Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency

[JNAProductions]

You're evading. You, not more than a page or two ago, were on our butts about not directly answering your questions, despite us having done so repeatedly throughout this thread.

Give us the same courtesy. As Segev says, feel free to define any words you feel are unclear, but answer the question.

[Garhi]

Let's try it this way.

Page 195 of the PHB clearly states that to "make a ranged attack" can be defined as "hurl a handaxe." I'd like to think we can all agree that "hurl a handaxe" can be read as a more generic "throw a weapon."

Given the above, the thrown property can be read thusly: "you can throw the weapon to throw the weapon."

By your own definition of "throw" you can't throw the same weapon twice, thus these two instances of "throw the weapon" must be referring to the same event, not two distinct events where one occurs before the other.

Now let's look at the mechanical layer, what does the player actually do to represent the character throwing a weapon.

The rules for "making a [ranged] attack" are quite clear and found on page 193-194 of the PHB:

1. Chose a target
2. Determine modifiers
3. Resolve the attack

It's determined whether dueling applies during step 2 of this process, "determine modifiers."

The weapon is thrown during step 3, when the attack is resolved and the game state is updated. At the time that you "determine modifiers" you are very clearly "wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons" thus, "you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon."

[OzDragon]

So let's turn to a critical rule in the PHB.



The key part of the rule is "you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

The "can" provides permission you do not already have so we must satisfy the rule.

Segev, do you think the rule permits this meaning?

"you [the character] can [fake the] throw [of] the weapon [by keeping the weapon in hand] to make a ranged Attack."

Or can we obviously assert by definition that by "throw" the rules mean an actual legitimate throw that involves the weapon leaving the hand and traveling a distance?

Ok this is really my last try...ThorOdinson

What type of action is it to throw a weapon at a creature attempting to damage/kill it?

Your options for answers are these (and only these to answer something else is to evade the question and continue to waste everyone's time)

A: An Action ( Attack, withdraw, full defense, ready)
B: A Move
C: A Bonus action
D: A Reaction

[Segev]

ThorOdinson, is the argument you are attempting to make by painstakingly getting us to agree to "truth statements" this argument?

I have presented a quote that clarifies ranged attacks . . .

"When you make a ranged Attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a Handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance."

Ranged weapon attacks are made by "hurling" or "send[ing] projectiles or "fire[ing ammunition].

In order to make a ranged atttack the weapon or ammo must be hurled, thrown, cast, or sent as a projectile.

If you drop a weapon it is no longer being wielded in one hand.

If you hurl a weapon it is no longer being wielded in one hand.

Yes or no, please.

[ff7hero]

A: An Action ( Attack, withdraw, full defense, ready)
B: A Move
C: A Bonus action
D: A Reaction

Just for the sake of pedantry:
E) Object Interaction

[ironkid]

And there I was thinking it was an easy, n00b question barely worth three posts, let alone pages

[Aett_Thorn]

And there I was thinking it was an easy, n00b question barely worth three posts, let alone pages

Well, your questions were basically answered in just a few posts, and then, like many forum posts, it just took on a life of its own because some people wanted to argue about something stupid.

[JNAProductions]

And there I was thinking it was an easy, n00b question barely worth three posts, let alone pages

You’re good. Hope your gaming is fun!

[ThorOdinson]

ThorOdinson, is the argument you are attempting to make by painstakingly getting us to agree to "truth statements" this argument?

Yes or no, please.

At this point we need to establish permission for a javelin. If we can satisfy the requirement for the permission in the Thrown rule we can make a ranged Attack [note the capitalization]

So let's turn to the Thrown rule in the PHB. We must satisy this rule.

Thrown: If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack.

The key part of the rule is "you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

The "can" provides permission you do not already have so we must satisfy the rule.

Segev, do you think the rule permits this meaning?

"you [the character] can [fake the] throw [of] the weapon [by keeping the weapon in hand] to make a ranged Attack."

Or can we obviously assert by definition that by "throw" the rules mean an actual legitimate throw that involves the weapon leaving the hand and traveling a distance?

Let's try it this way.

Page 195 of the PHB clearly states that to "make a ranged attack" can be defined as "hurl a handaxe." I'd like to think we can all agree that "hurl a handaxe" can be read as a more generic "throw a weapon."

Given the above, the thrown property can be read thusly: "you can throw the weapon to throw the weapon."

By your own definition of "throw" you can't throw the same weapon twice, thus these two instances of "throw the weapon" must be referring to the same event, not two distinct events where one occurs before the other.

