Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

[ThorOdinson]

Mechanics and narrative are separate. Mechanics deal with rules which is what we are discussing here. Narrative is story which you are throwing in the mix has no bearing on the discussion.

No. The rules cause changes in the game state of the character. If the character has a bag of holding and puts an object in the bag, the character cannot consider the object in his hand.

Or are you saying that an object placed in a bag of holding is also in your hand?

[OzDragon]

No. The rules cause changes in the game state of the character. If the character has a bag of holding and puts an object in the bag, the character cannot consider the object in his hand.

Or are you saying that an object placed in a bag of holding is also in your hand?

HAHAHAHA! I can't help but laugh now, You have completely stopped discussing the issue at hand and just started wandering around grasping at straws.

[ThorOdinson]

HAHAHAHA! I can't help but laugh now, You have completely stopped discussing the issue at hand and just started wandering around grasping at straws.

If your character gives money to a shopkeeper for a suit of armor, he doesn't still have the money to spend on other things.

If your character drops an object, he no longer has that object in his hand.

If your character uses a scroll, the scroll is destroyed. He doesn't still get to have the scroll.

If your character throws a weapon he doesn't get to still have the weapon in his hand.

[OzDragon]

If your character gives money to a shopkeeper for a suit of armor, he doesn't still have the money to spend on other things.

If your character drops an object, he no longer has that object in his hand.

If your character uses a scroll, the scroll is destroyed. He diesn't still get to have the scroll.

If your character throws a weapon he doesn't get to still have the weapon in his hand.

The attack was made with a one hand melee weapon in hand (melee or ranged) It gets the benefit of dueling. What happens after the attack does not matter. The attack action is all that matters.

[ThorOdinson]

The attack was made with a one hand melee weapon in hand (melee or ranged) It gets the benefit of dueling. What happens after the attack does not matter. The attack action is all that matters.

The character throws the weapon in order to make the ranged Attack.

If a character throws a weapon, does the weapon remain in the character's hand?

[OzDragon]

The character throws the weapon in order to make the ranged Attack.

If a character throws a weapon, does the weapon remain in the character's hand?

Throwing a weapon IS an attack

The attack action is all that matters.

[OzDragon]

The character throws the weapon in order to make the ranged Attack.

If a character throws a weapon, does the weapon remain in the character's hand?

Also again, What action is throwing a weapon in this scenario?

[ThorOdinson]

Throwing a weapon IS an attack

The attack action is all that matters.

You are ignoring this rule.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

According to you, players can ignore rules. You are welcome to play that way. I play according to the rules. To each his own.

[OzDragon]

You are ignoring this rule.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

According to you, players can ignore rules. You are welcome to play that way. I play according to the rules. To each his own.

Again, In this scenario what action is Throwing a weapon if it is not part of the attack????

[ThorOdinson]

Again, In this scenario what action is Throwing a weapon if it is not part of the attack????

You are confusing character with player again.

Do characters make dice rolls in game to attack creatures? Do players hurl axes at other players at the table?

[OzDragon]

You are confusing character with player again.

Do characters make dice rolls in game to attack creatures? Do players hurl axes at other player at the table?

No you are the one separating throwing and attacking. Its all the same action.

As you posted "you can throw a weapon to make a ranged attack" (meaning throwing a weapon is a ranged attack)

[ThorOdinson]

No you are the one separating throwing and attacking. Its all the same action.

As you posted "you can throw a weapon to make a ranged attack" (meaning throwing a weapon is a ranged attack)

Again, you are confusing character and player.

Throwing a weapon is something the character does.

Making a ranged Attack is something the player does by following a procedure involving dice.

The character does not roll any dice in game.

The player who is sitting at the table playing D&D does not throw a weapon at the DM.

[OzDragon]

Again, you are confusing character and player.

Throwing a weapon is something the character does.

Making a ranged Attack is something the player does by following a procedure involving dice.

The character does not roll any dice in game.

The player does not throw a weapon at the DM at the table.

This has nothing to do with the character.

Thrown
If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that Attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee Attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a Handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a Dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the Dagger has the finesse property.

This is an attack action.

[ThorOdinson]

This has nothing to do with the character.

Thrown
If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that Attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee Attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a Handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a Dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the Dagger has the finesse property.

This is an attack action.

So the player at the table is throwing a weapon at another player at the table?

Please clarify.

[OzDragon]

So the player at the table is throwing a weapon at another player at the table?

Please clarify.

You really like to ignore and redirect a lot don't you.

[ThorOdinson]

You really like to ignore and redirect a lot don't you.

I am not redirecting. I cannot answer questions posed by you that demonstrate profound issues of confusion. We must first remove the confusion.

In this rule . . .

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

Does "you" refer to "you (the character in game)" or "you (the player at the table)"?

[OzDragon]

I am not redirecting. I cannot answer questions posed by you that demonstrate profound issues of confusion. We must first remove the confusion.

In this rule . . .

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

Does "you" refer to "you (the character in game)" or "you (the player at the table)"?

If you can't make that distinction that is on you.

[ThorOdinson]

If you can't make that distinction that is on you.

I am not having problems distinguishing between character and player.

In this rule . .

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

"You" refers to "you (the character in game)".

Do you agree?

