Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

[Segev]

Again you are simply not understanding what a house rule is. If you add a rule that you made up to the rules then you are house ruling. It doesnt matter if it contradicts existing rules or not. House rule refers to rules that you make up. If you haven't made that rule up then you can prove you did not make it up by finding it in the PHB. So can you?

As you know "wield" is not defined by the rules. So we have english semantics to sort out the RAW with regards to rules that mention "wield".

What is the definition of "wield" you are using?

In that case, you are house ruling when you claim that the weapon is not wielded in however many hands wielded it at the start of the attack, because nothing in the rules you cited say so.

[ThorOdinson]

I use some kind of marking tool (pen, paint, etc) to create an image of a weapon on some kind of surface (paper, a wall etc). There now that's been totally cleared up.

Is that what is being referred to here in the following quote from the PHB?

You can also interact with one object or feature of The Environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to Attack.

So are we drawing weapons from sheaths or drawing weapons with art supplies?

In that case, you are house ruling when you claim that the weapon is not wielded in however many hands wielded it at the start of the attack, because nothing in the rules you cited say so.

Again. You have it backwards.

The Dueling fighting style has a conditional that needs to be met before it can be applied.

The conditional refers to "wielded"

That term is no where defined in the PHB.

So what definition for "wield" are you using?

[ThorOdinson]

Duplicate post

[Valmark]

Again. You have it backwards.

The Dueling fighting style has a conditional that needs to be met before it can be applied.

The conditional refers to "wielded"

That term is no where defined in the PHB.

So what definition for "wield" are you using?

While it is not defined a thrown weapon is explicitely wielded when thrown, as per the text of Returning Weapon which was quoted previously.

[ThorOdinson]

While it is not defined a thrown weapon is explicitely wielded when thrown, as per the text of Returning Weapon which was quoted previously.

So based on the meaning of "wield" you are using here based on the Returning Weapon rule . . .

When a weapon has been thrown and the thrown weapon hits the target and deals damage while it is not in one hand (or any hand), is that thrown weapon "wielded"?

[Valmark]

So based on the meaning of "wield" you are using here based on the Returning Weapon rule . . .

When a weapon has been thrown and the thrown weapon hits the target and deals damage while it is not in one hand (or any hand), is that thrown weapon "wielded"?

Wether one rules that it's in one hand, two hands or no hands the weapon is wielded.

[ThorOdinson]

Wether one rules that it's in one hand, two hands or no hands the weapon is wielded.

Do you agree that when a weapon has been thrown and the thrown weapon hits the target and deals damage while it is not in one hand (or any hand), that the thrown weapon is "wielded"?

[Garhi]

So based on the meaning of "wield" you are using here based on the Returning Weapon rule . . .

When a weapon has been thrown and the thrown weapon hits the target and deals damage while it is not in one hand (or any hand), is that thrown weapon "wielded"?

The crux here is the "while it is not in one hand (or any hand)" that you keep trying to sneak in and get people to agree to.

The whole argument is that we don't agree with the premise that, mechanically speaking, the weapon ceases being "wielded in one hand" when you throw it.

You have yet to provide any rules source that definitively states that the weapon does change states from being "wielded in one hand" before the attack resolves.

[ThorOdinson]

The crux here is the "while it is not in one hand (or any hand)" that you keep trying to sneak in and get people to agree to.

The whole argument is that we don't agree with the premise that, mechanically speaking, the weapon ceases being "wielded in one hand" when you throw it.

You have yet to provide any rules source that definitively states that the weapon does change states from being "wielded in one hand" before the attack resolves.

The Dueling Fighting Style rule is written in conditional format. In order to get the bonus you must satisfy the conditional. The conditional includes the word "wield". So what is your definition of "wield"?

The whole argument is that we don't agree with the premise that, mechanically speaking, the weapon ceases being "wielded in one hand" when you throw it.

So are you saying that when you throw a weapon it remains in your hand?

[OzDragon]

The Dueling Fighting Style rule is written in conditional format. In order to get the bonus you must satisfy the conditional. The conditional includes the word "wield". So what is your definition of "wield"?



So are you saying that when you throw a weapon it remains in your hand?

