage
• Bugbear - Bugbear Hexadin
• Centaur - Go Paladin and be a centaur that rides a horse
• Changeling - The origin customization rules state that you can't put the +2 and the +1 into the same stat, but I wonder if they want that to apply to Changelings. I assume there'll be a Sage Advice incoming
• Dragonborn - Breath Weapon DC being attached to CON was weird since they didn't get CON before. Maybe more Barbs?
• Dragonborn (Draconblood) - Forceful presence pretty solid on anybody that wants to talk
• Dragonborn (Ravenite) - Rogues will like the free reaction attack
• Dwarf (Duergar) - 4 weapon profs and a tool that you can swap around. Free enlarge and invisibility along with all the other dwarf stuff
• Dwarf (Hill) - Everybody loves more HP
• Dwarf (Mark of Warding) - Seems like a solid Arcane Trickster
• Dwarf (Mountain) - I feel like we're gonna see a lot of these guys :) Lots of swap options and of course the +2/+2
• Elf (Drow) - Priestess of Lolth
• Elf (Eladrin) - Lots of swaps and free misty step mean you could do pretty much anything
• Elf (High) - Lots of melee that could use a free booming blade
• Elf (Mark of Shadow) - Arcane Trickster
• Elf (Pallid) - Artificer maybe?
• Elf (Sea) - Having a swim speed and being able to breathe water would be useful for any class in a seafaring campaign
• Elf (Shadar-kai) - Necrotic resistance and your resistance to all damage misty step great for everyone
• Elf (Wood) - Mobility for everybody
• Firbolg - I'm kinda liking ranger for this
• Genasi (Air) - Float up and shoot things
• Genasi (Earth) - Ranger flavor
• Genasi (Fire) - Martials would enjoy the fire resistance and CON-based spells
• Genasi (Water) - Grapple and drown 'em. Acid resistance is gravy.
• Githyanki - Greatsword prof is less fun now
• Githzerai - Artificer/Non-trickster rogues like the mage hand
• Gnome (Deep) - Rise of the martial gnomes??? Gnome cunning is so good
• Gnome (Forest) - Gloomgnomer
• Gnome (Mark of Scribing) - I'm starting to realize I like Artificer/EK/AT for all of the marked races
• Gnome (Rock) - I like the other gnomes better
• Goblin - All sorts of classes would like to disengage/hide as a BA
• Goliath - Probably not much of a change but they do get a skill prof and stone's endurance is useful on anyone
• Half-Elf - Swarm of half-elf builds incoming buckle up. +2/+1/+1, 2x skill prof, 3x languages
• Half-Elf (Aqua) - Swim speed situationally great
• Half-Elf (Drow) - Shadow monk
• Half-Elf (Mark of Detection) - Arti/AT/EK
• Half-Elf (Mark of Storm) - Pirate Arti/AT/EK
• Half-Elf (Moon/Sun) - Gotta love that free cantrip
• Half-Elf (Wood) - Zoom zoom
• Half-Orc - Probably not going to change much
• Half-Orc (Mark of Finding) - Free Hunter's Mark. +d4 to Perception. Free spells! Great choice for all sorts of stuff
• Halfling (Ghostwise) - Gotta love Lucky and advantage v frightened
• Halfling (Lightfoot) - Hiding behind your medium buddies is amazing
• Halfling (Lotusden) - Free control spells for martials
• Halfling (Mark of Healing) - Who needs DSS? Other sorcs/wizards going to love this one
• Halfling (Mark of Hospitality) - So much flavor in this one along with all the other amazing halfling goodies. I hope the Cooking feat comes in TCoE too :)
• Halfling (Stout) - Poison advantage and resistance is gravy
• Hobgoblin - Fun things to swap. Can go sorc now
• Human - Uh... swap some languages?
• Human (Mark of Finding) - Half-Orc probably better but its a human with darkvision
• Human (Mark of Handling) - Conjure Animals for any spell list! Paladins can yap with their horsie
• Human (Mark of Making) - Concentrationless Magic Weapon at lvl 1 is fun
• Human (Mark of Passage) - Zoom zoom and Misty step are loved by everyone. Phantom Speed for any caster is fun
• Human (Mark of Sentinel) - Seems tailor made for a tanky EK. Vigilant guardian, free shield, d4 to perception, shield of faith/warding bond
• Human (Variant) - Probably still the optimancers choice for anybody who wants CBE/PAM
• Kalashtar - WIS save adv and resistance to psychic can be super useful in some campaigns
• Kenku - Two skill swaps is nice but probably still only being this for the flavor
• Kobold - Depends on if we get to keep Pack Tactics or not :)
• Leonin - Probably not much of a change although I guess squishies might like the con mod pbaoe frightened
• Lizardfolk - Gloomstalker yes please fits them to a T. Flavorful artificers too :). Dip monk for BA bites?
• Loxodon - Grapple build inc
• Minotaur - Probably not going to change much. Skill swap
• Orc - BA dash toward baddies and 2 skill swaps
• Satyr - 35 ft speed, magic resistance, and 2 skill swaps. Puckswarm incoming
• Shifter (Beasthide) - Skill swap, temp hp, and +1 ac are useful for anybody
• Shifter (Longtooth) - skill swap, temp hp, Let's you get a BA attack without investing a feat.
• Shifter (Swiftstride) - Skill swap, temp hp, temp zoomies and staying away from baddies. Solid on casters
• Shifter (Wildhunt) - No disadvantages on attack rolls against you = BARBARIAN
• Simic Hybrid - Grapple Drowner
• Tabaxi - 2 swaps, climb speed, and zoomies
• Tiefling (Various) - Fire resistance and free spells are both great for martials.
• Tortle - Wizards/Sorcs/Bards all going to have fun with this
• Triton - +1/+1/+1 is interesting but probably not all that useful?
• Vedalken - Tireless Precision on anything is cool.
• Verdan - Skill swap, advantage on wis/cha saves is cool
• Warforged - +1 AC and all the other warforged stuff make these fun for basically anyone
• Yuan-Ti - Magic resistance, poison immunity, unlimited snake friendship, and free Suggestion. Gonna be a popular one (although I think it's banned in AL).

