Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

[Segev]

Let's start from the beginning. Let's establish what permissions we have in the rules.

Please show me where the rules state that you need "permissions."

You're relying on this - a house rule of yours, by your definition of "house rules" - to formulate your interpretation of the RAW.

I don't see "permissions." I see "procedures."

The procedure outlined is that you select a weapon you are legally wielding, make decisions such as how many hands it's wielded in and what creature in range of the weapon to target, make an attack roll, and, if you hit, make a damage roll.

You're trying to discuss "permissions," but nothing in the RAW that you quote mentions "permission." It simply says what you do. Therefore, your entire discussion of "permissions" is a house rule, per your definition of "house rules" being "adding things to the rules that aren't written in them."

[ThorOdinson]

Please show me where the rules state that you need "permissions."

You're relying on this - a house rule of yours, by your definition of "house rules" - to formulate your interpretation of the RAW.

I don't see "permissions." I see "procedures."

The procedure outlined is that you select a weapon you are legally wielding, make decisions such as how many hands it's wielded in and what creature in range of the weapon to target, make an attack roll, and, if you hit, make a damage roll.

You're trying to discuss "permissions," but nothing in the RAW that you quote mentions "permission." It simply says what you do. Therefore, your entire discussion of "permissions" is a house rule, per your definition of "house rules" being "adding things to the rules that aren't written in them."

You are ignoring this rule.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

The statement is a rule. It has a "can" statement in it. It is a permission statement that you must satisfy in order to get the benefit of the rule.

You can do X to Y.

If you dont throw the Thrown weapon, you CANNOT make a ranged Attack with that Thrown weapon.

[Segev]

You are ignoring this rule.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

The statement is a rule. It has a "can" statement in it. It is a permission statement that you must satisfy in order to get the benefit of the rule.

You can do X to Y.

If you dont throw the Thrown weapon, you CANNOT make a ranged Attack with that Thrown weapon.

Correct. A ranged attack with a thrown weapon involves throwing the weapon. This is almost a tautology. Please show me in the rules where it specifies that you are wielding the weapon in a different number of hands between the start of the attack and the damage roll.

[Garhi]

You are ignoring this rule.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

The statement is a rule. It has a "can" statement in it. It is a permission statement that you must satisfy in order to get the benefit of the rule.

You can do X to Y.

If you dont throw the Thrown weapon, you CANNOT make a ranged Attack with that Thrown weapon.

That's not the only natural language way of reading "You can do X to Y."

To use an example from earlier in the thread: "You can use a pencil to do your homework."

You're not first using your pencil, and then once that action is done proceeding to do your homework. You're using your pencil while doing your homework.

"you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack" can just as validly be read as "you throw your weapon while making a ranged attack"

[OzDragon]

You are ignoring this rule.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

The statement is a rule. It has a "can" statement in it. It is a permission statement that you must satisfy in order to get the benefit of the rule.

You can do X to Y.

If you dont throw the Thrown weapon, you CANNOT make a ranged Attack with that Thrown weapon.

Emphasis mine.

I'll ask this one last time since you have ignored it for what ever reason.

What type of action is "throwing a weapon" since you are separating throwing a weapon and making a ranged attack with it?

[Segev]

That's not the only natural language way of reading "You can do X to Y."

To use an example from earlier in the thread: "You can use a pencil to do your homework."

You're not first using your pencil, and then once that action is done proceeding to do your homework. You're using your pencil while doing your homework.

"you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack" can just as validly be read as "you throw your weapon while making a ranged attack"

Exactly; good point, Garhi.

Another way to read what ThorOdinson is quoting is, "you can make a ranged attack by throwing the weapon." That is, one of the things you can do is make a ranged attack by taking advantage of the weapon's Thrown property.

[ThorOdinson]

Exactly; good point, Garhi.

Another way to read what ThorOdinson is quoting is, "you can make a ranged attack by throwing the weapon." That is, one of the things you can do is make a ranged attack by taking advantage of the weapon's Thrown property.

You don't have permission to make a ranged Attack with a Thrown weapon unless you throw it.

If you feel otherwise prove your case by tracing an alternate path of permission. I traced a path of permission in my posts above.

As it is, you are ignoring satisfying the only rule which gives you permission.

[Garhi]

You don't have permission to make a ranged Attack with a Thrown weapon unless you throw it.

If you feel otherwise prove your case by tracing an alternate path of permission. I traced a path of permission in my posts above.

