Three New 5e Settings Confirmed

[KorvinStarmast]

Don't you mean "Drizzt of the story"?

Ya got me.

[Devils_Advocate]

But I think that's one of the things Kender players (and their DMs) get wrong. You aren't stealing people's stuff.

What do you think the word "steal" means?

As far as I can tell, 5E doesn't do alignment any differently than say, 1E, 2E or 3E.

5E has the "same alignments" as those editions... in that it still uses the same labels, sometimes for quite different things. Neutral is no longer specifically a bizarre "The balance must be preserved!" philosophy, which might have some implications for a setting where that stance played an important role. I think that there has been a bit of a shift from seeing alignments as cosmic factions (each with its own special language!) associated with moral positions, to seeing a creature's alignments as representing that creature's moral nature itself. So instead of "It's important that no faction becomes too powerful, because even the 'Good' gods aren't above mass murder", it's "Of course the Good gods wouldn't commit mass murder".

All that aside, alignment generally just doesn't interact with stuff rulesways in 5E. Pertinently, no class or subclass overtly limits what alignment a character is allowed to be; not even in cases where an implicit restriction clearly does exist, as with some Paladin oaths. You could depart from that convention for Dragonlance... but, due to the considerations mentioned above, Dragonlance's factions aren't 5E's alignments anyway. So, really, the way to include them without having to force anything would be to just let Team White, Team Red, and Team Black be their own thing. Then you can have Team White characters murder as much as you want without contradicting yourself!

[Tawmis]

What do you think the word "steal" means?

I think with Kender...

Steal would indicate an intent to keep by removing it from another person.

A Kender is more often, simply borrowing the item. Because when it's called for or needed, they more often than not simply say, "Oh, you must have dropped it." And return the item.

If one was stealing it, they wouldn't surrender the item over and be more like, "Hey, I think Bob over there was rifling through your bags while we were sleeping - maybe he has your magic ring, Gol' ol' buddy?" (All the while, fondling said golden ring that makes you invisible in your pocket).

[Sigreid]

I think there's a decent chance for Greyhawk given how frequently prominent Greyhawk NPCs have been popping up in the official material.

[Luccan]

I think there's a decent chance for Greyhawk given how frequently prominent Greyhawk NPCs have been popping up in the official material.

The only reason I'm doubtful about Greyhawk is that I don't think it looks sufficiently different enough at a glance to the layman from FR to receive a lot of sales. While bringing back old settings is clearly an appeal to old fans, they still want new fans to buy it. I could be wrong, for a variety of reasons, but it's crossed my mind a few times

[JackPhoenix]

I think there's a decent chance for Greyhawk given how frequently prominent Greyhawk NPCs have been popping up in the official material.

Ghost of Saltmarch showed they are aware of settings other than FR, and we've got both Mordenkainen and Tasha on splatbook covers, so that's plausible. Add all the Spelljammer stuff, and Spelljammer itself is more interesting than Planescape (which is more detail on stuff that's already present in PHB, i.e. the planes) and Ravenloft being pretty much confirmed....

I still hope for surprise Dark Sun, though.

[x3n0n]

I think there's a decent chance for Greyhawk given how frequently prominent Greyhawk NPCs have been popping up in the official material.

I listened to the last "Sage Advice" podcast segment this morning, and JC name-dropped Greyhawk as one of the settings to which one could adapt various group patrons.

[Sigreid]

The only reason I'm doubtful about Greyhawk is that I don't think it looks sufficiently different enough at a glance to the layman from FR to receive a lot of sales. While bringing back old settings is clearly an appeal to old fans, they still want new fans to buy it. I could be wrong, for a variety of reasons, but it's crossed my mind a few times

As I said, I was just thinking of how they keep using original Greyhawk characters pop up. I actually think it would be a good thing not just because I'm old enough to remember the setting, but it's a setting they can offer that doesn't have all the baggage FR currently has (time of troubles, spell plague, etc.).

[rooneg]

There’s also just the fact that the average person in Krynn doesn’t have any real understanding of what the details of the wizards of high sorcery are. A Wizard is a Wizard to them. The whole deal with the three moons and whatnot isn’t public info at all, the black moon that powers the magic of the black robes isn’t visible to the naked eye and is basically unknown.

