The Boys (Amazon)

[Psyren]

It's the other popular deconstructive superhero show. But where Umbrella Academy is a send-up of the X-Men, The Boys has its sights aimed squarely at the Justice League via its main hero team called The Seven - though as I understand it, there are some Avengers expies waiting in the wings too. I haven't read the comics, but I believe there is a Captain America expy (Soldier Boy) and one for Iron Man (Tek Knight), neither of which have been seen on-screen and may not be likely to be... but I digress.

The titular Boys are a disparate cadre of Badass Normals who for various reasons seek to take down the Seven (particularly their horrifyingly Xykon levels of evil team leader and Superman expy, Homelander) and the shadowy corporation named Vought that bankrolls them.

The first three episodes of Season 2 were recently released on Amazon Prime, rather than the entire season like last time - a move which has been... uh... controversial to say the least. I thoroughly enjoyed season 1, and season 2 appears to be off to a good start - especially now that the head executive of Vought is taking a more direct hand in events. This guy is played by none other than Giancarlo Esposito (he of Breaking Bad and Mandalorian fame) and I'm very excited to see what machinations he enacts this season.

Feel free to discuss, and since the whole thing isn't out yet, consider using spoiler tags as new episodes debut.

[Willie the Duck]

I tried to get into it. I like deconstruction tropes. However, it just isn't enjoyable because there's just not enough likable characters or really likability anywhere on the show. It's hypocrites and the hypocrites who fight back against them. I think back to fictional properties where everyone is messed up, the good guys aren't good and even the actual good guys are hypocrites and sociopaths and the like and just about the only one that works for me is the original comic book version of Watchmen, and even that a recent re-read didn't match my nostalgic remembrance.

[Lo'Tek]

The first three episodes of Season 2 were recently released on Amazon Prime, rather than the entire season like last time - a move which has been... uh... controversial to say the least..

reading that i expected the rest of the season to be an upsell that costs 4.99, like so many things on Prime.
People are mad because of a weekly release-schedule o.O ... ok


Watching the recap of season 1

Spoiler

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[False God]

I tried to get into it. I like deconstruction tropes. However, it just isn't enjoyable because there's just not enough likable characters or really likability anywhere on the show. It's hypocrites and the hypocrites who fight back against them. I think back to fictional properties where everyone is messed up, the good guys aren't good and even the actual good guys are hypocrites and sociopaths and the like and just about the only one that works for me is the original comic book version of Watchmen, and even that a recent re-read didn't match my nostalgic remembrance.

This is more or less my feel about it. It's like someone watched Game of Thrones, and all they took away from it was that everyone sucks and there's a lot of violence, and decided to turn that into a Supers show.

On a personal note:

I watch sci-fi and fantasy and supers stuff because with them not being required to be true to reality, they can present us with a better one. Sometimes even if its better only because there's a rag-tag group of do-gooders fighting against all odds while everything around them sucks.

If I want to be depressed at the realization that everything we know and love is terrible and it's all packaged and sold to us by soulless corporations, I can turn on the news.

[Morty]

I can't decide if I want to watch this. Now normally, a bunch of normals fighting superheroes is absolutely my jam. I have a bone to pick with the superhero genre at large. But I'd prefer if they fought against... realistically flawed supers, not a pack of absolute scumbags, as seems to be the case. And the protagonists appear to be no better. So yeah, this feels like it might just be kind of depressing to watch.

[Dire_Flumph]

I couldn't get into the comic it's based on at all, it was just too unpleasant. But I did enjoy the 1st season of the show and have enjoyed the first 3 of the 2nd so far. I'm a bit worried though where they're going from here, if this gets into a rut where both sides just get uglier and uglier (where it seems like we're going with Stormfront being added to the team), then I'm probably out.

For those who haven't seen it but are considering, I will say that not everyone on the show is a scumbag. Karl Urban's Billy Butcher is certainly no better than the supers he fights, but most of the rest of the titular "Boys" aren't anywhere near that messed up. I'm wasn't previously familiar with Antony Starr, but he's probably the best take I've seen on film of a Superman character that's a complete sociopath. I'm also curious where they take Maeve, I think she's probably the most interesting of the supers, but hasn't been all that prominent so far.