That does not matter as there is no flight time mechanic. Did you make an attack? Were you "wielding" (holding/using)a melee weapon in one hand when you made that attack?

The game uses an attack action. That action includes intent to attack, making a roll, determining hit or miss, and assigning damage. ALL of that is the attack action.

[ff7hero]

Is that what is being referred to here in the following quote from the PHB?

So are we drawing weapons from sheaths or drawing weapons with art supplies?

The RAW supports both interpretations.

ETA: the question was "what happens when you draw a weapon?" and I've drawn many more with art supplies than I have from sheaths (/holsters/slings/etc).

[ThorOdinson]

That does not matter as there is no flight time mechanic. Did you make an attack? Were you "wielding" (holding/using)a melee weapon in one hand when you made that attack?

The game uses an attack action. That action includes intent to attack, making a roll, determining hit or miss, and assigning damage. ALL of that is the attack action.

In order to make a ranged attack the character must throw the weapon.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

We know the weapon has been thrown. We throw the weapon as a requirement for making a ranged Attack.

So when you throw a weapon, does it remain in your hand or not?

[OzDragon]

In order to make a ranged attack the character must throw the weapon.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

We know the weapon has been thrown. We throw the weapon as a requirement for making a ranged Attack.

So when you throw a weapon, does it remain in your hand or not?

Again it does not matter, did you make an attack with it? Melee or ranged. There is no separation of when you attack and when it hits.

[ThorOdinson]

Again it does not matter, did you make an attack with it? Melee or ranged. There is no separation of when you attack and when it hits.

Ok. You claim it does not matter. But what is the answer? In order to make a ranged attack, I have to throw the weapon. So does the weapon remain in my hand when I throw it or not?

[OzDragon]

Ok. You claim it does not matter. But what is the answer? In order to make a ranged attack, I have to throw the weapon. So does the weapon remain in my hand when I throw it or not?

Does a thrown weapon move on it's own or did you use it to throw it?

[ThorOdinson]

Does a thrown weapon move on it's own or did you use it to throw it?

I have to throw the weapon in order to have permission to make a ranged attack.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

So when I throw the weapon, does it remain in my hand or not?

[Garhi]

In order to make a ranged attack the character must throw the weapon.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

We know the weapon has been thrown. We throw the weapon as a requirement for making a ranged Attack.

So when you throw a weapon, does it remain in your hand or not?

Again, you're reading a two step process here where everyone else is only seeing one.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument hinges around:

Step A: Throw the Weapon
Step B: Now that the weapon has been thrown, and is clearly no longer in your hand, you may make a ranged attack with it

Everyone else is reading "throw the weapon to make a ranged attack" as a single element. Throwing the weapon happens as part of making the attack, and the attack, all the way through rolling damage, is instantaneous.

[OzDragon]

I have to throw the weapon in order to have permission to make a ranged attack.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

So when I throw the weapon, does it remain in my hand or not?

One more time, THe attack action is this.

Declare attack, Determine hit or miss, assign damage if hit. Do you see flight time or any other need of permissions in there?

[ThorOdinson]

Again, you're reading a two step process here where everyone else is only seeing one.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument hinges around:

Step A: Throw the Weapon
Step B: Now that the weapon has been thrown, and is clearly no longer in your hand, you may make a ranged attack with it

Everyone else is reading "throw the weapon to make a ranged attack" as a single element. Throwing the weapon happens as part of making the attack, and the attack, all the way through rolling damage, is instantaneous.

The rules say "you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

The rules do not say "you can throw the weapon as part of a ranged Attack".

Are we agreed on the words in the rule book?

Also, I am not finding the word instanteneous in the PHB in reference to this. Can you provide a citation or are you cool with admitting this is a house rule on your part?

One more time, THe attack action is this.

Declare attack, Determine hit or miss, assign damage if hit. Do you see flight time or any other need of permissions in there?

The rules say you must throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. So does the weapon remain in your hand when you throw it?

[Garhi]

The rules say "you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

The rules do not say "you can throw the weapon as part of a ranged Attack".

Are we agreed on the words in the rule book?

My reading of "to make a ranged attack" is "here's a method you can use to make a ranged attack" not "you must do this first before you can make a ranged attack."