Also, another example that just occurred to me. In places that did have more knowledge of magic and how the orders operated we see at least one example of a black robe wizard being cast out. Dalamar was explicitly expelled from Silvanesti when he was discovered to have studied dark magic and pledged himself to Nuitari. This was before he took the test and became an official black robe wizard, but it’s pretty clear that the elves saw where he was headed and wanted none of that around.

[JackPhoenix]

Also, another example that just occurred to me. In places that did have more knowledge of magic and how the orders operated we see at least one example of a black robe wizard being cast out. Dalamar was explicitly expelled from Silvanesti when he was discovered to have studied dark magic and pledged himself to Nuitari. This was before he took the test and became an official black robe wizard, but it’s pretty clear that the elves saw where he was headed and wanted none of that around.

That's because the elves firmly seen themselves in the Good camp and only accepted the white order. Dalamar would be kicked out if he ended up as a red wizard too.

[rooneg]

That's because the elves firmly seen themselves in the Good camp and only accepted the white order. Dalamar would be kicked out if he ended up as a red wizard too.

I mean, it's also somewhat more complicated than that with the elves, IIRC there was some sort of "you must be of this high a social caste to learn the cool magic" sort of thing going on with him. But still, it does show that at least some societies in Krynn did have particular opinions about which types of wizards were okay, it wasn't just "sure, go hang out over there in your black robe doing your necromancy" all over the place.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

I think with Kender...

Steal would indicate an intent to keep by removing it from another person.

A Kender is more often, simply borrowing the item. Because when it's called for or needed, they more often than not simply say, "Oh, you must have dropped it." And return the item.

If one was stealing it, they wouldn't surrender the item over and be more like, "Hey, I think Bob over there was rifling through your bags while we were sleeping - maybe he has your magic ring, Gol' ol' buddy?" (All the while, fondling said golden ring that makes you invisible in your pocket).

If you take something from somebody without their consent, that's definitely theft, regardless of what your intentions are afterwards. They might forgive you if you had particularly good justifications, but it's still theft.

If Kender are ever put into 5e it will be the first race I ever ban from my games. They are the "rogue steals from the party and then lies about it" problem personified into a race. Having lying to/stealing from your friends being encouraged in a cooperative game is a choice I'll never quite understand. I can't even imagine a party realistically keeping a Kender around after they've pulled their "steal the Fighter's most prized possession then lie and say they dropped it when you are caught" once, nevermind repeatedly.

[gloryblaze]

If you take something from somebody without their consent, that's definitely theft, regardless of what your intentions are afterwards. They might forgive you if you had particularly good justifications, but it's still theft.

Not quite, at least not in all jurisdictions. Intent to deprive is typically necessary to prove criminal theft. For example, here's an excerpt from Arizona's theft statute:

.
A person commits theft if, without lawful authority, the person knowingly:

1. Controls property of another with the intent to deprive the other person of such property;

Notice how "intent to deprive" is necessary. This is often called "mens rea", or "guilty mind." If you take someone else's property with no intent to deprive them of that property (such as if you intend to give it back upon demand), you will likely not be guilty of theft.

Of course, if you take someone else's property without permission but intend to return it, you may still be civilly liable to them for the tort known as conversion.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think there's a decent chance for Greyhawk given how frequently prominent Greyhawk NPCs have been popping up in the official material.

The Saltmarsh book was a nice teaser, if that's going to happen. *crosses fingers* There's a wealth of mid to high level adventure potential in the eastern half of the world in the Great Kingdom ...

If you take something from somebody without their consent, that's definitely theft, regardless of what your intentions are afterwards. They might forgive you if you had particularly good justifications, but it's still theft.

If Kender are ever put into 5e it will be the first race I ever ban from my games.

That's two of us.

(The rest of that part of your post did a nice job of describing what I was alluding to with the term 'grief play' - which term I learned during on line gaming)

[JadedDM]

Kender wouldn't steal 'your most prized possession'. A kender borrows things like colorful feathers, shiny rocks, cool widgets. They don't care about gold or jewels. So it's important to remember when talking about a kender 'taking your stuff, then claiming you dropped it,' the things being taken are more like an embroidered handkerchief, a shiny signet ring or a partially melted coin. Not the fighter's +2 long sword or the wizard's wand of magic missiles.

[Sigreid]

Kender wouldn't steal 'your most prized possession'. A kender borrows things like colorful feathers, shiny rocks, cool widgets. They don't care about gold or jewels. So it's important to remember when talking about a kender 'taking your stuff, then claiming you dropped it,' the things being taken are more like an embroidered handkerchief, a shiny signet ring or a partially melted coin. Not the fighter's +2 long sword or the wizard's wand of magic missiles.

