Weis, Hickman sue Wizards of the Coast

[pendell]

Seen on Boing Boing . Evidently the two authors of the 'Dragonlance' novels had signed a book deal for a new trilogy in 2017. However, Wizards terminated the deal in August of this year. The authors allege there is no contractual basis for the termination, and have therefore filed suit in Seattle district court for $10 million.

The allegations swirling about the affair suggest the new novels were 'problematic' by today's standards. Perhaps, but isn't that what editors are for? To ensure anything that's published meet basic standards before going out the door? It's WOTC's universe; if they want to mandate (for example) that draconians are not inherently evil that is certainly their right.

Maybe , from WOTC's perspective, it's just not worth the money to fix? In which case, no doubt they will settle. We'll never know the end of the story ... but I don't really mind, I stopped paying attention after Legends anyway.

ETA: Also covered at Comic Book.com . You can read the filing here .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mikeavelli]

Were Draconians always evil in the original series? It's been a while, but i thought the Kang's Regiment series went into a lot of detail about how they were became pretty decent when left to their own devices after the dragon armies collapsed.

Raistlin was kind of a creeper, but other than that I can't think of anything particularly bad about the original novels. You could publish them today and no-one would bat an eye.

[pendell]

Were Draconians always evil in the original series? It's been a while, but i thought the Kang's Regiment series went into a lot of detail about how they were became pretty decent when left to their own devices after the dragon armies collapsed.

Raistlin was kind of a creeper, but other than that I can't think of anything particularly bad about the original novels. You could publish them today and no-one would bat an eye.

They were pretty much Always Evil in Chronicles and Legends, though Kang's Regiment decided to revisit and alter the lore. I'm wondering what the problem was that WOTC decided to throw years worth of work in the trash heap without so much as a word of explanation.

I imagine that this won't go to Trial, and WOTC will settle. Weis and Hickman will move to other stories in other universes. It's a pity, but I never really liked Dragons of Summer Flame and the successor works. I felt like they were trying to make Good and Evil little more than different team Jerseys. As if the world was a better place when it was balanced between good and evil.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Yora]

It's entirely within WotCs rights to no longer want the books. But the writers still want to get paid. I believe that's the actual think they sue for.

[Dragonus45]

Yea in general those two are already arguably the best two writers in terms of inclusiveness who are touching anything WotC related, but I imagine that the higher ups were spooked by all the controversy lately and just decided they didn't want to risk trying to resurrect the property in these modern times. I'm particularly interested in seeing what the changes the sensitivity reader got put in though involving character names and the like. The 70 page rewrite mentioned in the suit was apparently philter of love related as well and I would be interested in seeing the uncensored version for comparison to get an idea how nosey the editing was.

As for Draconians, how evil they are was a complicated question. They were literally birthed by an evil ritual fueled by the destruction of good aligned dragon eggs so saying they, as a species, are just inherently evil by design would make sense no matter how much people want to whine about it, but they seemed to have more free will in later books once they got some distance from Tiamat. They even got trilogy they got that I remember being alright about them trying to find a home away from all the bs floating around them. But being "evil" in Dragonlance is itself handled differently from other D&D properties so who knows.

It's entirely within WotCs rights to no longer want the books. But the writers still want to get paid. I believe that's the actual think they sue for.

That was their right. Then they signed that away and made an agreement to publish more.

[pendell]

It's entirely within WotCs rights to no longer want the books. But the writers still want to get paid. I believe that's the actual think they sue for.

Precisely. The authors are suing for the two plus years of labor they put in. If WOTC doesn't want the books, that's fine. Trying to weasel out of the contract and not paying the authors is not okay, and that's what the lawsuit is about.

ETA: Now that I think about, Gully Dwarves as stupid comedy race might be 'problematic' also. Bupu and her antics give me an Amos & Andy blackface comedy vibe, though so far as I know Gully Dwarves were never considered an analog for real-world humans.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Yora]

It's not about whether gutter dwarves were ever intended to stand in for whatever racial minority group of your choice.
The issue would be (as it certainly is for me), that the existence of gutter dwarves makes people familiar with the idea that some ethnicities are genetically predetermined to be retarded and filthy, and that thinking of them that way is harmless fun.
What we see portrayed in fiction imprints patterns of thinking in our brains that we also apply in reality, even if we don't mean to. It makes us see protagonists who are clearly having racist thoughts and acting in racist ways, but we still regard them as likeable heroes, because within their fictional world, their prejudices of people as savage degenerates are actually factually correct. People see that and remember that, and it affects how our brains are wired. (Which might even the whole evolutionary purpose of storytelling. It's meant to teach ways of thinking through fictional examples.)