The biggest question I have though, is how does Vought keep check on the supers it made? I get that they play them off against each other for prestige slots in more prominent areas, but I really thought the supers would have some sort of fail-safes built in as a precaution if they suddenly decided they'd rather be running the show. Emotional manipulation only goes so far as they've already found out.

I will say that if Amazon got rid of the Tick just to greenlight this though, it wasn't a good trade-off. I really miss that show. Haven't given Umbrella Academy a try yet, but it's on my list.

[PontificatusRex]

So, I'm curious about this, I liked the comic up to a point but stopped fairly early - spoilers of the comic ahead, no idea if they get translated into the show.


So, in the comic, it's revealed pretty early that The Boys all have been given the same super-power drug that the Capes get. It makes them all the same - super strong and tough, instead of the various powers of the costumed folks. So instead of of "A bunch of incredibly tough, determined, kinda crazy normal folks take down the Supers", it was "Cool kids in black trenchcoats beat up nerds in spandex". There had been this premise that the insane, berserker frenzy of The Frenchman and The Female might be enough to match a superpowered foe - Butcher even referred to them as the Muscle of the team - but in the first big fight with super-powered antagonists those two are mostly on the sidelines and it's Butcher himself who is the heavy.

After that, I stopped buying the comic. The premise was totally betrayed, so who cares about the rest? If the TV series is rewritten enough to fix that, I'll be pretty interested.

[Dire_Flumph]

So, I'm curious about this, I liked the comic up to a point but stopped fairly early - spoilers of the comic ahead, no idea if they get translated into the show.

Spoiler: Retroactive spoiler tag!

Show

So, in the comic, it's revealed pretty early that The Boys all have been given the same super-power drug that the Capes get. It makes them all the same - super strong and tough, instead of the various powers of the costumed folks. So instead of of "A bunch of incredibly tough, determined, kinda crazy normal folks take down the Supers", it was "Cool kids in black trenchcoats beat up nerds in spandex". There had been this premise that the insane, berserker frenzy of The Frenchman and The Female might be enough to match a superpowered foe - Butcher even referred to them as the Muscle of the team - but in the first big fight with super-powered antagonists those two are mostly on the sidelines and it's Butcher himself who is the heavy.

After that, I stopped buying the comic. The premise was totally betrayed, so who cares about the rest? If the TV series is rewritten enough to fix that, I'll be pretty interested.

As of right now on the show:

Spoiler

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No, the only super on the team is the Female (and, technically her brother, but that doesn't matter), who was a super before they released her from captivity. I didn't get that far in the comic, but that sounds like a terrible idea to me as well. Hope that doesn't happen in the show.

[Rodin]

I couldn't get into the comic it's based on at all, it was just too unpleasant. But I did enjoy the 1st season of the show and have enjoyed the first 3 of the 2nd so far. I'm a bit worried though where they're going from here, if this gets into a rut where both sides just get uglier and uglier (where it seems like we're going with Stormfront being added to the team), then I'm probably out.

For those who haven't seen it but are considering, I will say that not everyone on the show is a scumbag. Karl Urban's Billy Butcher is certainly no better than the supers he fights, but most of the rest of the titular "Boys" aren't anywhere near that messed up. I'm wasn't previously familiar with Antony Starr, but he's probably the best take I've seen on film of a Superman character that's a complete sociopath. I'm also curious where they take Maeve, I think she's probably the most interesting of the supers, but hasn't been all that prominent so far.

The biggest question I have though, is how does Vought keep check on the supers it made? I get that they play them off against each other for prestige slots in more prominent areas, but I really thought the supers would have some sort of fail-safes built in as a precaution if they suddenly decided they'd rather be running the show. Emotional manipulation only goes so far as they've already found out.

I will say that if Amazon got rid of the Tick just to greenlight this though, it wasn't a good trade-off. I really miss that show. Haven't given Umbrella Academy a try yet, but it's on my list.