To me, you're inserting a then into the rule that doesn't exist.

This is the rule you're describing:

"you can throw the weapon to [then] make a ranged attack."

Also there's this from PHB page 195

Ranged Attacks
When you make a ranged attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance.

This clearly states that you throw your weapon when you make a ranged attack, not before.

[OzDragon]

The rules say "you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

The rules do not say "you can throw the weapon as part of a ranged Attack".

Are we agreed on the words in the rule book?



The rules say you must throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. So does the weapon remain in your hand when you throw it?

Again its been explained to you. It does not matter what the weapon does or where it is after the attack. The attack action is all that matters.

[ThorOdinson]

My reading of "to make a ranged attack" is "here's a method you can use to make a ranged attack" not "you must do this first before you can make a ranged attack."

To me, you're inserting a then into the rule that doesn't exist.

This is the rule you're describing:

"you can throw the weapon to [then] make a ranged attack."

Nope. I am not inserting anything. In order to make a ranged attack, I can throw the weapon. Since I do not have permission otherwise to make a ranged Attack with it, I must throw the weapon in order to make a ranged Attack. The rule is from the Thrown property. If you have not thrown the weapon you cannot make a ranged Attack with it.

Again its been explained to you. It does not matter what the weapon does or where it is after the attack. The attack action is all that matters.

The rule states you throw the weapon in order to make a ranged Attack.

So when you throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack, does it remain in your hand?

[ThorOdinson]

Duplicate post

[OzDragon]

Nope. I am not inserting anything. In order to make a ranged attack, I can throw the weapon. Since I do not have permission otherwise to make a ranged Attack with it, I must throw the weapon in order to make a ranged Attack. The rule is from the Thrown property. If you have not thrown the weapon you cannot make a ranged Attack with it.

No, no, no, no, no, JUST NO!

For the last time...

Attack action, I declare attack (I'm throwing my javalin at creature X) Roll die to determine hit or miss. Do I hit? Yes: roll damage. No: dont roll damage.

There is not a separation of I throw my javalin then i attack it. ITS ALL ONE ACTION!

[Zhorn]

Nope. I am not inserting anything. In order to make a ranged attack, I can throw the weapon. Since I do not have permission otherwise to make a ranged Attack with it, I must throw the weapon in order to make a ranged Attack. The rule is from the Thrown property. If you have not thrown the weapon you cannot make a ranged Attack with it.

To help the folks in this thread understand the way you are interpreting the rule, at what state is the weapon when you make the attack roll

• In hand
• In the air
• (Potentially) colliding with the target depending on the outcome of the roll
• Other?

[ThorOdinson]

No, no, no, no, no, JUST NO!

For the last time...

Attack action, I declare attack (I'm throwing my javalin at creature X) Roll die to determine hit or miss. Do I hit? Yes: roll damage. No: dont roll damage.

There is not a separation of I throw my javalin then i attack it. ITS ALL ONE ACTION!

We are discussing the rules not your emotions.

[OzDragon]

We are discussing the rules not your emotions.

And you are ignoring the rules of the attack action.

[ThorOdinson]

To help the folks in this thread understand the way you are interpreting the rule, at what state is the weapon when you make the attack roll

• In hand
• In the air
• (Potentially) colliding with the target depending on the outcome of the roll
• Other?

The Thrown rule specifies that you throw the weapon in order to make a ranged Attack.

So when you throw a weapon, does it remain in your hand?

And you are ignoring the rules of the attack action.

I am not ignoring rules.

For reference, this is the rule you are ignoring.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

So what happens when you throw the weapon? Does the weapon remain in your hand?

[ThorOdinson]

Dplicate post

[Garhi]

Straight rules quotes:

PHB Page 193-194

Making an Attack
Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.

1. Choose a target ...
2. Determine modifiers...
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage...

This clearly says that melee and ranged attacks are treated exactly the same, and that everything from declaring your target to dealing damage is part of the same action.

PHB Page 195

Ranged Attacks
When you make a ranged attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance.

This rule gives explicit permission to make ranged attacks by throwing weapons. It does not state that you must "hurl a handaxe" as a precondition for making a ranged attack, it states that's what you do when you make the attack.