And you also got kender and tinker gnomes, and probably all kinds of other stuff as well.

Though all that is irrelevant regarding the legality of backing out of the contract.

[Mikeavelli]

Reading through the lawsuit, it's even more than the work already done. Weis and Hickman were able to negotiate an extremely favorable deal where they and Penguin have exclusive license to write Dragonlance books for 10 years. This means they don't just get paid to write the books, they get royalties for book sales, and the right to future works in the universe if this trilogy sparks increased demand for books. Since the Dragonlance brand has proven marketability, this is extremely valuable. The lawsuit is not only for the work already done on the trilogy, but also for lost profits stemming from the de-facto revocation of this license.

The next factor is that Wizards appears to have done this in bad faith. That is, there are no terms of the contract that allow Wizards to just blanket refuse to approve new drafts in perpetuity. Wizards is allowed to exercise some editorial control, but they must do so in a way that allows Weis and Hickman to make changes to their work that will allow the books to be published.

Proving bad faith opens up the door to much larger damages, since the courts take a very dim view of those sorts of shenanigans.

[warty goblin]

My first hope is that Weis & Hickman get their dues, if Wizards teally has whiffed on their contract.

My second hope is that this results in more Dragonlance. What I really don't want to have happen is knowing we were this close more DL, and that the manuscripts exist in nearly finished form, but never getting to read it due to whatever settlement is reached.

[pendell]

My first hope is that Weis & Hickman get their dues, if Wizards teally has whiffed on their contract.

My second hope is that this results in more Dragonlance. What I really don't want to have happen is knowing we were this close more DL, and that the manuscripts exist in nearly finished form, but never getting to read it due to whatever settlement is reached.

We're probably not. WOTC appears to be done with the property. The settlement will probably result in a monetary sum being paid to Weis & Hickman, but unless WOTC gives them the rights to the property as well they won't be able to publish the books themselves.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dragonus45]

My second hope is that this results in more Dragonlance. What I really don't want to have happen is knowing we were this close more DL, and that the manuscripts exist in nearly finished form, but never getting to read it due to whatever settlement is reached.

That's my biggest fear, and frustration, as well. Even if the finished work gets leaked it will still be incomplete.

We're probably not. WOTC appears to be done with the property. The settlement will probably result in a monetary sum being paid to Weis & Hickman, but unless WOTC gives them the rights to the property as well they won't be able to publish the books themselves.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

WotC may well wind up giving them access to the license as part of a settlement deepening on how negotiations go. It's an outside chance but I'll take what hope I can.

[warty goblin]

We're probably not. WOTC appears to be done with the property. The settlement will probably result in a monetary sum being paid to Weis & Hickman, but unless WOTC gives them the rights to the property as well they won't be able to publish the books themselves.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

After having read the full suit, I'm actually more optimistic that we will get at least the mostly completed trilogy. Publication of said is the first thing that W&H ask the court to allow by way of redress. If the contract really is as they describe, it also doesn't seem like WoTC have much of a leg to stand on, since they in essence already granted W&H and Penguin the publication rights, subject to W&H complying to explicitly called for edits.

What I'm not optimistic for is them getting the rights to a subsequent 10 years of DL stuff. Which I would obviously love for them to get, but I don't think they mention requesting any remedy for that in the suit. Though since they're basically asking that WoTC uphold the contract they already signed, that may be implied.

[Palanan]

I read what I assume is the original trilogy (Dragons of Autumn Twilight, etc.) just a couple years after they first came out, mainly because a gaming friend just about threw them at me. I was much less impressed than he was, and never really took to the series or the world.

That said, I find WotC's attempt to kill the planned revival to be extremely disturbing for its broader implications, although I don't know how far we can discuss that here.

But it really does feel like the near-literal witch hunts of the 80s. Then as now, there was no actual evidence that reading fantasy novels caused anyone to do (or even think) Very Bad Things, as defined by the loud and judgemental minority of the time. I can only hope that Weis and Hickman are able to publish what they've worked on so far. It's sad that their right to do so is in jeopardy.

