Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

[OzDragon]

I am not ignoring rules.

For reference, this is the rule you are ignoring.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

So what happens when you throw the weapon? Does the weapon remain in your hand?

So you are saying that throwing a weapon is its own action and making an attack is another action.

So what action type is throwing a weapon an Action, Bonus, Move, or Reaction? Please tell me which.

[OzDragon]

Straight rules quotes:

PHB Page 193-194

This clearly says that melee and ranged attacks are treated exactly the same, and that everything from declaring your target to dealing damage is part of the same action.

PHB Page 195

This rule gives explicit permission to make ranged attacks by throwing weapons. It does not state that you must "hurl a handaxe" as a precondition for making a ranged attack, it states that's what you do when you make the attack.

Ive tried this over and over, he ignores it.

[ThorOdinson]

Straight rules quotes:

PHB Page 193-194

This clearly says that melee and ranged attacks are treated exactly the same, and that everything from declaring your target to dealing damage is part of the same action.

PHB Page 195

This rule gives explicit permission to make ranged attacks by throwing weapons. It does not state that you must "hurl a handaxe" as a precondition for making a ranged attack, it states that's what you do when you make the attack.

You missed two.

Attack

The most Common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.

With this action, you make one melee or ranged Attack. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks.

And this one . . .

If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack.

We are talking about weapons with the Thrown property, correct?

Unless you throw a weapon with the Thrown property you do not elsewhere have permission to make a Ranged attack.

[OzDragon]

You missed two.




And this one . . .



We are talking about weapons with the Thrown property, correct?

Unless you throw a weapon with the Thrown property you do not elsewhere have permission to make a Ranged attack.

...so what type of action is throwing a weapon? I mean since you are so keen on thinking throwing and attack are separate actions.

[Garhi]

You missed two.



And this one . . .


We are talking about weapons with the Thrown property, correct?

Unless you throw a weapon with the Thrown property you do not elsewhere have permission to make a Ranged attack.

Under making a ranged attack the rules clearly state that you may "hurl a handaxe." That can quite reasonably be extrapolated to apply to all thrown weapons. It also states that you throw your weapon "when you make a ranged attack." It does not state that you first throw your weapon, and then are allowed to make a ranged attack.

[ThorOdinson]

Under making a ranged attack the rules clearly state that you may "hurl a handaxe." That can quite reasonably be extrapolated to apply to all thrown weapons. It also states that you throw your weapon "when you make a ranged attack." It does not state that you first throw your weapon, and then are allowed to make a ranged attack.

Interesting. You seem to be suggesting that we can skip rules and definitions stated in sections of the PHB that define the current rules context.

Let's start from the beginning.

Actions in Combat

When you take your action on Your Turn, you can take one of the Actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a Special feature, or an action that you improvise. [...]

Attack

The most Common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.

With this action, you make one melee or ranged Attack. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks.

Take special notice of what I have underlined as this is a chain of permission that you must follow.

And you must adhere to this one in order to have permission to make a Ranged Attack with a weapon with the Thrown property.

If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack.

[OzDragon]

Interesting. You seem to be suggesting that we can skip rules and definitions stated in sections of the PHB that define the current rules context.

Let's start from the beginning.



And you must adhere to this one in order to have permission to make a Ranged Attack.

You don't need "permission" to make a ranged attack. Per the rules you say you follow. You state you are making an attack melee or ranged then roll dice. There is nothing else required.

[Garhi]

Interesting. You seem to be suggesting that we can skip rules and definitions stated in sections of the PHB that define the current rules context.

Let's start from the beginning.



And you must adhere to this one in order to have permission to make a Ranged Attack.

Step 1 of "Making an Attack" is declaring a target yes?

If you have to first throw your weapon before you are "given permission" to make a ranged attack, it follows that you have to throw your weapon before declaring a target, yes?

What exactly are you throwing your weapon at in this scenario?

You also still haven't answered the question of what sort of action this "pre attack action weapon throw" is.