[Theoboldi]

I'm kind of afraid to weigh in on this, because it feels to me like the motivation is real world. (And real world discussions are a more serious forum rules matter than thread necromancy and spam combined.) It's the age old "why don't women get a strength penalty?" debate. If you state that orcs, an intelligent and human-like race, all excel in physical matters rather than matters of the mind you sort of leave open the possibility that this could apply to real world groups as well. They had already started removing ability score penalties from races and adding more diverse features rather than steering every race in a single direction, this feels like the next step in that.

I feel like I'm still inside the forum rules lines here, and I will stop here as well. If I make any more posts in this thread it will be to discuss the game play and role playing implications of the change, without any regard to the underlying reasons. But I kind of had to add the disclaimer that I don't think those reasons matter very much for this decision first.

So, let me get this straight. You commented on this, giving the implication that anyone who disagrees with these changes for thematic reasons leaves their games open to real life racist ideology. But then at the same time, you say that you can't really talk about these things and that nobody should start a conversation about it here?

That strikes me as though you want to have your cake and eat it too. It's a cowardly way of putting forward your ideas, stating what you believe with authority but forbidding any reprieval, even if you did not intend it as such. I do believe we're within forum rules either way right now, I just do despise dishonest discourse of any sort.


As for these changes, they are less than ideal. Even without racial ability modifiers, you still have loads of 'savage' abilities on orcs, emphasizing their 'brutish nature', while elves get loads of cantrips to signify how 'learned' they are. They still are defined as being distinctly different from humans. I just don't see any way to achieve the underlying goal of changes like these without removing races entirely.

[Mikal]

Yeah. Gotta say these are gonna get a big no from me. Not a fan.

[Hellpyre]

I feel like this entire system would have been better served (at least for non-AL play) by being replaced with a couple page section on discourse with your DM about making minor mechanical changes to serve roleplaying goals. In decades of play, I've almost never had trouble in any edtion convincing a DM to let me swap out languages to better fit a backstory, and I've often been able to get 'cultural' stats changed to something that better fit the fluff of a particular game. Certainly, this is something that should have at the very leasy been put out into the wild as UA for a bit so the worst abuse cases (like Mountain Dwarf) could pop up and be evaluated before commiting the rules to an official product.

[rooneg]

Certainly, this is something that should have at the very leasy been put out into the wild as UA for a bit so the worst abuse cases (like Mountain Dwarf) could pop up and be evaluated before commiting the rules to an official product.

I am 100% sure that the authors of this system are aware of what you can do with Mountain Dwarf. Something like 95% of the people who look at these rules immediately start talking about Mountain Dwarf Wizards. This was quite clearly published with the knowledge that people would do this with Mountain Dwarf PCs and that it was an acceptable price to pay for having an exceedingly simple system that still lets people do pretty reasonable amounts of customization.

[Miele]

I'm not excited one bit, honestly. It doesn't make much sense, but it is what it is. I don't play in AL, so in the end... who cares?

I guess I'll allow things that make sense (but I was already doing it), more than anticlimatic, ridicolous race/class combinations: raging barbarian... gnome. 20 Kgs (45 pounds) of cute fury: very World of Warcraft, but I like my D&D table to be more traditional.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Unpopular opinion: Mountain Dwarfs are fine. Good Lord, +1 ability score point and medium armor aren't the end of the damn world.

[Pex]

The floating racial modifiers make Human even more useless. Variant Human is still palpable because the feat is that good.