Contingency: How do I take out my wizard if he goes bad?

[Valcor]

So I have a very happy group of adventurers, well over 5 years into our campaign, and we're doing just swimmingly.

And recently my friend, who is far too intelligent and a bit scheming, who plays the group's wizard (Lv 8, gnome illusionist.), has made funny comments that caught my attention. Like it's going to his head. He is looking forward to ultimate power. Like he is biding his time. We call him compendium because he knows every aspect of the game and can get you close to the page number by memory in 3 books.
Honestly at one point he gave me the creeps with a certain comment - and I beleive this guy would make a hobby of making the perfect plan, to the nth degree, and sit on it for 3 years until "bwahahaha, I turn to the group with a devious smile, and the whole world disappears, and I become master of all..."

Now I play a Fighter half-orc lawful good, and...that's me. I love this little gnome, and I love our group, and I'd give my life in a moment for them in game and out. But I also have that sort of Batman ethic where I realized I need a plan for how to instantly incapacitate and perhaps kill this guy if he goes super-villain on me and tries to dominate the world.

I talked to our Paladin about it. It was a serious talk. And one sided - he made a joke about it and moved on. DISTURBING. More so: he's the DM, and he may actually know or be part of some grand scale plan. He DID NOT help me come up with a plan.

So, hoping my those friends aren't scrolling through here: I've come to you. What on earth can be done to be ready with a plan I hope to never use, using very little funds, and maybe even without the cooperation of my team members?! (there are two others...but...thy would be of no help. to me. Maybe to him.) I have the advantage of planning, time, and surprise though.

PS - if your suggestion is "dude, if he gets to level ___ and goes dark on you, there's nothing you can do but join him. Besides, have you ever TRIED an evil campaign? - could be an amazing opportunity for the crew!" No thanks. Yes We ran one, it was fun and great, my paranoid schizophrenic tortle tore someone's arm off for fun and set up a crime ring. That's not me, that's not my character, and after all the years, this character would have THIS conversation here and die trying to save the world...never siding with overtly oppressive forces. (He's a soldier of sorts of the Empire...whom many would claim is the great satan, it's complex, I get it.)

Any thoughts my friends?

[Segev]

What is it you fear he's going to do? "Go bad" is pretty broad. What warning signs are you looking for? What would be something untoward that your PC couldn't handle?

And more importantly: make sure you're not mixing RL and in-game drama. It might behoove you to talk to the players OOC if this is seriously concerning you.

[Hellpyre]

Poisoning him in his sleep sounds like your safest bet. Did Black Lotus Extract ever get converted over to 5e?

But seriously, poison your weapon, poison him, attack while he's still unconsious for auto-crit on hit, and generally try to end him before he can wake up.

See if you can aquire something that applies antimagic in an area, bind him, and stab in the face until dead.

Basically, suprise him and come prepared to neutralize him before he can put up spell defenses.

[Keravath]

Without the help of magic items, there would seem to be very little you could do to shut the wizard down so much that he would be unable to get away or take any other actions.

1) You need to stop his spellcasting. As long as he can cast a spell he has misty step, dimension door and eventually teleport to instantly remove himself from any uncomfortable situation. My only suggestion for this would be a silence spell or a permanent region of silence on a magic item that you could trigger to stop most of his spellcasting. Being on an item would prevent him from counterspelling.

2) You need to be able to lock him down so he can't just run away. You'd probably have to grapple him then knock him prone then attack him until he is unconscious.

3) You need to prevent him from using magic items since if he has one that allows him to cast a spell then it doesn't need components and anything you do to lock him down won't prevent him from casting a spell from a magic item ... if he has one that would be detrimental to you. This one depends on what resources he has available.

