Shapechange + Find (greater) Steed

[ThatDuckGrant]

Just found this combo suggested in another thread and there were no comments about whether it works RAW. The idea is as follows:

Find Steed /Find Greater Steed specify that any spell that only affects you while mounted on your steed can also affect your steed.

Shapechange doesn’t function based on CR like true polymorph so when you cast Shapechange on yourself, it affects your steed as well and “The new form can be any creature with CR equal to your level or lower.”

This suggests that both you and your mount can Shapechange into dragons. So a wizard or Bard uses Wish to get a Pegasus, and the next day can flood any battlefield with TWO creatures that would take most of the party to kill.

Are there any limitations to this that I can’t see right off the bat? I’m assuming your mount retains its alignment and mental stats, just like you do. I guess one question is if you maintain your mental link with the mount, and if it’s still guaranteed to be friendly to you? Are there any other ways this could go haywire for the caster?

[JackPhoenix]

If it works of the level instead of CR, it doesn't work on a mount, as the mount doesn't have a level.

Although arguably 0 is the same as none, so the mount can turn into a frog or a commoner.

[Segev]

If it works of the level instead of CR, it doesn't work on a mount, as the mount doesn't have a level.

Although arguably 0 is the same as none, so the mount can turn into a frog or a commoner.

The argument is that the spell references only your level, not that of the target. While there are usually the same thing, when using the benefits of find greater steed....

[MaxWilson]

Just found this combo suggested in another thread and there were no comments about whether it works RAW. The idea is as follows:

Find Steed /Find Greater Steed specify that any spell that only affects you while mounted on your steed can also affect your steed.

Shapechange doesn’t function based on CR like true polymorph so when you cast Shapechange on yourself, it affects your steed as well and “The new form can be any creature with CR equal to your level or lower.”

This suggests that both you and your mount can Shapechange into dragons. So a wizard or Bard uses Wish to get a Pegasus, and the next day can flood any battlefield with TWO creatures that would take most of the party to kill.

Are there any limitations to this that I can’t see right off the bat? I’m assuming your mount retains its alignment and mental stats, just like you do. I guess one question is if you maintain your mental link with the mount, and if it’s still guaranteed to be friendly to you? Are there any other ways this could go haywire for the caster?

I think you're right that technically by RAW this works. The biggest danger I foresee is the DM throwing a book at your head and saying, "No."

I generally try to follow the Principle of Least Surprise so that players get to play the game the PHB led them to expect them they'd be playing, but in the case of counterintuitive rules interactions like this I feel no guilt whatsoever about declaring that Shapechange on your steed is restricted to creatures of its own CR or lower, not the caster's level. Most players would probably be surprised if it didn't work off of CR, since that's the precedent that they're used to from Polymorph.

[ThorOdinson]

The argument is that the spell references only your level, not that of the target. While there are usually the same thing, when using the benefits of find greater steed....

Per RAW, you could turn you and your greater steed into metallic dragons. And then your steed could use its Change Shape ability to magically polymorph permanently to become a Githzerai Anarch or something like that (which persists after Shapechange expires unless the steed dies before then). The steed doesnt have spell levels so using Change Shape in this way is optimal.

[OgataiKhan]

Per RAW, you could turn you and your greater steed into metallic dragons. And then your steed could use its Change Shape ability to magically polymorph permanently to become a Githzerai Anarch or something like that (which persists after Shapechange expires unless the steed dies before then). The steed doesnt have spell levels so using Change Shape in this way is optimal.

Are you sure about this? Change Shape is a function of your dragon form. Reading both the spell and the feature my interpretation is that once Shapechange ends the steed returns to its original form. Why would Change Shape override Shapechange's limited duration?

[MoiMagnus]

RAW answer seems to be "it works".

RAI is probably "your steed shapechange according to its CR, not your level".
Alternatively, I'd be tempted to count your mount as a gear, and merge it with you if you shapechange into something that cannot mount it. The intend of this "spells that affect only you might also affect your magical steed" is to make it compatible with invisibility, teleportation, and protection spells that would usually only target you. In other words, "you and your steed somewhat form a single entity whenever it is convenient for spells". Following this logic, RAI could be "you choose whether your magical steed remain on the ground, merges into the new form, or is mounted by it."

As for RAF, if you shapechange into something that can mount a dragon, shapechanging your mount into a dragon is certainly cool. But using this newly created dragon as an independent animal companion you send attacking alone rather than an actual steed seems like an exploit of the RAF.

[ThorOdinson]

Are you sure about this? Change Shape is a function of your dragon form. Reading both the spell and the feature my interpretation is that once Shapechange ends the steed returns to its original form. Why would Change Shape override Shapechange's limited duration?

"Change Shape. The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the dragon's choice). In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points, Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance, lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as this action. Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form."

Change shape is a magical polymorph effect that per RAW stays in effect until the [steed or character shapechanged into a] dragon dies or takes an action to change back into a dragon. When you drop concentration on Shapechange neither of those things have occured so the magical polymorph persists. It is a magical effect so it can be dispelled.

[sithlordnergal]

If it works of the level instead of CR, it doesn't work on a mount, as the mount doesn't have a level.

Although arguably 0 is the same as none, so the mount can turn into a frog or a commoner.

Lol, that's funny. That means NPCs that come with Shapechange have a functionally useless spell.

[MaxWilson]

Lol, that's funny. That means NPCs that come with Shapechange have a functionally useless spell.

Not necessarily true even for MM-style NPCs, e.g. the Archdruid stat block says it is an 18th level spellcaster.

And of course PHB-style NPCs play by the same rules as PCs do.

[sithlordnergal]

Just found this combo suggested in another thread and there were no comments about whether it works RAW. The idea is as follows:

Find Steed /Find Greater Steed specify that any spell that only affects you while mounted on your steed can also affect your steed.

Shapechange doesn’t function based on CR like true polymorph so when you cast Shapechange on yourself, it affects your steed as well and “The new form can be any creature with CR equal to your level or lower.”

This suggests that both you and your mount can Shapechange into dragons. So a wizard or Bard uses Wish to get a Pegasus, and the next day can flood any battlefield with TWO creatures that would take most of the party to kill.

Are there any limitations to this that I can’t see right off the bat? I’m assuming your mount retains its alignment and mental stats, just like you do. I guess one question is if you maintain your mental link with the mount, and if it’s still guaranteed to be friendly to you? Are there any other ways this could go haywire for the caster?

Well, I think the biggest issue is getting Shapechange with Find Greater Steed or Find Steed. The only way you'd be able to do this is by being a Bard, and taking Find Steed and Shapechange as your Bardic Secret spells. That said, its a bit of a weird one...Yes the spell affects the Steed but due to the wording its a bit weird. I could see an argument for the spell combo to work as you said, but at the same time I could see arguments against it. I'm personally predisposed to saying "Sure, go at it?, and would rule in your favor. But that's just me.

[MaxWilson]

Well, I think the biggest issue is getting Shapechange with Find Greater Steed or Find Steed. The only way you'd be able to do this is by being a Bard, and taking Find Steed and Shapechange as your Bardic Secret spells. That said, its a bit of a weird one...Yes the spell affects the Steed but due to the wording its a bit weird. I could see an argument for the spell combo to work as you said, but at the same time I could see arguments against it. I'm personally predisposed to saying "Sure, go at it?, and would rule in your favor. But that's just me.

No, it's trivial: just be any old wizard, and Wish (Find Greater Steed), and then at some point after that cast Shapechange.