It really helps that not all the Supers are as bad as Homelander, and the Boys themselves are a whole spectrum of morality as well. I found Game of Thrones to be darker on the morality spectrum personally, and I also found it to be a lot more mean-spirited.

[Wraith]

When I heard that The Boys was being made into a TV show, I had only one response: "They can't do it. It's not possible in terms of what can legally be broadcast."

For I have *have* read all of the comics all of the way through, and I mean what I said - they cannot broadcast some of the stuff that happens in the comics, so the TV show is already hobbled by being forced to be adapted and I'm honestly surprised that it's been as good as it has been so far.

That being said, even though I know the parts that HAVE to be cut - The G-Men, Hughie's childhood and the flashbacks to Homelander's photos - I think there are some really strong plot-lines that could still work, and if they go through with them... Wow.
Assuming that nothing has been changed, and from what I've seen so far it may not have.... I know who Black Noire is, I know why Butcher recruited Hughie, and I know what Terror is for. If those plots end up in the TV show, I will applaud them.... Even as the fandom burns it down around us, because they will hate it.

It really helps that not all the Supers are as bad as Homelander

*snrk*

[Bunny Commando]

I can't decide if I want to watch this. Now normally, a bunch of normals fighting superheroes is absolutely my jam. I have a bone to pick with the superhero genre at large. But I'd prefer if they fought against... realistically flawed supers, not a pack of absolute scumbags, as seems to be the case. And the protagonists appear to be no better. So yeah, this feels like it might just be kind of depressing to watch.

IMHO, they're not all absolute scumbags.

Homelander

Spoiler

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Ok, he's an absolute scumbag.

Queen Maeve

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She lives in fear of doing something that would upset the Homelander - and the Homelander has the power to kill her and everyone she cares about and the inclination to do so. She's clearly not a scumbag and I see her as the victim of an abusive relationship.

A-Train

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He's pretty bad, not Homelander level of bad but still. As an athlete of the highest level he has to win to stay on top and in order to win he is willing to commit despicable acts - because he feels that without his speed he's nothing.

The Deep

Spoiler

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He's bad, too. He has a physical trait he's ashamed of and that people make fun of and he turns that shame and humiliation into shaming and humiliating women. He may redeemable, but a part of me really want the Deep to bite the dust for what he did to Starlight.

Starlight

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She's decent and a bit naive.

Black Noir

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He's a psychopath.

Stormfront

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She's a racist. Ok, she's most probably on the same level of bad of the Homelander.

So while I do agree that most of them have few redeemable qualities you have also to take into consideration they live in a demanding enviroment: they are truly powerful and at the same time they have to live a life chosen for them by a marketing team - they are treated like products instead of people.

[Psyren]

Starlight I think is genuinely good. Possibly Queen Maeve as well, but she's unfortunately too focused on survival to be an effective change agent within the Seven, and just ends up going along with all their (Homelander's) evil.

A-Train is in over his head, and at least somewhat remorseful. Given events in e4, he might end up defecting.

Black Noir - I don't know enough about him yet to guess at his alignment. Yes, he was pretty brutal, but he also seems to be childlike in several ways.

As for Stormfront... uh... I'll just say

Spoiler

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"racist" is a pretty mild descriptor for what she is (I mean, her name is literally all you need, but check her belt buckle and earrings if you think they were being too subtle) and leave it at that.

[Bunny Commando]

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As for Stormfront... uh... I'll just say "racist" is a pretty mild descriptor for what she is (I mean, her name is literally all you need, but check her belt buckle and earrings if you think they were being too subtle) and leave it at that.

Spoiler

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I read the comic before watching the TV show and I do believe they kept the same backstory for Stormfront. I will keep "racist" or at best (worst?) white suprematist to describe her because I do not want to spoil that plot twist for people that haven't read the comic books. But I do agree, racist to describe her is not enough.

About A-Train, I'm not sure. He may be redeemable but at the same time I think he's a sunk cost fallacy on two legs - I feel that he will try to be in the Seven by any means possible. Still, I hope you're right and that we have a satisfying redemption arc for at least one character.

[Psyren]

You're right, that should go in spoiler tags - I edited my post.