Now let's look at the mechanical layer, what does the player actually do to represent the character throwing a weapon.

The rules for "making a [ranged] attack" are quite clear and found on page 193-194 of the PHB:



It's determined whether dueling applies during step 2 of this process, "determine modifiers."

The weapon is thrown during step 3, when the attack is resolved and the game state is updated. At the time that you "determine modifiers" you are very clearly "wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons" thus, "you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon."

There are lots of issues with your argument. Let's start with the biggest one.

Can you quote the Determine Modifiers step in its entireity? Therein lies a big problem for your argument.

Ok this is really my last try...ThorOdinson

What type of action is it to throw a weapon at a creature attempting to damage/kill it?

Your options for answers are these (and only these to answer something else is to evade the question and continue to waste everyone's time)

A: An Action ( Attack, withdraw, full defense, ready)
B: A Move
C: A Bonus action
D: A Reaction

Please pay attention to my argument as I am presenting it. At the moment I am establishing permissions to make a ranged Attack [note the capitalization] so your question has already been answered. We need to satisy the Thrown rule in order to make a ranged Attack. To do that we must throw the weapon. If we do not pay the cost ("throw the weapon") we do not have permission to make a ranged Attack. Correct?

[Segev]

Please pay attention to my argument as I am presenting it. At the moment I am establishing permissions to make a ranged Attack [note the capitalization] so your question has already been answered. We need to satisy the Thrown rule in order to make a ranged Attack. To do that we must throw the weapon. If we do not pay the cost ("throw the weapon") we do not have permission to make a ranged Attack. Correct?

Are you asserting that the throw must happen and be entirely mechanically resolved before the Attack action can be taken?

[ThorOdinson]

Are you asserting that the throw must happen and be entirely mechanically resolved before the Attack action can be taken?

You are confusing character and player again.

The character pays the cost (throw the weapon).

The player now has access to the ranged Attack rules and follows those rules which involve rolling dice.

Or are you saying the character pulls out some dice in the middle of combat?

Similarly are you saying the player is throwing a weapon at the table?

[Segev]

You are confusing character and player again.

The character pays the cost (throw the weapon).

The player now has access to the ranged Attack rules and follows those rules which involve rolling dice.

Or are you saying the character pulls out some dice in the middle of combat?

Similarly are you saying the player is throwing a weapon at the table?

Please clearly define how you are dividing player and character actions, here. Are you claiming the character never attacks, just throws the javelin?

[ThorOdinson]

Please clearly define how you are dividing player and character actions, here. Are you claiming the character never attacks, just throws the javelin?

References to the game world are directed at character. Its the character who has weapons, etc. Its the character who pays costs in the game world. If gold is spent the character decrements the gold in his possession. From the player perspective imaginary gold is spent, not real gold.

References to the table are directed at player. Dice rolls, etc.

At this point we need to establish permission for a javelin. If we can satisfy the requirement for the permission in the Thrown rule we can make a ranged Attack [note the capitalization]

So let's turn to the Thrown rule in the PHB. We must satisy this rule.

Thrown: If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack.

The key part of the rule is "you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

The "can" provides permission you do not already have so we must satisfy the rule.

Segev, do you think the rule permits this meaning?

"you [the character] can [fake the] throw [of] the weapon [by keeping the weapon in hand] to make a ranged Attack."

Or can we obviously assert by definition that by "throw" the rules mean an actual legitimate throw that involves the weapon leaving the hand and traveling a distance?

[OzDragon]

I guess you are avoiding answering the question because you see the check mate. Is that it?

This statement is laughable as the only one actively avoiding answering questions is you.

[ThorOdinson]

I guess you are avoiding answering the question because you see the check mate. Is that it?[/QUOTE]

This statement is laughable as the only one actively avoiding answering questions is you.

I have been answering questions. Right now we are resolving permissions. Feel free to join the discussion about permissions. As you know permissions is a critical discussion to be had

[Segev]

References to the game world are directed at character. Its the character who has weapons, etc. Its the character who pays costs in the game world. If gold is spent the character decrements the gold in his possession. From the player perspective imaginary gold is spent, not real gold.

References to the table are directed at player. Dice rolls, etc.

At this point we need to establish permission for a javelin. If we can satisfy the requirement for the permission in the Thrown rule we can make a ranged Attack [note the capitalization]

So let's turn to the Thrown rule in the PHB. We must satisy this rule.



The key part of the rule is "you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack."

The "can" provides permission you do not already have so we must satisfy the rule.