Other than that, I don't have much to suggest. It is a bit of a lopsided battle ... your better bet might be to try to figure out what his longer term plan might be and try to foil that. However, this would require the DM being willing to work with you to give you the bits and pieces you need. You should have a chat with the DM and explain that the other character has made your character suspicious of them through these specific statements the CHARACTER has made. This makes your character want to respond in specific ways to surreptitiously track the activities of the other character. Perhaps you take the magic initiate feat to get the find familiar spell (since it makes such a good scout for the party!) However, you can then choose an innocuous form like a normal spider or something that would never be noticed to let you keep an eye on the activities of your party member to try to figure out if they are up to something and prevent it. Alternatively, multiclassing into Arcane Trickster rogue (or if you already happen to be an EK) or taking a level of wizard or three levels of warlock ... multiclassing might give you some of the tools you need to keep a closer eye on your team mate and perhaps stop them if the need ever arises (expertise in athletics would be good for grappling ... etc).

[Unoriginal]

Let me rephrase your question in a way you might not have considered:


What would your lawful good half-orc Fighter do if they had to defeat an evil wizard and the rest of the adventuring party can't/won't help?


That the evil wizard was a friend changes nothing to the facts of this question.


Now, if the question is "how do I protect myself from a teammate suddenly turning against me when I'm no longer useful to them?", then here's my answer:

Unlike a Batman contingency, D&D rarely has instant-defeat tricks a PC can use on another PC. If it comes to blow you have a good chance at either winning or forcing the wizard to flee, or of winning and have the wizard come back via Clone or the like, so in the end it's a question of questing to dismantle anything the wizard has set up for their attempt at supervillainy.


I second talking with the player OOC, though.

It is a bit of a lopsided battle ...

In favor of the Fighter, yeah. Most likely result is that the Wizard get smacked around but still hurt the Fighter until the point the Wizard has to flee to survive. But PvP is mostly determined by who win initiative anyway.

"Acquire feats/items/boons/anything that boost initiative" might be a good advice for OP.

[KorvinStarmast]

NPC Assassin, while the wizard is asleep.

Unless the wizard is a mountain dwarf or has a Shield Guardian.

Does 120-170 damage in round 1 and round 2 combined, roughly.
How many HP does this wizard have?

[Man_Over_Game]

I think it's more important to talk to the DM OOC. He'll know if the Wizard has plans working in the background or not, and it'll create a discussion where you will know whether or not PvP is acceptable mentality to have.

Some DMs think that anything they do is fine, and a player working with the DM to betray the party, by extension, is also fine. Problem is, a lot of folks come into the game with the trained mentality that you all have to be a team in order to work together at the table, and opening the floodgates for betrayal by DM fiat means that all of the other bastards and thieves now don't have to hold back on stealing from one another.

That could be fine, but only when the party is aware that's the kind of game you're playing. Not everyone wants to listen to the Bard try to seduce everything that moves, and not everyone wants to deal with the Rogue trying to skim a little off the top every 5 seconds. Heck, your team could be aware that "Anything goes" at the party, while they all still trust each other wholeheartedly, and that defiance of distrust would build even more trust of one another.



So ask the DM, in private, if it's acceptable to work on a contingency plan to subdue the Wizard if it comes down to the worst-case scenario.

Either:
He's cool with it (and so there may actually be a plan for the Wizard to go bad)
OR
He's not cool with it (and either the Wizard isn't pulling a betrayal, or you're being railroaded into that resolution anyway).

[Crucius]

I must admit I'm a little confused: is it the PLAYER you are worried about, or their CHARACTER?
If it's the player then I echo those that say you should have a talk with the DM.
If it's the character, well...

It looks like you will have to do your contingency the hard way: through death.
There is basically no way that if he goes dark that you will be able to stop him, especially if you think your other party members are more inclined to join him rather than resist him. (if they would resist him then there is probably no need for any contingency anyways)

So, my best bet is: you are going to die. Make peace with that. Done? Very good.

Try to arrange the following:
A pair of sending stones
A friend
A hunter

So for your hunter I'd suggest one of the following (in order of CR):
An invisible stalker (CR6): Probably not going to defeat the wizard on its own. Probably takes a few. Faultless tracker will help here.
An assassin (CR8): Same story as above, probably need a few.
A retriever (CR14): I don't know their lore, but they look strong and have Faultless Tracker as well. It's a construct so you might be able to commission one somewhere.
A marut (CR25): The big chief. If you can somehow get his signature you could maybe imprint a contract of non-hostility onto the marut, so that if he breaks that contract his life is forfeit.