[pendell]

I read what I assume is the original trilogy (Dragons of Autumn Twilight, etc.) just a couple years after they first came out, mainly because a gaming friend just about threw them at me. I was much less impressed than he was, and never really took to the series or the world.

That said, I find WotC's attempt to kill the planned revival to be extremely disturbing for its broader implications, although I don't know how far we can discuss that here.

But it really does feel like the near-literal witch hunts of the 80s. Then as now, there was no actual evidence that reading fantasy novels caused anyone to do (or even think) Very Bad Things, as defined by the loud and judgemental minority of the time. I can only hope that Weis and Hickman are able to publish what they've worked on so far. It's sad that their right to do so is in jeopardy.

Oh, c'mon. Everyone knows Mazes and Monsters is a far out game .

I suppose the hobby has to go through this every ten years. Back in the 1980s it was accused of luring kids into witchcraft. In the 2000s Grand Theft Auto was accused of making kids violent. Now I suppose we have another criteria. I expect the hobby will adapt as it did to previous accusations, until in another 10 years it has to shift again to adjust to the changing world around it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Precure]

https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/...lly-offensive/

I wonder what is racist about "Stone-Throwing Devils" card. I also lol'd that Jihad is basIcally Crusade but with better points.

[Palanan]

I'm trying to figure out what exactly is the problem with the Imprison card. The game is, after all, Dungeons & Dragons.

Also, apparently orcs can't be scary anymore.

[pendell]

I'm trying to figure out what exactly is the problem with the Imprison card. The game is, after all, Dungeons & Dragons.

I think it's the art itself is the problem; the description is neutral and doesn't appear to be especially problematic. But the art looks sort of like a dark-skinned creature being imprisoned. The card could probably be re-released with new art, I think. Same with "Stone-throwing devils". I don't see anything wrong with the rule itself, which simply provides first strike. But the art looks like "barbarous" people throwing rocks. Again, the card could probably be re-released with different artwork, perhaps traditional red-skinned-with-horned devils rather than "savages".

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Forum Explorer]

Were Draconians always evil in the original series? It's been a while, but i thought the Kang's Regiment series went into a lot of detail about how they were became pretty decent when left to their own devices after the dragon armies collapsed.

Raistlin was kind of a creeper, but other than that I can't think of anything particularly bad about the original novels. You could publish them today and no-one would bat an eye.

In the original series they were always evil, or better said, they never encounter any good draconians. Kang's Regiment reveals that the draconians were evil mostly because they were raised by evil people and told to worship an evil goddess who told them to do evil things. Take those away and they were normal.

Yea in general those two are already arguably the best two writers in terms of inclusiveness who are touching anything WotC related, but I imagine that the higher ups were spooked by all the controversy lately and just decided they didn't want to risk trying to resurrect the property in these modern times. I'm particularly interested in seeing what the changes the sensitivity reader got put in though involving character names and the like. The 70 page rewrite mentioned in the suit was apparently philter of love related as well and I would be interested in seeing the uncensored version for comparison to get an idea how nosey the editing was.

As for Draconians, how evil they are was a complicated question. They were literally birthed by an evil ritual fueled by the destruction of good aligned dragon eggs so saying they, as a species, are just inherently evil by design would make sense no matter how much people want to whine about it, but they seemed to have more free will in later books once they got some distance from Tiamat. They even got trilogy they got that I remember being alright about them trying to find a home away from all the bs floating around them. But being "evil" in Dragonlance is itself handled differently from other D&D properties so who knows.



That was their right. Then they signed that away and made an agreement to publish more.

From what I've read of Terry Hickman's beliefs, being evil is always a choice. Or to put it another way, nothing is inherently evil. You might be raised evil, and that will have a massive impact on if you are evil or not, but there is nothing forcing you to be evil.

Precisely. The authors are suing for the two plus years of labor they put in. If WOTC doesn't want the books, that's fine. Trying to weasel out of the contract and not paying the authors is not okay, and that's what the lawsuit is about.

ETA: Now that I think about, Gully Dwarves as stupid comedy race might be 'problematic' also. Bupu and her antics give me an Amos & Andy blackface comedy vibe, though so far as I know Gully Dwarves were never considered an analog for real-world humans.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Did anyone have any problems with the House Elves in Harry Potter? Because Gully Dwarves aren't that much different. Actually, I'd say Gully Dwarves are more respectable considering they actually have the willpower to actively resist those oppressing them, and to actually win in doing so.