Segev, do you think the rule permits this meaning?

"you [the character] can [fake the] throw [of] the weapon [by keeping the weapon in hand] to make a ranged Attack."

Or can we obviously assert by definition that by "throw" the rules mean an actual legitimate throw that involves the weapon leaving the hand and traveling a distance?

I do not understand your answer to the question.

Is the character throwing the javelin and making an attack, or is the character throwing the javelin and nothing else?

[OzDragon]

I have been answering questions. Right now we are resolving permissions. Feel free to join the discussion about permissions. As you know permissions is a critical discussion to be had

Please tell me what page "permissions" is on in the PHB.

The only thing that matters is "actions" which is on pages 193-195 of the PHB.

[ThorOdinson]

I do not understand your answer to the question.

Is the character throwing the javelin and making an attack, or is the character throwing the javelin and nothing else?

Is the player attacking another player at the table?

[Garhi]

There are lots of issues with your argument. Let's start with the biggest one.

Can you quote the Determine Modifiers step in its entireity? Therein lies a big problem for your argument.

You're perfectly capable of quoting your own rules if you think they're a counter to an argument, but I'll show you the courtesy you so far haven't shown us.

2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll.

I know exactly where you're going with this, and that's that "Determine Modifiers" applies exclusively to attack rolls. I won't say that's a wrong reading. I'd argue however that it's equally valid to also determine modifiers to damage rolls during this step, because nowhere in the general rules does it say that the game state changes between the attack roll and the damage roll. If you're "determining modifiers" related to an attack, it only makes sense to do so during the "Determine modifiers" step of the attack rules. The damage roll is quite clearly a matter related to the attack.

Please pay attention to my argument as I am presenting it. At the moment I am establishing permissions to make a ranged Attack [note the capitalization] so your question has already been answered. We need to satisy the Thrown rule in order to make a ranged Attack. To do that we must throw the weapon. If we do not pay the cost ("throw the weapon") we do not have permission to make a ranged Attack. Correct?

The thrown property does not capitalize "Attack."

"can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack" does not mean "must first pay the cost of throwing a weapon, to then receive permission to make a ranged attack." It means "can make a ranged attack by throwing the weapon." "Making a ranged attack" is the game concept that is happening, throwing your weapon is something that occurs during the attack.

You "receive permission" to "make a ranged attack" by virtue of taking the "Attack" action. The thrown property exists to identify those melee weapons which can be used to make a ranged attack, despite not being ranged weapons.

Please answer this very simple question:

Using your definition of throw, does it make sense to "throw your weapon" prior to "declaring your target?"

[ThorOdinson]

You're perfectly capable of quoting your own rules if you think they're a counter to an argument, but I'll show you the courtesy you so far haven't shown us.


I know exactly where you're going with this, and that's that "Determine Modifiers" applies exclusively to attack rolls. I won't say that's a wrong reading. I'd argue however that it's equally valid to also determine modifiers to damage rolls during this step, because nowhere in the general rules does it say that the game state changes between the attack roll and the damage roll. If you're "determining modifiers" related to an attack, it only makes sense to do so during the "Determine modifiers" step of the attack rules. The damage roll is quite clearly a matter related to the attack.

The Determine Modifiers rule does not agree with your read. The attack roll is clearly what the rule refers to. You are adding a house rule to claim that it refers to the damage roll.

The Determine Modifiers rule as stated in the PHB, absent any house rule, directly supports my argument and proves yours to be a house rule.

[OzDragon]

Ok this is really my last try...ThorOdinson

What type of action is it to throw a weapon at a creature attempting to damage/kill it?

Your options for answers are these (and only these to answer something else is to evade the question and continue to waste everyone's time)

A: An Action ( Attack, withdraw, full defense, ready)
B: A Move
C: A Bonus action
D: A Reaction

Please tell me what page "permissions" is on in the PHB.

The only thing that matters is "actions" which is on pages 193-195 of the PHB.

Please answer the questions posted here.

[Segev]

Is the player attacking another player at the table?

I don't see what that has to do with my question.

Please explain fully.

[Valmark]

The Determine Modifiers rule does not agree with your read. The attack roll is clearly what the rule refers to. You are adding a house rule to claim that it refers to the damage roll.

The Determine Modifiers rule as stated in the PHB, absent any house rule, directly supports my argument and proves yours to be a house rule.

Actually no. It never says that you calculate the modifiers to damage rolls so logically it would happen during the 'Determine Modifiers' section. You can say that damage is only calculated during the next part, but that would be as much an house rule as Garhi's.