As it is, you are ignoring satisfying the only rule which gives you permission.

Using your "path of permission" you are in direct contradiction of the rules for Ranged Attacks which state that "When you make a ranged attack you... hurl a handaxe ..." In you're scenario you've already thrown your weapon, you can't throw it again. Do you deny this?

Using your "path of permission" you must throw your weapon before the rules for making an attack kick in. Step 1 of those rules is declaring a target, thus you have thrown your weapon before you have declared your target. Do you deny this?

[Segev]

You don't have permission to make a ranged Attack with a Thrown weapon unless you throw it.

If you feel otherwise prove your case by tracing an alternate path of permission. I traced a path of permission in my posts above.

As it is, you are ignoring satisfying the only rule which gives you permission.

Having the thrown tag enables you to make a ranged attack by throwing the weapon. Therefore, with a weapon with the "thrown" tag, you may treat any creature within the weapon's range as in range of an attack with that weapon. You make a ranged attack with the thrown weapon by picking a target, rolling to hit, and then, if you hit, rolling damage. After the attack is resolved, having thrown the weapon, you no longer are wielding it and have the hand(s) that did so free.

Nothing in that is adding text to the RAW. You are adding text to the RAW when you say you must throw it and then make an attack. The RAW merely state that you can throw it to make a ranged attack. It says nothing about throwing it being a separate act you do before making the ranged attack.

[ThorOdinson]

Using your "path of permission" you are in direct contradiction of the rules for Ranged Attacks which state that "When you make a ranged attack you... hurl a handaxe ..." In you're scenario you've already thrown your weapon, you can't throw it again. Do you deny this?

Using your "path of permission" you must throw your weapon before the rules for making an attack kick in. Step 1 of those rules is declaring a target, thus you have thrown your weapon before you have declared your target. Do you deny this?

You don't have access to the rules you are referring to unless you satisfy the permission of the Thrown rule.

You must throw the weapon to make the ranged Attack.

If you do not throw the weapon you cannot make a ranged Attack.

[Garhi]

You don't have access to the rules you are referring to unless you satisfy the permission of the Thrown rule.

You must throw the weapon to make the ranged Attack.

If you do not throw the weapon you cannot make a ranged Attack.

I'm following your permission chain. By your definitions you have already thrown the weapon and "received permission" to make a ranged attack at this point.

[OzDragon]

Emphasis mine.

I'll ask this one last time since you have ignored it for what ever reason.

What type of action is "throwing a weapon" since you are separating throwing a weapon and making a ranged attack with it?

You don't have access to the rules you are referring to unless you satisfy the permission of the Thrown rule.

You must throw the weapon to make the ranged Attack.

If you do not throw the weapon you cannot make a ranged Attack.

Read Emphasis.

[ThorOdinson]

I'm following your permission chain. By your definitions you have already thrown the weapon and "received permission" to make a ranged attack at this point.

In order to make the ranged Attack you throw the weapon. I don't see any issues with the rules you now have access to. If you do not throw the weapon you cannot make the ranged Attack. Before you can make the ranged Attack by making the attack roll the weapon has to have indeed been thrown.

Read Emphasis.

You are getting confused and using the rules in bizarre ways.

Describe what physically transpires for the character when they make a ranged Attack with a Thrown weapon. You will find yourself describing a throw.

[Garhi]

In order to make the ranged Attack you throw the weapon. I don't see any issues with the rules you now have access to. If you do not throw the weapon you cannot make the ranged Attack. Before you can make the ranged Attack by making the attack roll the weapon has to have indeed been thrown.

Declaring your target is the first step in "making an attack."

By your definitions, you have thrown your weapon before you have declared your target. You don't see any issues with this scenario? What did you throw your weapon at?

Page 195 clearly states "When you make a ranged attack, you ... hurl a handaxe ..."

By your definitions you have already thrown your weapon, and thus can not satisfy this rule under "ranged attacks."

[OzDragon]

In order to make the ranged Attack you throw the weapon. I don't see any issues with the rules you now have access to. If you do not throw the weapon you cannot make the ranged Attack. Before you can make the ranged Attack by making the attack roll the weapon has to have indeed been thrown.



You are getting confused and using the rules in bizarre ways.

Describe what physically transpires for the character when they make a ranged Attack with a Thrown weapon. You will find yourself describing a throw.