[comicshorse]

So, I'm curious about this, I liked the comic up to a point but stopped fairly early - spoilers of the comic ahead, no idea if they get translated into the show.


So, in the comic, it's revealed pretty early that The Boys all have been given the same super-power drug that the Capes get. It makes them all the same - super strong and tough, instead of the various powers of the costumed folks. So instead of of "A bunch of incredibly tough, determined, kinda crazy normal folks take down the Supers", it was "Cool kids in black trenchcoats beat up nerds in spandex". There had been this premise that the insane, berserker frenzy of The Frenchman and The Female might be enough to match a superpowered foe - Butcher even referred to them as the Muscle of the team - but in the first big fight with super-powered antagonists those two are mostly on the sidelines and it's Butcher himself who is the heavy.

After that, I stopped buying the comic. The premise was totally betrayed, so who cares about the rest? If the TV series is rewritten enough to fix that, I'll be pretty interested.

This isn't quite correct. The purity of the Compound V injected into a person has a massive affect on how powerful they become and often grants powers apart from Strength/Toughness (hence A train's speed, The Homelander being able to fly, Starshine's light producing.etc). As The Boys are opposed to Vought, who have the secret of V, the stuff they got injected with is pretty poor. Pretty much only enough to ensure they don't just die when hit by a Super and they can, mostly, make their blows felt. They are heavily out-classed by any of the Seven (and several other Supers).

Above applies to the comics. I've not watched the TV series yet

[Psyren]

No one among the Boys in the show is a metahuman as of now. (Except Kimiko of course.)

[Eldan]

Sheesh. I thought Stormfront's name was unsubtle. But, I mean, I didn't notice the ear rings, but now that I did... wow.

[Wraith]

Yeah, in the comic Stormfront is...

Spoiler: Stormfront's potential back story

Show

...male, and a Nazi attempt to make their own version of Homelander. He's literally a 100-year old, war-time Nazi given the knock-off Nazi version of Compound V, and one the powers it gave him was longevity.

Obviously, no idea if it's still exactly the same for the TV show but it gives you some idea of what they're shooting for.

This is why I hope we get a certain Russian hero named Vasili appear in the TV show - for a variety of reasons, but catharsis being one of the top ones.

[Bunny Commando]

Yeah, in the comic Stormfront is...

Spoiler: Stormfront's potential back story

Show

...male, and a Nazi attempt to make their own version of Homelander. He's literally a 100-year old, war-time Nazi given the knock-off Nazi version of Compound V, and one the powers it gave him was longevity.

Obviously, no idea if it's still exactly the same for the TV show but it gives you some idea of what they're shooting for.

This is why I hope we get a certain Russian hero named Vasili appear in the TV show - for a variety of reasons, but catharsis being one of the top ones.

Spoiler

Show

Stormfront is not the nazi version of the Homelander, he's actually the first metahuman and the Homelander is the improved version of him. Stormfront is actually really powerful, he just doesn't have any real control over his powers and that's why the Boys managed to defeat him.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Just started watching and I like parts of it and I wnt to see what comes next. But everything I've heard is pretty worrying for one reason.

My favorite kind of deconstructions go out of their way to reconstruct whatever it is they are dissecting in how the author thinks it should be. That's what I find compelling. This series' original author was Garth Ennis though and considering his feelings on the super hero genre, I don't think that reconstruction will be coming so I'm a bit torn on the series so far.

[Bartmanhomer]

Everybody is evil in that show except that female blond superhero. I can't remember what her name is.

[Psyren]

Yeah, in the comic Stormfront is...

Spoiler: Stormfront's potential back story

Show

...male, and a Nazi attempt to make their own version of Homelander. He's literally a 100-year old, war-time Nazi given the knock-off Nazi version of Compound V, and one the powers it gave him was longevity.

Obviously, no idea if it's still exactly the same for the TV show but it gives you some idea of what they're shooting for.

This is why I hope we get a certain Russian hero named Vasili appear in the TV show - for a variety of reasons, but catharsis being one of the top ones.