So here's what you do: you arrange it so that you have to call a person on the other side of the sending stones every day/week/whatever you want, and the day that you don't, your contingency triggers. The proverbial hounds are released and you can exact sweet death upon the wizard.

One problem though: if you die, you know, just randomly from a dragon or something, the contingency triggers as well. But hey, at least your soul can rest, knowing that if he ever were to go dark, he can't anymore. Minority report anyone?

OH! What's even better: information. Make informed plans! Hire another wizard for detect thoughts or scrying. Maybe some commune or anything divination really. Hopefully you can quell your doubts by answering the questions you have, thereby preventing the need for this contingency in the first place!

[Ganryu]

Wizards are the easiest thing in the world to neuter. Steal their spell book, and/or arcane focus. Not many spells you can cast with zero material components.

[Eldariel]

A retriever (CR14): I don't know their lore, but they look strong and have Faultless Tracker as well. It's a construct so you might be able to commission one somewhere.

Retrievers are basically infernal hunter-seekers. Their lore differs from 3e to 5e: in 5e they're drow-created constructs with imprisoned Bebilith spirits (mostly ground away so only the cunning remains) that hunt the abyss for demons for the drows' perusal. Extremely rare for them to be sold to non-drow.

In 3e they were demonic constructs built to resemble Bebiliths and used by powerful demons to find or bring back objects, escaped slaves, or enemies. FWIW the 3e lore feels more logical since they're explicitly Chaotic Evil Mindless Constructs (try and figure that out) that are listed under the "Demon" heading.

So, take your pick.

[Sigreid]

Covertly get hold of something like a soul trap mirror and try to trap his soul.

[Toadkiller]

So, from what I am getting from your post I see the following options.

It’s an OOC thing. The player is maybe upset, or bored, or just playing their character that way cause they think it is fun. In which case a side conversation of “hey, you said X during the game. It got me thinking that maybe you were upset about how the game was going? Is everything ok?”

It’s a game thing. In which case, if you trust the DM and it sounds like you do... wait and see what happens. Sure, if you think your character would do some prep, do some prep. But it could be that they are hatching a plan they hope will be awesome for everybody to play out.

I did that with a DM once. My character had taken possession of an artifact towards the end of a session from a baddie that had a significant downside. The DM and I had carpooled and on the way home we hatched a plan that my character would be adversely influenced and “go bad”. I was open to retiring the character (it was possible he would die). Next session I was the “big bad”. I wouldn’t have done it if I hadn’t trusted the DM as well as my fellow players. It was a good dramatic battle, but action economy got me. My character was “saved” from the artifact but left the group to recover and I got to bring in a new character.

[Zhorn]

Or... Play the long game too...
And there's no greater long game than friendship

I'm currently playing a wizard in game, and like your friend I'm setting up and planning things for down the road.
What would stop my wizard from going all mad-mage? A strong and stable support structure. Friends and family I could rely on to keep me grounded and acting responsible.

So rather than plotting for the ultimate betrayal, by either them or you, focus more on making such a thing undesirable by both parties.

[Nhorianscum]

So I have a very happy group of adventurers, well over 5 years into our campaign, and we're doing just swimmingly.

And recently my friend, who is far too intelligent and a bit scheming, who plays the group's wizard (Lv 8, gnome illusionist.), has made funny comments that caught my attention. Like it's going to his head. He is looking forward to ultimate power. Like he is biding his time. We call him compendium because he knows every aspect of the game and can get you close to the page number by memory in 3 books.
Honestly at one point he gave me the creeps with a certain comment - and I beleive this guy would make a hobby of making the perfect plan, to the nth degree, and sit on it for 3 years until "bwahahaha, I turn to the group with a devious smile, and the whole world disappears, and I become master of all..."

Now I play a Fighter half-orc lawful good, and...that's me. I love this little gnome, and I love our group, and I'd give my life in a moment for them in game and out. But I also have that sort of Batman ethic where I realized I need a plan for how to instantly incapacitate and perhaps kill this guy if he goes super-villain on me and tries to dominate the world.

I talked to our Paladin about it. It was a serious talk. And one sided - he made a joke about it and moved on. DISTURBING. More so: he's the DM, and he may actually know or be part of some grand scale plan. He DID NOT help me come up with a plan.