Still wouldn't blame anyone for murdering them.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

Kender wouldn't steal 'your most prized possession'. A kender borrows things like colorful feathers, shiny rocks, cool widgets. They don't care about gold or jewels. So it's important to remember when talking about a kender 'taking your stuff, then claiming you dropped it,' the things being taken are more like an embroidered handkerchief, a shiny signet ring or a partially melted coin. Not the fighter's +2 long sword or the wizard's wand of magic missiles.

Just because a character is a fighter doesn't mean their most prized possession has to be a really good sword. The fighter could for example, have a ring with extreme sentimental value.

Furthermore, "cool widgets" describes a truckload of magical items in the game, so it's not like kender aren't compelled to steal things of consequence. And regardless of WHAT they are taking, the fact that they are routinely taking from other party members and lying about it makes them a massive liability. Would you hang out with someone who every time you spend time they come over your house, they swipe a random trinket and lie (and maintain that lie) every time when they are caught? Now could you imagine putting your life into that persons hands?

[Fumble Jack]

Since they're doing a Forgotten Realms expansion in the magic card game, might be a safe bet they'll do another official Magic setting, maybe Zendikar since that's popular on the magic side as one of the 3 books. I'd like to see Datk Sun but still not convinced it may be a thing yet.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Kender wouldn't steal 'your most prized possession'. A kender borrows things like colorful feathers, shiny rocks, cool widgets. They don't care about gold or jewels. So it's important to remember when talking about a kender 'taking your stuff, then claiming you dropped it,' the things being taken are more like an embroidered handkerchief, a shiny signet ring or a partially melted coin. Not the fighter's +2 long sword or the wizard's wand of magic missiles.

I'm coming in from a perspective of not being at all knowledgeable on what a Kender was before this... I already don't like them.

I don't really care what you're taking, why do you need to take any of my things? It seems like an excuse to just be taking things from people for no reason other than "it's what I do, why are you mad, it was just that thing you had that was yours." and having even the room for them to be snatching beyond trinkets and baubles is even more confounding.

If the identity of them can be defined accurately as "I take your stuff because I can" then I'd rather not put up with it, because not every player is going to be the starry eyed kender who is actually out for fun, it's a case where even if the majority of it is harmless the minority of problems it enables far outstrips that.

Besides all that, the bit of research that I did to try and bring myself up to speed makes them out to be pathological liars who would not honestly give up what they've stolen unless you coerce them into it.

I've never played with one, and I've never known about them in detail before today and I already dislike them heavily.

[JadedDM]

Would you hang out with someone who every time you spend time they come over your house, they swipe a random trinket and lie (and maintain that lie) every time when they are caught? Now could you imagine putting your life into that persons hands?

They aren't being deceptive. They honestly believe that they are returning an item to you that you lost. There's no maliciousness involved. The kender gets distracted by something they think looks cool, pick it up, get bored with it, absently drop it in their pouches and forget about it until it's brought up again.

It's ironic, in a way, people keep trying to label kender as thieving jerks, because the whole reason for their creation was Tracey Hickman didn't like the idea of halfling thieves who maliciously steal things from people, so he came up with kender handlers as a way around that.

[MrStabby]

I think that there is an issue of "rights" here.

If my character owns something there is a legitimate expectation that they control some aspect of it. Some kind of right of determination of property.

If I am a wizard, I should expect to chose what to write in my spell book - no PC should use a class ability to cause me, without my consent, to happen to scribe a different spell in my book by mistake.

If I have a pebble collection from the beaches of some distant land, I collected it and, barring DM intervention which is a different matter, should be able to say where on my personal it is stored.

It isnt about not having my stuff, it's about not getting to take my place at the table determining how my stuff plays out in the game.

[diplomancer]

I think that there is an issue of "rights" here.

If my character owns something there is a legitimate expectation that they control some aspect of it. Some kind of right of determination of property.

If I am a wizard, I should expect to chose what to write in my spell book - no PC should use a class ability to cause me, without my consent, to happen to scribe a different spell in my book by mistake.

If I have a pebble collection from the beaches of some distant land, I collected it and, barring DM intervention which is a different matter, should be able to say where on my personal it is stored.