We just learned that Stormfront

Spoiler: Episode 4

Show

is definitely long-lived, and went by the name Liberty back in the 70s.

That coupled with Edgar's history lesson on Vought does seem to confirm Compound V's origins in WW2, and the types of folks that would have been experimenting with it/subjects of it.

[Tyndmyr]

I tried to get into it. I like deconstruction tropes. However, it just isn't enjoyable because there's just not enough likable characters or really likability anywhere on the show. It's hypocrites and the hypocrites who fight back against them. I think back to fictional properties where everyone is messed up, the good guys aren't good and even the actual good guys are hypocrites and sociopaths and the like and just about the only one that works for me is the original comic book version of Watchmen, and even that a recent re-read didn't match my nostalgic remembrance.

There are...a lot of bad guys, to be sure. However, there are some good people. Starlight's worst trait is her love of Charleston Chews. Which, in fairness, is pretty irredeemable.

Much of the show is pretty delightful, but usually in a fairly dark sort of way. There's definitely a few minutes of stark horror sprinkled throughout the series.

The biggest question I have though, is how does Vought keep check on the supers it made?

With money, mostly. They sign the checks, and if you want to keep getting paid, gotta toe the company line.

This *often* works, just as it does with normal people, but it's certainly not infalliable, and exploring how this breaks down is certainly a theme of the show.

I will say that this show is one of the rare examples of a show being far better than the books. I tried reading the comics, and frankly, they were just edgelording for the sake of being edgy, which often crossed over into just being kinda gross. The show is dark, but in a way that always serves a purpose.

After that, I stopped buying the comic. The premise was totally betrayed, so who cares about the rest? If the TV series is rewritten enough to fix that, I'll be pretty interested.

That seems highly probable. I agree that this is a flaw in the comics, but the show seems to more take inspiration from the comics rather than following it literally. It seems deeply unlikely that the Boys can just solve all their problems in the show by kicking them into the ground.

[Ramza00]

Haven't seen the show. Not sure if I want to due to the subject matter delighting in deconstruction and "shock value." (It is more like horror without the horror, it is the element of surprise is what I intuit from others.)

But a fun friendly question I am curious about from fans of The Boys show.

Could the Justice League DCAU animated versions of the characters take on and defeat The Boys if The Boys decide to go all Justice Lords on Earth? What is the power scale?

[Psyren]

The Seven are weaker than their DC counterparts. There are a couple of fights whose outcome could vary depending on who is writing them (Homelander vs. Supes favors Supes unless there's Kryptonite around, and Stormfront vs. Shazam could be interesting especially if she figures out how to exploit the trigger for his powers) but the rest don't come close. Flash in particular would definitely dumpster A-Train instantly, and could probably solo the rest of the Seven too if written to his potential.

A more sporting matchup for them might be Squadron Supreme, their similarly deconstructive (though less awful as people) expies that are owned by Marvel. Even then though I think the Seven comes up short.

[Willie the Duck]

There are...a lot of bad guys, to be sure. However, there are some good people. Starlight's worst trait is her love of Charleston Chews. Which, in fairness, is pretty irredeemable.

She's definitely filling the role of naive character whose illusions are destroyed by discovering the darkness of her world, along with the audience. That's fairly standard for a deconstruction story. She isn't pearly pure, however. IIRC, Stillwell asks her 'Then why don't you burn the outfit and become a cop?" and she doesn't have an answer. That puts her more on the hypocrite end than the awful end, and makes her a parallel to Nite Owl and Silk Spectre (Laurie) in Watchmen that way. I think it remains to be seen how she's going to be developed.

Much of the show is pretty delightful, but usually in a fairly dark sort of way. There's definitely a few minutes of stark horror sprinkled throughout the series.