So, hoping my those friends aren't scrolling through here: I've come to you. What on earth can be done to be ready with a plan I hope to never use, using very little funds, and maybe even without the cooperation of my team members?! (there are two others...but...thy would be of no help. to me. Maybe to him.) I have the advantage of planning, time, and surprise though.

PS - if your suggestion is "dude, if he gets to level ___ and goes dark on you, there's nothing you can do but join him. Besides, have you ever TRIED an evil campaign? - could be an amazing opportunity for the crew!" No thanks. Yes We ran one, it was fun and great, my paranoid schizophrenic tortle tore someone's arm off for fun and set up a crime ring. That's not me, that's not my character, and after all the years, this character would have THIS conversation here and die trying to save the world...never siding with overtly oppressive forces. (He's a soldier of sorts of the Empire...whom many would claim is the great satan, it's complex, I get it.)

Any thoughts my friends?

Well, he's an illusionist so if he's planning it'll kick in at level 14. Whereupon he can just at-will bend reality.

So um, yeah, sucker punch is your only hope and it's not much of a hope.

[Unoriginal]

Covertly get hold of something like a soul trap mirror and try to trap his soul.

Don't think there is an already existing magic item which reliably let you trap only the soul of a specific foe against their will. Unless we're going artifact-level.

[Crucius]

Retrievers are basically infernal hunter-seekers. Their lore differs from 3e to 5e: in 5e they're drow-created constructs with imprisoned Bebilith spirits (mostly ground away so only the cunning remains) that hunt the abyss for demons for the drows' perusal. Extremely rare for them to be sold to non-drow.

In 3e they were demonic constructs built to resemble Bebiliths and used by powerful demons to find or bring back objects, escaped slaves, or enemies. FWIW the 3e lore feels more logical since they're explicitly Chaotic Evil Mindless Constructs (try and figure that out) that are listed under the "Demon" heading.

So, take your pick.

Hmm, that might be a problem for the Lawful Good Fighter then. Thanks for the lore! I appreciate it!

[Unoriginal]

Retrievers are basically infernal hunter-seekers. Their lore differs from 3e to 5e: in 5e they're drow-created constructs with imprisoned Bebilith spirits (mostly ground away so only the cunning remains) that hunt the abyss for demons for the drows' perusal. Extremely rare for them to be sold to non-drow.

In 3e they were demonic constructs built to resemble Bebiliths and used by powerful demons to find or bring back objects, escaped slaves, or enemies. FWIW the 3e lore feels more logical since they're explicitly Chaotic Evil Mindless Constructs (try and figure that out) that are listed under the "Demon" heading.

So, take your pick.

Not sure what you find more logical in "chaotic evil mindless constructs created by demons" compared to "drow-created constructs fueled by a demon"

[Mikal]

Hmm I’d say stop being paranoid, personally.

[Kane0]

You’ll need to break his casting. Silence or a gag to remove verbal components, break or disarm focus/material pouches and some good restraints for somatic. Removing his spellbook doesnt take away his memorized spells but grapples do stop him from running the old fashioned way.

But thats just the immediate consideration. Any competent mage will have their own plan B, so your contingency has to account for theirs, and so the rabbit hole of 4D chess begins. You’ll need to dispel active magic effects he has in place, you’ll need to stop him from transferring to a clone by killing him, you’ll need to cut him off from any allies he may have, etc, etc.

Oh, and he can certainly read your mind by now so theres that...

[Unoriginal]

You’ll need to break his casting. Silence or a gag to remove verbal components, break or disarm focus/material pouches and some good restraints for somatic. Removing his spellbook doesnt take away his memorized spells but grapples do stop him from running the old fashioned way.

Well, on the subject of anti-caster tactics, a large chunk of spells you have to worry about requires the caster to see the target, so preventing that will limit the mage a lot

[Eldariel]

Not sure what you find more logical in "chaotic evil mindless constructs created by demons" compared to "drow-created constructs fueled by a demon"

Mostly that they're MINDLESS constructs. For them to have an alignment, their very composition has to be of some aligned matter. Of course, it's largely irrelevant for their functioning; Undead are a parallel that are mostly evil since they happen to be made of evil matter. Basically all constructs are unaligned/neutral since they're incapable of having alignment; this is one of such constructs and since it has an alignment, it probably takes something beyond what mortal kin like drow can do.

