IN or ON the Phlogiston?

[EggKookoo]

I never played Spelljammer back in the day, but I've been reading about it where I can more recently. Just curious how people interpret the Phlogiston. Most descriptions make it seem like a vast nebula in all directions, like a rainbow/luminescent fog. Not entirely unlike the Mutara Nebula from Trek. But other things make it seem more like a flat sea, with the spheres floating at the surface. I'm inclined to go with the nebula visualization but what do you think?

[Composer99]

I think the general idea is that the phlogiston is the cosmos/replacement for empty space/luminiferous aether, so it goes in all directions, so the crystal spheres float in it. That's what I remember, from back in the day, for what that's worth.

[Segev]

I always thought it was 3D.

That said, I'm now vastly amused by the notion that it's actually 2D, and the illusion of three dimensionality that is the spheres bobbing on its surface and the ships floating there and people walking up and down in ships is just that: an illusion. Because this gives me freedom to tie it in to Star Control: Origins, where they took the hyperspace projection that is 2D for their game purposes and made in-universe lore references to the "very complicated math" that proves that hyperspace is 2-dimensional.

[Jason]

I always thought it was 3D too, but looking back at the original boxed set it does use a lot of ocean and river and island metaphors in describing it, which all sound 2D.

[EggKookoo]

Yeah, we have things like...

"Outside and between the crystal spheres is a turbulent, rainbow ocean of flammable ether called the phlogiston. The phlogiston is a multicolored sea upon which float the various systems within their crystal shells."

And...

"The crystal spheres bob in the phlogiston like corks in an ocean (mind-boggling, enormous corks, but they do bob)."

But then...

"Phlogiston has varying thicknesses in space and forms dense rivers between planet-sized objects ... A ship can speed up and slow down by penetrating deeper into or raising itself out of these phlogiston rivers."

So I guess we're meant to visualize it how we like.

[Duff]

From memory, there was stuff about moving in 3d and how ships which meet each other didn't have to be in the same orientation. If that's correct, that pretty well confirms 3d
If not, that supports 2d

[Jason]

From memory, there was stuff about moving in 3d and how ships which meet each other didn't have to be in the same orientation. If that's correct, that pretty well confirms 3d
If not, that supports 2d

The rules say gravity works the same way on ships in the phlogiston as it does inside the crystal spheres, so that argues for 3D.

Basically, a ship has a gravity plane through its center of mass. Stuff above the plane falls down, while stuff below falls up. If you fall overboard you fall up and down until you come to a rest on the plane.
If a bigger ship gets close then everything aligns to its gravity plane, so an effective tactic if you have a bigger ship is to approach at an angle and maybe get enemy crew to fall down onto your deck when their gravity shifts to match yours.

[Tanarii]

Clearly it's 2D, and the maps prove it!

I love this map btw
http://nerik.orpheusweb.co.uk/files/..._map_games.jpg

[raygun goth]

In the novels it was 3d, and described as filling up the deck and requiring all fire sources be extinguished at all times.

Flowrivers are like currents and areas of differential pressure.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

A third option would be to have it as a 2D sheet curving and folding and ripping to fill (or well, use) a 3D space, with gravity always aligning to point towards the phlogiston. The sheet could be just a few hundred meters thick to allow for drowning in it and for passing ships on the other side without conflict. In that case planets would stick out on both sides, with the phlogiston running through/aligning with their center. If you want planets to bob around in it like floating islands the sheet might have to be tens if thousands of kilometers thick instead, and would indeed start looking a lot like a regular 2D ocean for anyone sailing around on it. With a surface to surface depth a thousand times that of earth's oceans, who knows what lurks in these depths? The parallel world on the other side could be a whole thing as well, depending on how many or few tears, splits and folds there are that allow ships to end up there.

With a good enough map projection, or good enough map interpreters, 2D mapping of such a phlogiston could even make sense. More sense than 3D at least...

[Segev]

Clearly it's 2D, and the maps prove it!

I love this map btw
http://nerik.orpheusweb.co.uk/files/..._map_games.jpg

The map keeps timing out and saying it can't load, for me.

[D+1]

It's 2D simply because (for inexplicable reasons ) we don't have simple 3rd party software to make bespoke 3D Spelljammer maps

[Telok]

It's 2D simply because (for inexplicable reasons ) we don't have simple 3rd party software to make bespoke 3D Spelljammer maps

Any 3D visualization software should do. Off the top of my head Kerbal and Minecraft should both be quite sufficent. The '90s sf computer game Frontier/Frontier: First Encounters did a good one in game and someone made a stand alone visualizer for it.

[Clistenes]

Many advanced spelljamming vessels look like flying bugs rather than ships, so I think it's 3D. Groundlings use naval vessels as spelljamming ships because that's all they have, not because it's an actual sea, but proper Wildspace cultures build shapes better fit for 3D movement...

[Tanarii]

The map keeps timing out and saying it can't load, for me.

Better?
https://i.imgur.com/l8yu9Br.png

[Segev]

Better?
https://i.imgur.com/l8yu9Br.png

That one works! Thanks!

[sktarq]

I always imagined it a 3D but not even...there were belts of density that were often near planar (though rarely a flat plane-more like a flowing flapping sheet) as well as other parts that were more stream like....

So you could get 2D like effects - where a ship just barely in the denser stream would look like a ocean ship. . . Where a crystal sphere would "rise" over a "horizon" and the like but basically it was a 3D area movement wise.

[Mechalich]

Yeah, we have things like...

"Outside and between the crystal spheres is a turbulent, rainbow ocean of flammable ether called the phlogiston. The phlogiston is a multicolored sea upon which float the various systems within their crystal shells."

And...