[ThorOdinson]

Step 1 of "Making an Attack" is declaring a target yes?

If you have to first throw your weapon before you are "given permission" to make a ranged attack, it follows that you have to throw your weapon before declaring a target, yes?

What exactly are you throwing your weapon at in this scenario?

You also still haven't answered the question of what sort of action this "pre attack action weapon throw" is.

You have skipped rules you are not allowed to skip.

First, what are the names of the actions you are allowed to make in combat? What action do you take? What are the rules associated with that action category by definition?

For the answers consult my post immediately above this one.

Let's step through the permissions one by one.

[OzDragon]

You have skipped rules you are not allowed to skip.

First, what are the names of the actions you are allowed to make in combat? What action do you take? What are the rules associated with that action category by definition?

For the answers consult my post immediately above this one.

Let's step through the permissions one by one.

Now I know for a fact you are trolling.

It has been stated to you with the actual book pages and cut/paste numerous times. You refuse to acknowledge evidence that does no agree with you and change your story to go a different direction with the argument to try to get agreement.

I'll state this for the persons still reading this.
You can use thrown weapons and benefit from the dueling fighting style.

Everyone who is going to continue this topic even Thor have a wonderful evening.

[ThorOdinson]

Now I know for a fact you are trolling.

It has been stated to you with the actual book pages and cut/paste numerous times. You refuse to acknowledge evidence that does no agree with you and change your story to go a different direction with the argument to try to get agreement.

I'll state this for the persons still reading this.
You can use thrown weapons and benefit from the dueling fighting style.

Everyone who is going to continue this topic even Thor have a wonderful evening.

I quoted rules that you cannot ignore. Let's start from the beginning. We are in combat. What is the list of actions you can take? What is the action you take? What are the requirements of that action?

Just look at the PHB or my post above for a quick peak at the rules you must follow.


Or are you advocating we can skip rules? Please clarify.

[Valmark]

"you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack" doesn't mean that you first throw the weapon, then make a ranged attack.

If I say "you can use the pencil to do your homework" I'm not using the pencil, then doing my homework. I'm using it while I do my homework.

[ThorOdinson]

"you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack" doesn't mean that you first throw the weapon, then make a ranged attack.

If I say "you can use the pencil to do your homework" I'm not using the pencil, then doing my homework. I'm using it while I do my homework.

Check my above posts. We need to examine everything in the context of permissions granted by the the rules. We do not have permission to skip rules. Please respond to my above posts.

Or are you advocating we can ignore rules?

[Valmark]

Check my above posts. We need to examine everything in the context of permissions granted by the the rules. We do not have permission to skip rules. Please respond to my above posts.

Or are you advocating we can ignore rules?

I pointed out the error in your reading of the rule so no, I'm not saying to ignore it xD

[ThorOdinson]

I pointed out the error in your reading of the rule so no, I'm not saying to ignore it xD

Ok. You have agreed to not ignore rules.

Let's start from the beginning. We are in combat. What is the list of actions you can take?

[OzDragon]

I quoted rules that you cannot ignore. Let's start from the beginning. We are in combat. What is the list of actions you can take? What is the action you take? What are the requirements of that action?

Just look at the PHB or my post above for a quick peak at the rules you must follow.


Or are you advocating we can skip rules? Please clarify.

You know what sure...lets do this the long way.

The only action here that matters is the attack action.

FROM PHB PG 193-195
Attack
The most Common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.
With this action, you make one melee or ranged Attack. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks.

Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the Fighter, allow you to make more than one Attack with this action.

Making an Attack
Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or Making an Attack roll as part of a spell, an Attack has a simple structure.

Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location.
Determine modifiers. The GM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, Spells, Special Abilities, and other Effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your Attack roll.
Resolve the Attack. You make the Attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular Attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause Special Effects in addition to or instead of damage.

If there’s ever any question whether something you’re doing counts as an Attack, the rule is simple: if you’re Making an Attack roll, you’re Making an Attack.