[Unoriginal]

Mostly that they're MINDLESS constructs. For them to have an alignment, their very composition has to be of some aligned matter. Of course, it's largely irrelevant for their functioning; Undead are a parallel that are mostly evil since they happen to be made of evil matter. Basically all constructs are unaligned/neutral since they're incapable of having alignment; this is one of such constructs and since it has an alignment, it probably takes something beyond what mortal kin like drow can do.

I mean, the Retriever is sapient (if very dumb). It's basically a lobotomized fiend in a spider body, programmed to follow orders absolutely but still with the fiend's malevolence.

Also, only the unaligned constructs are non-sapient. The neutral constructs are neutral because they're Elementals put into fancy construct bodies, and the normal Elementals have enough (or perhaps just enough) self-awareness and sapience to have an alignment (at least when they're separated and individualized from their Planes' very fabric by magic).

The same is true for undead like zombies and skeletons in 5e: they're evil not because they're made of evil, they're evil because their very limited intellect is entirely dedicated to malevolently destroying all life.

Now, I agree it would have been more thematic/more interesting/funnier if the 5e Retrievers were chaotic evil due to being inhabited by a demon, and such the Drow had *huge* troubles keeping them in line. Since Drow are demonists and not diabolists, it'd make sense their fiend-infused constructs are chaotic messes.

[zinycor]

So first of all, are you, the player, ok with this sort of PvP. If not, you should talk to your group about it and reach some compromise.

If you are ok with it. Then I would say that there are 3 things that are vital for wizards:

1: Spellbook: If the wizard lacks a spellbook he will have to use only the spells they have prepared at the moment. Very damaging.

2: Arcane focus, material components: If you take it away, the wizard will have very, very limited options .

3: Vision: most spells require for the caster to see their target, remove the ability of the caster to see, and again, their options will be limited.

To achieve this, you will need to think outside box. But it can be done with enough prep.

[Sigreid]

The reality is that due to the Clone spell, you have to find a way to attack and kill/break his mind or his soul. Anything else is just a speed bump.

That said, I love playing wizards myself but personally go a Rick Sanchez route. I'll have plans to burn it all down. Mostly as a means of ensuring that others don't mess with me and I can do whatever I want. The key to neutralizing me as a threat is to leave me alone.

[JackPhoenix]

Apply weapon to the face repeatedly, until he stops moving. Preferably before level 15, when Clone comes online, or level 13, when he can get Simulacrum backup that could drag his corpse away to get him resurrected. Not much else you can do.

It all comes down to initiative. Not in the D&D sense, but strategic initiative. Whoever acts first, wins. You don't know what the wizard has planned, so you don't know what specifics to prepare against. You can attack pre-emptively, and have a good chance of coming on top if you pick your moment well, but that's propably not gonna fly (though the wizard being a gnome should be reason enough). And if the wizard goes with whatever he's got planned, he's got rid of you if you're a threat to him. The solution is to join him, then stab him in the back at the most convenient opportunity after he reveals his nefarious plan.

Also, DMPC who's on the wizard's plan? Yeah, that doesn't sound good.

1: Spellbook: If the wizard lacks a spellbook he will have to use only the spells they have prepared at the moment. Very damaging.

Not unless you act a week before he triggers the plan, and maybe not even then.

2: Arcane focus, material components: If you take it away, the wizard will have very, very limited options .

Yes, only about half of their spells. Limitation, but much less serious than people think. And that's assuming he doesn't have a backup, which he should. Not that it stops an illusionist, who can make real components any time he wants after level 14.

3: Vision: most spells require for the caster to see their target, remove the ability of the caster to see, and again, their options will be limited.

Much harder than it sounds in the practice.

[zinycor]

Apply weapon to the face repeatedly, until he stops moving. Preferably before level 15, when Clone comes online, or level 13, when he can get Simulacrum backup that could drag his corpse away to get him resurrected. Not much else you can do.