"The crystal spheres bob in the phlogiston like corks in an ocean (mind-boggling, enormous corks, but they do bob)."

But then...

"Phlogiston has varying thicknesses in space and forms dense rivers between planet-sized objects ... A ship can speed up and slow down by penetrating deeper into or raising itself out of these phlogiston rivers."

So I guess we're meant to visualize it how we like.

This actually suggests a combination: three-dimensional, but distinctly flattened. This would of course, match the actual nature of most galaxies - the Milky Way is 200,000 light years across, but only about 1,000 light years in thickness. Spelljammer might accentuate that, with the Crystal Spheres 'bobbing' in a phlogiston medium that's only actually a couple of crystal sphere diameters thick. That would still be a mind-boggling huge distance, but it would be absolutely minute compared to the distances in the plane of travel between spheres.

[Mutazoia]

This actually suggests a combination: three-dimensional, but distinctly flattened. This would of course, match the actual nature of most galaxies - the Milky Way is 200,000 light years across, but only about 1,000 light years in thickness. Spelljammer might accentuate that, with the Crystal Spheres 'bobbing' in a phlogiston medium that's only actually a couple of crystal sphere diameters thick. That would still be a mind-boggling huge distance, but it would be absolutely minute compared to the distances in the plane of travel between spheres.

You can actually "bob" while completely submerged inside a substance. Ever see a lava-lamp in action?

Think of the Phlogiston as the atmosphere of Jupiter (greatly expanded). There are different layers, with currents and eddies that wind around mostly predictable paths (the great eye is a good example). The Spheres would bob between layers: Heavier than one layer and it sinks to a layer where it's lighter than the surrounding gasses and rise again (again...think of a lava-lamp). Of course it wouldn't be gasses in this case, but layers of magical density (for lack of a more specific term).

The correct term is "IN" the Phlogiston, making the it a 3D environment. The combat maneuvers described in the rules would be impossible otherwise.

[GrayDeath]

Agreed, I always saw it as a multicolored Etheric Pizza.

So 3D but flat 3D, kinda like the Star trek Armada Games.

That allows both to sink into it/rise out, spheres to bob on it, and for ships and spheres to be fully submerged.

And Mechanus wrote the laws that keep it in form of a Supersized round Chicago Pizza with triple Cheese and Jalapenjos (and all the meat^^).

Hmmm....

[Mr Adventurer]

If it's not it's own 3d space, then... what's outside it? What happens when you leave the phlogiston without entering a crystal sphere or contained structure?

(I always thought it was 3d, luminiferous ether essentially)

[EggKookoo]

If it's not it's own 3d space, then... what's outside it? What happens when you leave the phlogiston without entering a crystal sphere or contained structure?

(I always thought it was 3d, luminiferous ether essentially)

Obviously, you travel phlogistOFF.

(I'll see myself out.)

[Tanarii]

Agreed, I always saw it as a multicolored Etheric Pizza.

So 3D but flat 3D, kinda like the Star trek Armada Games.

That allows both to sink into it/rise out, spheres to bob on it, and for ships and spheres to be fully submerged.

It's probably be better envisioned that all the parts of it thick enough to support traveling through it, and those with "flow", are in a flattened shape. Above and below it's so thin you couldn't get any serious propulsion even without the currents, and besides there's nothing out there anyway. Probably ...

Either that or (almost) all the spheres and currents are in a mostly 2D-ish layout, and so there's no need to travel in the deep phlogiston.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

If it's not it's own 3d space, then... what's outside it? What happens when you leave the phlogiston without entering a crystal sphere or contained structure?

(I always thought it was 3d, luminiferous ether essentially)

When you jump away from the phlogiston you fall back down, the same as with a regular ocean.

Birds and wizards casting fly might get a bit higher depending on if sailors on the phlogiston can breathe.

[Lord Torath]

I've always had the idea it's more like a 3D nebula, with thicker 'rivers' and thinner 'voids'. It says in the Concordance of Arcane Space that the phlogiston is so thick that by the time you're close enough to see a crystal sphere, the sphere looks like a perfectly flat wall.

I imagine the 'bobbing' of the spheres is sort of like how the globes in a 'Galileo' thermometer go up and down as the density of the water changes with temperature. Not that the spheres bob based on the temperature of the phlo, mind you, or that they're arranged vertically. Those are just the parts of the analogy that don't fit (as no analogy perfectly fits the thing it's being used to describe).

I imagine the various Phlo Maps people make are just 2D representations of the 3D connections between the spheres.

Edit: You can go much faster in the Phlo than you can in Wildspace. As far as I know, no official source has ever said how mush faster. Has anyone ever come up with their own numbers?

[Segev]

Is there a good place to read full rules on Phlostigon? I don’t own Spelljammer.

[EggKookoo]

Is there a good place to read full rules on Phlostigon? I don’t own Spelljammer.

DriveThru has it for $10.

I don't think there's a free way to get it that wouldn't run afoul of this site's piracy rules.

There's also a wiki here but I haven't read through it to verify its accuracy.

[Segev]

DriveThru has it for $10.

I don't think there's a free way to get it that wouldn't run afoul of this site's piracy rules.

There's also a wiki here but I haven't read through it to verify its accuracy.

Hm. Might get the $10 thing.

[Lord Torath]

There's also a wiki here but I haven't read through it to verify its accuracy.

Here's a link to the specific wiki page on Phlogiston. It's fairly accurate, as far as I can tell.

[EggKookoo]

Here's a link to the specific wiki page on Phlogiston. It's fairly accurate, as far as I can tell.

One thing that's interesting is that most flowrivers are two-way, which means they're not literally rivers of flow (unless I guess they're dual-lane or threaded somehow). It's more like they're paths or threads of something that simply allows faster movement along them in whichever directions you want to go.