It isnt about not having my stuff, it's about not getting to take my place at the table determining how my stuff plays out in the game.

The odd things about Kender is, though they were created with a game in mind, they work far better in a book (where they "just exist", it's not their fault and everyone in the world knows that) than in the gaming table (where, if they exist, it's because a player CHOSE to be one, and is responsible for whatever grief is inflicted on the other players by his character.)

That said, a memorable character in one of my campaigns was an old, half-senile Cleric who kept trying (and almost always failing) to pick the pockets of the rest of the Party.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

They aren't being deceptive. They honestly believe that they are returning an item to you that you lost. There's no maliciousness involved. The kender gets distracted by something they think looks cool, pick it up, get bored with it, absently drop it in their pouches and forget about it until it's brought up again.

It's ironic, in a way, people keep trying to label kender as thieving jerks, because the whole reason for their creation was Tracey Hickman didn't like the idea of halfling thieves who maliciously steal things from people, so he came up with kender handlers as a way around that.

Whether it's deliberate or not, the end result is that they're committing a crime and telling an untruth when confronted with it, and will always repeat this behavior. That's a huge liability, and not someone I'd be willing to take with me in a life-or-death situation, especially not on a regular basis. In fact if they're completely incapable of understanding their own actions, and they essentially act like children... Shouldn't they be relegated to something akin to a care facility, rather than going out and about getting into fights?

Not to mention in a meta way, the player who has chosen to play as a kender *is* making a deliberate decision to be a deceptive thief. They can't just wash their hands of it and say "This is what my character would do!", they decided to make the choice to play a kleptomaniac who is pathologically incapable of understanding that they are a kleptomaniac. As stated before, it's essentially a way to grief the party in games where the other players can't just say "Okay, we leave Stealy the Kender at the inn and ride off without him, hoping never to see him again".

[KorvinStarmast]

The odd things about Kender is, though they were created with a game in mind, they work far better in a book

They were an awfully clumsy attempt to craft a hobbit for an adventuring party without it being a hobbit.

Not to mention in a meta way, the player who has chosen to play as a kender *is* making a deliberate decision to be a deceptive thief. They can't just wash their hands of it and say "This is what my character would do!",

They can try, but it usually doesn't end well. (I agree with your post)

[Brookshw]

They aren't being deceptive. They honestly believe that they are returning an item to you that you lost. There's no maliciousness involved. The kender gets distracted by something they think looks cool, pick it up, get bored with it, absently drop it in their pouches and forget about it until it's brought up again.

Of course, those "found" items may have very well been in your pockets to begin with, I don't know that the absent minded thief is better than the....intentional (?) thief.

Back to the topic at hand, I noticed an article today about about a Power Rangers, GI Joe and My Little Pony game which appear to be using the D&D system, watch those be the campaigns and the rest is a giant trolling.

[Spriteless]

Back to the topic at hand, I noticed an article today about about a Power Rangers, GI Joe and My Little Pony game which appear to be using the D&D system, watch those be the campaigns and the rest is a giant trolling.

Wow. My Little Pony is the one that needs the fewest changes to fit the system. Though GI Joe could be a more flavorful D20 modern.

This actually reminds me of when everything had a D20 version, or when Call of Cthuhlu and Rune Quest from Chaosium had the same D100 system some years earlier.

[Sigreid]

Wow. My Little Pony is the one that needs the fewest changes to fit the system. Though GI Joe could be a more flavorful D20 modern.

This actually reminds me of when everything had a D20 version, or when Call of Cthuhlu and Rune Quest from Chaosium had the same D100 system some years earlier.

There's a webcomic that a few years back had a bit about the characters making rules for My Little Pony when I guess it was announced that all the ponies were princesses. Pretty much all I know about My Little Pony is from that joke and that they are allegedly horses of some kind.

[Tawmis]

The only reason I'm doubtful about Greyhawk is that I don't think it looks sufficiently different enough at a glance to the layman from FR to receive a lot of sales. While bringing back old settings is clearly an appeal to old fans, they still want new fans to buy it. I could be wrong, for a variety of reasons, but it's crossed my mind a few times

Here's the thing. Do you think folks don't get enjoyment out of the MCU movies when they make nods to actual comic covers, scenes, etc?

The thing is, if you're not familiar with it (whether it be Greyhawk or a specific scene, done that's clearly a nod to a specific comic cover) - it doesn't take away from anyone. It allows those that are familiar with it to appreciate it and enjoy it, while those not familiar with it will take it at face value as something new.