It all comes down to initiative. Not in the D&D sense, but strategic initiative. Whoever acts first, wins. You don't know what the wizard has planned, so you don't know what specifics to prepare against. You can attack pre-emptively, and have a good chance of coming on top if you pick your moment well, but that's propably not gonna fly (though the wizard being a gnome should be reason enough). And if the wizard goes with whatever he's got planned, he's got rid of you if you're a threat to him. The solution is to join him, then stab him in the back at the most convenient opportunity after he reveals his nefarious plan.

Also, DMPC who's on the wizard's plan? Yeah, that doesn't sound good.



Not unless you act a week before he triggers the plan, and maybe not even then.



Yes, only about half of their spells. Limitation, but much less serious than people think. And that's assuming he doesn't have a backup, which he should. Not that it stops an illusionist, who can make real components any time he wants after level 14.



Much harder than it sounds in the practice.

Did you miss the gnome is lvl 8? No need to worry about what he will do at level 14 yet.

Edit: and blinding a wizard can be incredibly easy, both blindness and darkness are only second level spells. Blindness in particular targets constitution saves and requires no concentration. Which wizards aren't proficient at.

[JackPhoenix]

Did you miss the gnome is lvl 8? No need to worry about what he will do at level 14 yet.

He's not fighting the gnome yet. It's unlikely the gnome tries anything now.

Edit: and blinding a wizard can be incredibly easy, both blindness and darkness are only second level spells. Blindness in particular targets constitution saves and requires no concentration. Which wizards aren't proficient at.

Which is a very valuable information for a fighter, I'm sure.

[Eldariel]

I mean, the Retriever is sapient (if very dumb). It's basically a lobotomized fiend in a spider body, programmed to follow orders absolutely but still with the fiend's malevolence.

Also, only the unaligned constructs are non-sapient. The neutral constructs are neutral because they're Elementals put into fancy construct bodies, and the normal Elementals have enough (or perhaps just enough) self-awareness and sapience to have an alignment (at least when they're separated and individualized from their Planes' very fabric by magic).

The same is true for undead like zombies and skeletons in 5e: they're evil not because they're made of evil, they're evil because their very limited intellect is entirely dedicated to malevolently destroying all life.

Now, I agree it would have been more thematic/more interesting/funnier if the 5e Retrievers were chaotic evil due to being inhabited by a demon, and such the Drow had *huge* troubles keeping them in line. Since Drow are demonists and not diabolists, it'd make sense their fiend-infused constructs are chaotic messes.

Yeah, 3e Retrievers are actually mindless (but still Chaotic Evil), 5e Retrievers have minimal capability for intelligent thought ('cause 5e doesn't do non-attributes - Stone Golem is more intelligent than some animals for instance, which is just silly considering what a Stone Golem is).

[zinycor]

He's not fighting the gnome yet. It's unlikely the gnome tries anything now.



Which is a very valuable information for a fighter, I'm sure.

Exactly, thanks for understanding.

[Darth Credence]

I'm assuming this is all in good fun, in character.

What you need is something like the lysine contingency, although in a way that will work for you. It's very campaign dependent on whether anything will actually work, but if there is a way, I think it will deal with your needs.

In my campaign, addiction is a thing. For example, if you take a health potion without needing it, or just one that heals well beyond your current needs, you get a little rush. It's minor, but it can give an advantage in certain situations. However, it also will get the person addicted, and you have to eventually start taking potions all the time, or you get some hefty penalties. There are other things that can go even worse if you abruptly stop, and most of them would really mess up a caster for a bit. If your DM is amenable to something that has a withdrawal effect, introduce it into everyone's food, including your own. If he goes to the dark side, he stops getting the chemical, and he will be easy pickings for a short time. If he never does, well, you have to keep supplying the stuff to the group forever. If someone gets separated from the group for a while, they may experience the withdrawals, and that can be a huge problem. And if you ever let everyone know about this, they may hate you. But, you're looking for Batman level contingency plans, and in the Babel story line where the rest of the League finds out about the contingency plans, they hate Batman for a bit, so this fits that as well.