So, it has been posted numerous numerous times what the attack action is. But just for fun ill paraphrase.

Declare attack(melee, ranged, or spell), roll for hit or miss, assign damage.

Throwing a weapon is a ranged attack. Shooting a bow is a ranged attack, you dont have to first draw the string back and knock an arrow to make a ranged attack.

You are making separations in actions that do not exist and arguing phrasing in a way that suits your argument and not in a way that's logical.

IF we go by your statements I would first have to throw my javalin then attack with my javalin when it is one action. I attack with my javalin by throwing it.

SO again answer the question please. If I must first throw my javalin then attack with it "what kind of action is throwing a javalin"?

Also what physically transpires in an action is not in the rules only the action.(added)

[ThorOdinson]

Declaring your target is the first step in "making an attack."

By your definitions, you have thrown your weapon before you have declared your target. You don't see any issues with this scenario? What did you throw your weapon at?

Page 195 clearly states "When you make a ranged attack, you ... hurl a handaxe ..."

By your definitions you have already thrown your weapon, and thus can not satisfy this rule under "ranged attacks."

Please quote the entireity of the "rule" that is actually describing the state of affairs which is wholly consistent with the Thrown weapon rules. The statement is correlating a game term with a set of plausible "physical actions" that occur logically.

The ranged Attack is the throw/hurl. Ranged Attack is a game term describing a "physical" action and logical event that must happen in order to make a ranged Attack.

When you are making a ranged Attack with a Thrown weapon, the weapon has to be logically considered thrown in the game state or you cannot make the Attack roll.

Not surprisingly, making a ranged Attack with a Thrown weapon involves throwing that weapon.

[Segev]

When you are making a ranged Attack with a Thrown weapon, the weapon has to be logically considered thrown in the game state or you cannot make the Attack roll.

Incorrect. When making a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, the weapon has to be thrown as part of the attack. By your definition of house rules, you are house ruling that it must be "considered thrown in the game state" prior to making the attack.

If you wish to prove otherwise, quote rules which say it is "considered thrown in the game state" prior to an attack being made.

Consider that this means you're asserting that you throw the weapon, and then make an attack with it after having thrown it, as well.

[ThorOdinson]

So, it has been posted numerous numerous times what the attack action is. But just for fun ill paraphrase.

Declare attack(melee, ranged, or spell), roll for hit or miss, assign damage.

Throwing a weapon is a ranged attack. Shooting a bow is a ranged attack, you dont have to first draw the string back and knock an arrow to make a ranged attack.

You are making separations in actions that do not exist and arguing phrasing in a way that suits your argument and not in a way that's logical.

IF we go by your statements I would first have to throw my javalin then attack with my javalin when it is one action. I attack with my javalin by throwing it.

SO again answer the question please. If I must first throw my javalin then attack with it "what kind of action is throwing a javalin"?

Also what physically transpires in an action is not in the rules only the action.(added)

Again you are getting confused.

The throwing of the weapon is the ranged Attack.

You can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack.

You can punch an opponent to make an unarmed Attack.

You can swing a sword to make a melee Attack.

[Valmark]

In order to make the ranged Attack you throw the weapon. I don't see any issues with the rules you now have access to. If you do not throw the weapon you cannot make the ranged Attack. Before you can make the ranged Attack by making the attack roll the weapon has to have indeed been thrown.

You are getting confused and using the rules in bizarre ways.

Describe what physically transpires for the character when they make a ranged Attack with a Thrown weapon. You will find yourself describing a throw.

Again you are getting confused.

The throwing of the weapon is the ranged Attack.

You can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack.

You can punch an opponent to make an unarmed Attack.

You can swing a sword to make a melee Attack.

Emphasis mine. Could you please pick one stance instead of changing your version whenever it suits you?

[OzDragon]

Again you are getting confused.

The throwing of the weapon is the ranged Attack.

You can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack.

You can punch an opponent to make an unarmed Attack.

You can swing a sword to make a melee Attack.

No you are the one confused here,

Throwing a weapon IS a ranged attack

Punching and opponent IS a melee attack

Swinging a sword IS a melee attack

Also why do you completely ignore my question. If throwing a weapon must happen before a ranged attack, What kind of action is throwing a wepaon?

[ThorOdinson]

Incorrect. When making a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, the weapon has to be thrown as part of the attack. By your definition of house rules, you are house ruling that it must be "considered thrown in the game state" prior to making the attack.