That's the problem. I don't find it dark, nor with any real horror. It's just people being awful, and then some body horror* death-scene moments. To me, it's not gritty, it is just grimy. As False God put it, someone taking away all the wrong lessons from GoT, but also the parts of Man of Steel and cinematic Watchmen that didn't land.
*One of the problems is that I've never been impressed with the death special effect of replacing someone with an exploding squib (and CGing over the transition). I mean, as tame as the old Western standard of 'guy gets shot, clutches chest, and falls over (possibly with visible blood)' is, or as contrived as 80s action movies were with finding situations where people could be blown up in ridiculous explosions, both extremes felt like it was the death and not the body horror that was the centerpiece. This effect just reads to me as 'oh look, the director thinks we're all squeemishly uncomfortable with the fact that we're made of blood and meat.'

That said, if you found it compelling, great. I certainly want more variety in superhero entertainment. For the grief I'm effectively giving Zack Snyder here, I don't hate him attempting his movies, I just didn't like the result. If this show succeeds, and perhaps inspires more people to try to do new and different things with the genre, I am all for it.

The Seven are weaker than their DC counterparts. There are a couple of fights whose outcome could vary depending on who is writing them (Homelander vs. Supes favors Supes unless there's Kryptonite around, and Stormfront vs. Shazam could be interesting especially if she figures out how to exploit the trigger for his powers) but the rest don't come close. Flash in particular would definitely dumpster A-Train instantly, and could probably solo the rest of the Seven too if written to his potential.

Definitely this. DC superheroes (especially their non-supernormals top billers) have frustratingly strong powersets, and then extremely exploitable weaknesses (along with plot convenient 'being handed the idiot ball' moments). These guys are much more constrained. Honestly, I think I prefer this power level -- you don't need as many ham-handed moments (like the 5000th time someone pulls kryptonite on Supes, or 'Billy B. reveals he's Shazam to the wrong person, who kidnaps him with a mouth-gag'). However, in a straight matchup, the seven are going down unless they magically know the right win conditions.

[comicshorse]

But a fun friendly question I am curious about from fans of The Boys show.

Could the Justice League DCAU animated versions of the characters take on and defeat The Boys if The Boys decide to go all Justice Lords on Earth?

Without even breaking a sweat

[Ramza00]

Without even breaking a sweat

Okay can 7 Hawkgirls do it without breaking a sweat?

• Generally she is considered the weakest of the 7 of the Animated, though she is super effective against certain enemies. Next weakest would be Wally / The Flash which is simultaneously the strongest unless fighting durable enemies yet at the same time he is the least durable so one mistake and he can be dead.
• Hawkgirl also seems the most aggro of the heroes and it would be a good matchup since many of The Boys are more aggro, more aggressive, more deconstructive of what it means to be a hero and whether you would limit yourself.

[Bunny Commando]

Could the Justice League DCAU animated versions of the characters take on and defeat The Boys if The Boys decide to go all Justice Lords on Earth? What is the power scale?

The Seven are certainly weaker than the Justice League. The authors have chosen to write a more believable kind of superhero; in the comics they're also described as having little to no training so they don't really know how to use their powers effectively - they just use brute force.

[comicshorse]

Okay can 7 Hawkgirls do it without breaking a sweat?

• Generally she is considered the weakest of the 7 of the Animated, though she is super effective against certain enemies. Next weakest would be Wally / The Flash which is simultaneously the strongest unless fighting durable enemies yet at the same time he is the least durable so one mistake and he can be dead.
• Hawkgirl also seems the most aggro of the heroes and it would be a good matchup since many of The Boys are more aggro, more aggressive, more deconstructive of what it means to be a hero and whether you would limit yourself.

For a starter Hawkgirl has training whereas of the Boys only 3 of the 5 have any training whatsoever.
She has the mace, Boys usually don't carry any weapons
She can fly which provides various tactical advantages
Hawkgirl has fought really dangerous, superpowered opponents. The Boys exist to pick off supers who have generally done nothing but get laid and get high.
The Boys do have some enhanced strength and toughness probably more than Hawkgirl gets from being Thanagarian but not by much
The Boys do have advantages. Butcher is a canny fighter and a utterly dirty one as well. The Female is a dynamo of sheer bloodlust once she gets started

If Hawkgirl (times 7) can use her flight for an early advantage the fights hers. If the Boys can get out, next time it will be them pulling the ambush. The next fight they will come prepared and it will probably be theirs

All IMHO of course