Please show me in there where it states that there is a specific action for throwing a weapon that precedes attacking with it? Also what specific action is this "throwing action" that you state is required for a ranged attack?(I've asked this before and you ignored.)

If you have an specific evidence that you are correct please post it. Other than that what you have posted does not follow rules as written as you state you follow to the letter.

What you are arguing is Rules as Interpreted by you. Everyone in this post has told you what you are stating is wrong. They have given evidence that proves what you are saying is incorrect.

Yet you still want to argue small strange things like what is a specific persons definition of wield or the most recent you have to throw prior to attacking. You are just arguing to argue now.

If you don't get it by now that you are incorrect I don't know what to tell you.

[ThorOdinson]

You know what sure...lets do this the long way.

The only action here that matters is the attack action.

FROM PHB PG 193-195
Attack
The most Common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.
With this action, you make one melee or ranged Attack. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks.

Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the Fighter, allow you to make more than one Attack with this action.

Making an Attack
Whether you’re striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or Making an Attack roll as part of a spell, an Attack has a simple structure.

Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location.
Determine modifiers. The GM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, Spells, Special Abilities, and other Effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your Attack roll.
Resolve the Attack. You make the Attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular Attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause Special Effects in addition to or instead of damage.

If there’s ever any question whether something you’re doing counts as an Attack, the rule is simple: if you’re Making an Attack roll, you’re Making an Attack.


Please show me in there where it states that there is a specific action for throwing a weapon that precedes attacking with it? Also what specific action is this "throwing action" that you state is required for a ranged attack?(I've asked this before and you ignored.)

If you have an specific evidence that you are correct please post it. Other than that what you have posted does not follow rules as written as you state you follow to the letter.

What you are arguing is Rules as Interpreted by you. Everyone in this post has told you what you are stating is wrong. They have given evidence that proves what you are saying is incorrect.

Yet you still want to argue small strange things like what is a specific persons definition of wield or the most recent you have to throw prior to attacking. You are just arguing to argue now.

If you don't get it by now that you are incorrect I don't know what to tell you.

Can you agree to follow the rules in the PHB?

Let's step through our permissions.

[Mr Adventurer]

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions

[ThorOdinson]

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions

Indeed! Well put!

[Zhorn]

Indeed! Well put!

sounds like an admission of guilt to me

[ThorOdinson]

sounds like an admission of guilt to me

I am following the rules as they are written. Happy to defend my position.

Tabaxi/Divination 18/ Paladin 2 is still my pick. Mobility.

Code name: Obi-Wan

[JNAProductions]

ThorOdinson has not done us the same courtesy we have done them.

When asked to respond to points or directly answer questions, they evade and dismiss. I would suggest anyone still posting in this thread cease responding to them-it ain't worth it.

I do hope that the original poster got a good answer-if anyone can remember fifteen pages back. :P

[Segev]

Again. You have it backwards.

The Dueling fighting style has a conditional that needs to be met before it can be applied.

You have not shown me text in the rules that says it is wielded by a different number of hands at the damage roll than at the start of the attack. Therefore, your decision that it is not wielded in one hand when the damage roll is made, despite being wielded in one hand when the attack begins, is a house rule, by your definition of house rules.

[Aett_Thorn]

There are basically two ways of reading RAW on this, because there is no game-identified definition of wielding. So you can either define it as being in hand and ready to be used, or just being used by a person. Neither reading is a houserule, just a ruling because the wording isn't clear.

HOWEVER, one reading causes very few problems with other game mechanics, while the other causes no issues, so which one do you think that we should use?

[ThorOdinson]

You have not shown me text in the rules that says it is wielded by a different number of hands at the damage roll than at the start of the attack. Therefore, your decision that it is not wielded in one hand when the damage roll is made, despite being wielded in one hand when the attack begins, is a house rule, by your definition of house rules.

Let's start from the beginning. Let's establish what permissions we have in the rules.