If you wish to prove otherwise, quote rules which say it is "considered thrown in the game state" prior to an attack being made.

Consider that this means you're asserting that you throw the weapon, and then make an attack with it after having thrown it, as well.

Again you are confusing yourself here.

The rules give you permission to throw a weapon to make a ranged Attack. The "throw a weapon" is what happens in the game state to the character logically in relation to his weapon. The "make a ranged Attack" is a procedure of steps to resolve that event done by the player at the table, not the character.

Or are you suggesting that the characters are making dice rolls in game?

[ThorOdinson]

No you are the one confused here,

Throwing a weapon IS a ranged attack

Punching and opponent IS a melee attack

Swinging a sword IS a melee attack

Also why do you completely ignore my question. If throwing a weapon must happen before a ranged attack, What kind of action is throwing a wepaon?

You are confusing character action with player action.

[OzDragon]

Again you are confusing yourself here.

The rules give you permission to throw a weapon to make a ranged Attack. The "throw a weapon" is what happens in the game state to the character logically in relation to his weapon. The "make a ranged Attack" is a procedure of steps to resolve that event done by the player at the table, not the character.

Or are you suggesting that the characters are making dice rolls in game?

We are discussing mechanics not narrative. If you want to argue narrative points that's a whole different discussion. You just keep changing the argument to keep arguing.

[Segev]

Again you are confusing yourself here.

The rules give you permission to throw a weapon to make a ranged Attack. The "throw a weapon" is what happens in the game state to the character logically in relation to his weapon. The "make a ranged Attack" is a procedure of steps to resolve that event done by the player at the table, not the character.

Or are you suggesting that the characters are making dice rolls in game?

No. You are, however, conflating the two, and then accusing me of doing so. You have previously refused to engage with me on the parallel states of mechanics versus narrative/fiction.

Throwing a thrown melee weapon is a ranged attack. Can we agree on this?

[ThorOdinson]

No. You are, however, conflating the two, and then accusing me of doing so. You have previously refused to engage with me on the parallel states of mechanics versus narrative/fiction.

Throwing a thrown melee weapon is a ranged attack. Can we agree on this?

First, can we agree that characters are not making dice rolls in game? Players are making dice rolls at the table, not characters in game, agreed?

[Segev]

First, can we agree that characters are not making dice rolls in game? Players are making dice rolls at the table, not characters in game, agreed?

I long ago asserted something to this effect. Please stop trying to divert from the question I asked.

[OzDragon]

First, can we agree that characters are not making dice rolls in game? Players are making dice rolls at the table, not characters in game, agreed?

No, we can not because that is not the argument. The argument is, can you use a thrown weapon with the dueling fighting style and get the +2 damage.

The question has been answered and discussed ad nauseam. You are the one who keeps changing the argument to fit your theory.

The concensus answer and the RAW answer to most people is Yes you can throw and weapon and benefit from the dueling style.

[ff7hero]

First, can we agree that characters are not making dice rolls in game? Players are making dice rolls at the table, not characters in game, agreed?

I'll agree to this, and point out the dice of the player whose character is throwing a weapon serve a narrative and mechanical purpose (all dice do, or should, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion).

They determine whether the weapon strikes (or hampers, HP might not be meat) its intended target (attack or colloquially "to hit" roll) and how "lethal" (again, HP might not be meat) a "hit" is ("damage" roll). To me, it is more logical to determine both of these outcomes at the moment when the throw is made, not when the weapon has already traveled to the target.

[ThorOdinson]

I'll agree to this, and point out the dice of the player whose character is throwing a weapon serve a narrative and mechanical purpose (all dice do, or should, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion).

They determine whether the weapon strikes (or hampers, HP might not be meat) its intended target (attack or colloquially "to hit" roll) and how "lethal" (again, HP might not be meat) a "hit" is ("damage" roll). To me, it is more logical to determine both of these outcomes at the moment when the throw is made, not when the weapon has already traveled to the target.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

Reads . . .

"If a weapon has the thrown property, [the character in game] can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack [which is a table event resolved by the player at the table]."

[OzDragon]

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

Reads . . .

"If a weapon has the thrown property, [the character in game] can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack [which is a table event resolved by the player at the table]."

Mechanics and narrative are separate. Mechanics deal with rules which is what we are discussing here. Narrative is story which you are throwing in the mix has no bearing on the discussion.