[Garhi]

The Determine Modifiers rule does not agree with your read. The attack roll is clearly what the rule refers to. You are adding a house rule to claim that it refers to the damage roll.

The Determine Modifiers rule as stated in the PHB, absent any house rule, directly supports my argument and proves yours to be a house rule.

I concede that the Determine Modifiers rule doesn't give you express permission to determine damage modifiers during that step.

Where, under RAW, do you believe that you determine the modifiers for damage rolls? By your definitions, if it's RAW you should be able to quote a rule that says exactly when/where to determine modifiers to damage rolls.

Also you never answered my other question:

Using your definition of "throw" does it make sense to "throw your weapon" before "declaring your target?"

[ThorOdinson]

I concede that the Determine Modifiers rule doesn't give you express permission to determine damage modifiers during that step.

Where, under RAW, do you believe that you determine the modifiers for damage rolls? By your definitions, if it's RAW you should be able to quote a rule that says exactly when/where to determine modifiers to damage rolls.

Also you never answered my other question:

Using your definition of "throw" does it make sense to "throw your weapon" before "declaring your target?"

When you are following the rules for making an attack some steps are directed at character and some at player. Declaring a target is instruction to the player.

I identify the attack roll as the event that corresponds with making an attack at the player and character level.

Prior to "making the attack/attack roll" the weapon has to have been thrown. We can assert that semantically, logically, and by rule permission.

[Segev]

When you are following the rules for making an attack some steps are directed at character and some at player. Declaring a target is instruction to the player.

Are you suggesting that the character does not have a target in mind for his javelin when he throws it?

I identify the attack roll as the event that corresponds with making an attack at the player and character level.

This is a house rule, per your definition of house rules, unless you can quote for me from the RAW where it says this is the case.

Prior to "making the attack/attack roll" the weapon has to have been thrown. We can assert that semantically, logically, and by rule permission.

So, to confirm, you are asserting that, on the player level, the declaration of the "Throw Javelin" action must be fully resolved before the "attack with javelin" action can be declared. Is that correct?

[Edea]

Yes, you get the bonus.

DUELING
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.

Javelins are considered simple melee weapons. The Thrown weapon property allows ranged attack rolls to be made with them, but this does not change their designation as melee weapons.

You can only make weapon attack rolls (and by extension, weapon damage rolls) with weapons you are wielding, regardless if they're being swung, or thrown, or even if ammunition is being shot from them. The problem here is that 5e's 'relaxed language' policy assumes being able to parse that one out...which is a faulty assumption, so 'wield' is not codified properly.

However, as an interesting tangent, if the atlatl was in 5e, and you used the atlatl to hurl a javelin at something, you (probably) would not get the bonus. This is because in that situation you're not wielding the javelin anymore; you're wielding the atlatl, which is (likely) classified as a ranged weapon (and allowing you to roll Dex for attack/damage). The javelin here has become ammunition, which isn't wielded.

[Garhi]

When you are following the rules for making an attack some steps are directed at character and some at player. Declaring a target is instruction to the player.

I identify the attack roll as the event that corresponds with making an attack at the player and character level.

Prior to "making the attack/attack roll" the weapon has to have been thrown. We can assert that semantically, logically, and by rule permission.

So, you are asserting that you can make an attack with a weapon that is no longer in your hand. Please quote the rule that gives you permission to make an attack with a weapon that is not in your hand.

[ThorOdinson]

Are you suggesting that the character does not have a target in mind for his javelin when he throws it?

Again you are confusing character and player.

This is a house rule, per your definition of house rules, unless you can quote for me from the RAW where it says this is the case.

Nope. Not a house rule. We can assert by logic, definition, inference, permission, and by unintended consequences (reductio ad absurdum) that corresponding the attack roll with the attack is correct.

For example, if the weapon has not been thrown then an attack has not been attempted. If an attack has been attempted we know the weapon has been thrown and the weapon is no longer in hand. If the weapon is in hand then a throw has not been made and an attack has not been attempted.

So, to confirm, you are asserting that, on the player level, the declaration of the "Throw Javelin" action must be fully resolved before the "attack with javelin" action can be declared. Is that correct?

Again you are confusing player and character. Because of your confusion, you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting my argument.

So, you are asserting that you can make an attack with a weapon that is no longer in your hand. Please quote the rule that gives you permission to make an attack with a weapon that is not in your hand.

"If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack."

[ThorOdinson]

Duplicate post