[Aett_Thorn]

I am not having problems distinguishing between character and player.

In this rule . .

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

"You" refers to "you (the character in game)".

Do you agree?

I’ll answer your question if you ever answer the many, many questions that have been posited in your direction.

[KorvinStarmast]

The OP asked two 'quick questions' (See the title)
Seventeen pages later, here we are.
I think that collectively, pretty much every point related to the two questions has been addressed at some time during the discussion.

OP, did you get what you came for?

[Segev]

ThorOdinson, you haven’t answered the questions posed to you. Why do you expect anybody to answer yours, if you will not do them the same courtesy?

Nevertheless, here is what is happening:

The character throws the javelin (for example) as part of making a ranged attack. The character, not the player, is wielding the javelin in one hand for this attack.

The player, representing the attack, rolls to hit, and, if the result indicates a hit, rolls damage.

The players (including the DM) update the game state to reflect the resolution of the attack, including any hit points lost and the fact that the weapon, having been thrown, is no longer wielded by the character.

Your house rule, by your definition of house rules, is to add to the rules a requirement that the state of the game be updated between the decision to throw the weapon to make the attack, and the damage roll of the attack. Nothing in the rules says that’s when you update the game state.

In fact, doing so leads to a situation like one you hold up as ridiculous: you can no more attack with a weapon that is not in hand because you threw it than you can a weapon that you have placed into a bag of holding.

There is no permission given to take extra impossible actions, even under your “permissions” house rule, for having thrown the weapon. The rule is clearly stating that the owning the weapon as part of the attack enables it to be ranged. That’s it. The rest is your own house rule by your own definition of a house rule.

Trying to force us to walk through your reasoning as if we can’t follow it is boring and pointless. We grasp your argument. We just find it to be wrong. You need to engage with our objections to it if you want any hope of persuading us that your argument is more right than we think. You will get nowhere by repeating it and pretending that we are not understanding you.

You can engage with our objections to your argument by answering any of our questions about it.

I think the best one would be: what kind of action is throwing the javelin, in your formulation of the mechanics?

If you think there is a fundamentally flawed assumption in that question, you can say so and explain what it is. Demanding we answer a seemingly-juvenile question that implies we’re unable to tell apart the PC and the player is not going to work; it comes off as a deflection (and a rather insulting one, at that). You may not mean it to, but it does.

Answer the question. Reject the premise if you must, but answer it. If you reject the premise and explain why, we can engage on the subject of why you reject the premise and make progress.

[ThorOdinson]

You can engage with our objections to your argument by answering any of our questions about it.

I think the best one would be: what kind of action is throwing the javelin, in your formulation of the mechanics?

If you think there is a fundamentally flawed assumption in that question, you can say so and explain what it is.

I need you to clarify something about your question first.

When a character throws a weapon does the weapon remain in hand?

[OzDragon]

I need you to clarify something about your question first.

When a character throws a weapon does the weapon remain in hand?

What you are describing happens after the attack. The attack action is all that matters.

The action in this case throwing a weapon at an enemy is the attack action.

Now please answer the question.

[ThorOdinson]

What you are describing happens after the attack. The attack action is all that matters.

The action in this case throwing a weapon at an enemy is the attack action.

Now please answer the question.

You have not answered my question. In order for me to answer your question I need to know what you mean by "throw" by answering a simple straightforward question.

When a character throws a weapon does the weapon remain in hand?

[OzDragon]

You have not answered my question. In order for me to answer your question I need to know what you mean by "throw" by answering a simple straightforward question.

When a character throws a weapon does the weapon remain in hand?

The question you have asked has no bearing on anything, WE are talking about the dueling fighting style as it pertains to throwing weapons.

The attack action is all that matters what happens after does not. You make an attack in this case again "I throw my weapon at an enemy" resolve the attack . " the weapon either hits or misses the enemy" assign damage if hits.

[ThorOdinson]

The question you have asked has no bearing on anything, WE are talking about the dueling fighting style as it pertains to throwing weapons.

The attack action is all that matters what happens after does not. You make an attack in this case again "I throw my weapon at an enemy" resolve the attack . " the weapon either hits or misses the enemy" assign damage if hits.

If the question has no bearing on anything then you should have no problem answering the question.

The question actually has tremendous bearing on the issue and the debate. If we do not agree on what "throw" means we cannot progress in the discussion.

When a character throws a weapon does the weapon remain in hand?

[JNAProductions]

Other people are able to answer questions without having to rigorously define every term used. Why are you incapable of it, TO?

[Segev]

I need you to clarify something about your question first.

When a character throws a weapon does the weapon remain in hand?

Not by the time the entire action involving the throw is over, no.

Now: what kind of action is throwing a weapon?

[ThorOdinson]

Other people are able to answer questions without having to rigorously define every term used. Why are you incapable of it, TO?

I am suspicious that we do not agree on a meaning of "throw".

If you ask me a question with the word "throw" in it I cannot provide an answer until I know how you define "throw".

I am not asking for anything except a straight answer to the question.

When a character throws a weapon does the weapon remain in hand?

Not by the time the entire action involving the throw is over, no.

Now: what kind of action is throwing a weapon?

Is that a straight unequivocal "no" answer?

[ThorOdinson]

Duplicate post