Actions in Combat

When you take your action on Your Turn, you can take one of the Actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a Special feature, or an action that you improvise. [...]

Attack

The most Common action to take in combat is the Attack action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists.

With this action, you make one melee or ranged Attack. See the “Making an Attack” section for the rules that govern attacks.

Take special notice of what I have underlined as this is a chain of permission that you must follow.

You are in combat. You have a list of actions you can make. You must take the Attack action. (Notice the capitalization)

When you take the Attack action you are required to choose between making one melee Attack or making one ranged Attack.

And you must adhere to the following rule in order to have permission to make a Ranged Attack with a weapon with the Thrown property.

If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack.

The above Thrown rule is what gives you the permission to make a ranged Attack. In order to make a ranged Attack, you must "throw the weapon".

When you throw the weapon, does the weapon leave the hand or does it remain in hand?

There are basically two ways of reading RAW on this, because there is no game-identified definition of wielding. So you can either define it as being in hand and ready to be used, or just being used by a person. Neither reading is a houserule, just a ruling because the wording isn't clear.

HOWEVER, one reading causes very few problems with other game mechanics, while the other causes no issues, so which one do you think that we should use?

You are misrepresenting my argument. My argument does not rely on any particular definition of "wield". I have stated this several times and have shown that my argument does not rely on any particular definition of "wield". Please keep up with the thread and do not misrepresent my argument.

In order to make a ranged Attack with a weapon with the Thrown property, a character must throw the weapon.

[Garhi]

This all boils down to a disagreement over how to interpret the phrase "you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

TO is reading this as an if/then construct. IF you throw your weapon, you are THEN given permission to make a ranged attack.

Everyone else is reading it akin to this: "as a way of making a ranged attack, you can throw your weapon."

The difference is whether the weapon is thrown before the attack initiates or not.

Under the if/then reading, you throw your weapon before declaring your target (declaring your target is part of the rules for "making an attack.") TO, can you see how we might find that reading as completely nonsensical? What exactly are you throwing your weapon at if you haven't yet been "given permission" to declare a target?

[ThorOdinson]

This all boils down to a disagreement over how to interpret the phrase "you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

TO is reading this as an if/then construct. IF you throw your weapon, you are THEN given permission to make a ranged attack.

Everyone else is reading it akin to this: "as a way of making a ranged attack, you can throw your weapon."

The difference is whether the weapon is thrown before the attack initiates or not.

Under the if/then reading, you throw your weapon before declaring your target (declaring your target is part of the rules for "making an attack.") TO, can you see how we might find that reading as completely nonsensical? What exactly are you throwing your weapon at if you haven't yet been "given permission" to declare a target?

I am not inserting an if then statement. You are ignoring your need for permission.

You don't have permission to make a ranged Attack unless you throw the weapon.

Or are you suggesting we ignore the rules?

[Garhi]

You don't have permission to make a ranged Attack unless you throw the weapon.

Or are you suggesting we ignore the rules?

I'm stating that your reading of the rule as an if/then construct is not the only valid way of reading the rule.

Your reading of the rule is in direct contradiction with the rules for ranged attacks on page 195.

When you make a ranged attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance.

This rule very clearly states that I have permission to throw my weapon when I make a ranged attack. Not before, when.

[ThorOdinson]

I'm stating that your reading of the rule as an if/then construct is not the only valid way of reading the rule.

Your reading of the rule is in direct contradiction with the rules for ranged attacks on page 195.



This rule very clearly states that I have permission to throw my weapon when I make a ranged attack. Not before, when.

This is the rule you are ignoring . . .

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

In order to make a ranged Attack you must throw the weapon.

Or are you suggesting we ignore the rules?

[Garhi]

This is the rule you are ignoring . . .

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

In order to make a ranged Attack you must throw the weapon.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm reading it within the context of the rules for ranged attacks, and coming to a different conclusion about what it says than you are.

Your reading of it contradicts another rule in the book, and leads to the nonsensical situation of throwing your weapon before declaring your target.