It's not like they'd say "Greyhawk is now 5e" and provide no lore, stats, etc. They would go into depth about it. People would either just embrace it as something new (akin to Ebberon) or be joyful for the older folks (like myself) to see something we recognize from "back in the day."

If you take something from somebody without their consent, that's definitely theft, regardless of what your intentions are afterwards. They might forgive you if you had particularly good justifications, but it's still theft.

If Kender are ever put into 5e it will be the first race I ever ban from my games. They are the "rogue steals from the party and then lies about it" problem personified into a race. Having lying to/stealing from your friends being encouraged in a cooperative game is a choice I'll never quite understand. I can't even imagine a party realistically keeping a Kender around after they've pulled their "steal the Fighter's most prized possession then lie and say they dropped it when you are caught" once, nevermind repeatedly.

If your player (if it was allowed) was stealing things and denying it, then they're not playing the (traditional) Kender correctly.

They were an awfully clumsy attempt to craft a hobbit for an adventuring party without it being a hobbit. They can try, but it usually doesn't end well. (I agree with your post)

For someone who said they didn't want to discuss Dragonlance anymore, you sure do have a lot of opinions about it.
As for a lazy attempt at a Hobbit, I would differ - as someone who read all the books and didn't just play a module and not make it through the first (or second?) book.
When I played a Dragonlance specific campaign (taking place after Chronicles and not a module), I played a Kender. And it was never about stealing or hoarding. It was more about - imagine an entire race that has the curiosity and often times childlike fearlessness - to do and try different things. That's what a Kender is. A Hobbit is very much the opposite. A Hobbit wants to sit in their hobbit hole, smoking their pipes, enjoying the sunrise. Very much the opposite of a Hobbit in every regard.

The only relation to "Hobbits" would be their "size." But then, why not say they're dwarves or gnomes? Because they're the same size too.

[Sigreid]

For someone who said they didn't want to discuss Dragonlance anymore, you sure do have a lot of opinions about it.
As for a lazy attempt at a Hobbit, I would differ - as someone who read all the books and didn't just play a module and not make it through the first (or second?) book.
When I played a Dragonlance specific campaign (taking place after Chronicles and not a module), I played a Kender. And it was never about stealing or hoarding. It was more about - imagine an entire race that has the curiosity and often times childlike fearlessness - to do and try different things. That's what a Kender is. A Hobbit is very much the opposite. A Hobbit wants to sit in their hobbit hole, smoking their pipes, enjoying the sunrise. Very much the opposite of a Hobbit in every regard.

The only relation to "Hobbits" would be their "size." But then, why not say they're dwarves or gnomes? Because they're the same size too.

Yep. Kinder is even just German for child, hence kindergarten which is literally child garden. Basically it's adventuring with a person with the skill competence of an adult and the mindset of a 5 year old. And this does also mean that they are capable of not touching what they know is really important to you.

[KorvinStarmast]

As for a lazy attempt at a Hobbit, I would differ - as someone who read all the books and didn't just play a module and not make it through the first (or second?) book.

You do not seem to have understood my post
I read around a dozen dragon lance books. Maybe a few more than a dozen.
The first series as they came out.
The twins trilogy. Some of the one-offs (there was one with Kit and Tannis I vaguely recall, but I also think that some of the books were written by others who weren't MW or TH ... it's been a long time)
What I didn't do was read any of them a second time. Things I have read a second time like Forgotten Beasts of Eld, Starship Troopers, Hobbit, LoTR, Hobb's Assassin series, etc, are books that I really like.
The DL books that I owned I donated to the ship's library when I left that assignment.

As to the modules: we played the first one. The second one (and the rest which I picked up later) never left their wrapper.

As more books came out, I'd had enough of them and didn't bother. (I also cut way back on D&D and related material in the 90's, AD&D 2e time, as we were having kids and that hobby wasn't in the picture.
IIRC, DL was still pretty big in AD&D 2e, but the other settings appealed to me more: planescape and darksun)

Hmm, I just remembered another piece of the DL world building / annoying fiddly bits, that bugged me: steel coins. It was (for my tastes) a much worse variant that M.A.R. Barker's metal poor Tekumel world where clenh hide armor was more common that metal armor, and metal(steel) was a very valuable commodity.

I liked the Deathgate cycle but didn't keep those books either.