It would also be hard to remove them without warping Rasitlin's character arc, as they are one of the few beings that he actually shows sympathy and empathy towards. Because everyone does look down on Gully Dwarves for living in squalor except for him.

[Dragonus45]

https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/...lly-offensive/

I wonder what is racist about "Stone-Throwing Devils" card. I also lol'd that Jihad is basIcally Crusade but with better points.

Apparently it is an obscure slur in the middle east, I have not been able to find a lot of details about it though.

I'm trying to figure out what exactly is the problem with the Imprison card. The game is, after all, Dungeons & Dragons.

Also, apparently orcs can't be scary anymore.

The art mainly. It's just a bit too much for some people I guess.

:Edits:


The funnies thing about the orc change is that Primal Intuition is arguable just as racist as what it replaced. The changes are whatever though I'm mostly just annoyed this being errata means I don't think I have the option not to use it on a digital copy of the book.

From what I've read of Terry Hickman's beliefs, being evil is always a choice. Or to put it another way, nothing is inherently evil. You might be raised evil, and that will have a massive impact on if you are evil or not, but there is nothing forcing you to be evil.

If nothing else that fits with a lot of their other writings as well. Both in the effort they went to to show that people could be Evil and still have decent or honorable qualities to the Rose of the Prophet series eschewing a good-evil conflict entirely for the sake of a Law vs Chaos narrative. Which arguable Dragonlance was as well. The plot seems a lot less goofy if you swap the end of the world to being caused by "The world being unbalanced towards Law" then the weird thing about the world being too Good.

[pendell]

Did anyone have any problems with the House Elves in Harry Potter? Because Gully Dwarves aren't that much different. Actually, I'd say Gully Dwarves are more respectable considering they actually have the willpower to actively resist those oppressing them, and to actually win in doing so.

I had a problem with Hermione's interactions with them. House elves are intelligent creatures specifically created to be slaves, which is abhorrent in my eyes. Hermione attempted to "rescue" them, but went about it the wrong way and made things worse. So far as I can see, there was never a time when she tried to understand house elves or thought about how to make things better. Instead, she did what she thought was right without regard for the people she was "helping", which to my mind was a pretty good expression of Wizard Privilege. Afterwards, she seems to have forgotten all about it. As if her entire effort was less about improving the lot of house elves and more about making herself feel good.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sholos]

Did anyone have any problems with the House Elves in Harry Potter? Because Gully Dwarves aren't that much different. Actually, I'd say Gully Dwarves are more respectable considering they actually have the willpower to actively resist those oppressing them, and to actually win in doing so.

It would also be hard to remove them without warping Rasitlin's character arc, as they are one of the few beings that he actually shows sympathy and empathy towards. Because everyone does look down on Gully Dwarves for living in squalor except for him.

I always thought the point of the gully dwarves was to not look down on others and think less of them just because you see them as "weak" or "stupid".

[Keltest]

I had a problem with Hermione's interactions with them. House elves are intelligent creatures specifically created to be slaves, which is abhorrent in my eyes. Hermione attempted to "rescue" them, but went about it the wrong way and made things worse. So far as I can see, there was never a time when she tried to understand house elves or thought about how to make things better. Instead, she did what she thought was right without regard for the people she was "helping", which to my mind was a pretty good expression of Wizard Privilege. Afterwards, she seems to have forgotten all about it. As if her entire effort was less about improving the lot of house elves and more about making herself feel good.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I think that was intentional. Her heart was in the right place but her unwillingness to actually ask what the house elves want instead of deciding for them was pretty consistently shown to be wrong of her.

[Forum Explorer]

I had a problem with Hermione's interactions with them. House elves are intelligent creatures specifically created to be slaves, which is abhorrent in my eyes. Hermione attempted to "rescue" them, but went about it the wrong way and made things worse. So far as I can see, there was never a time when she tried to understand house elves or thought about how to make things better. Instead, she did what she thought was right without regard for the people she was "helping", which to my mind was a pretty good expression of Wizard Privilege. Afterwards, she seems to have forgotten all about it. As if her entire effort was less about improving the lot of house elves and more about making herself feel good.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yeah, but Hermione's flaw was always her self-righteous behavior.

Gully Dwarves are kinda in the same boat as House Elves; in that they live in what we would consider awful conditions, and are incredibly happy with those circumstances. Though Gully Dwarves are also the opposite in the sense that Gully Dwarves are incredibly free and House Elves are basically slaves.

Actually what I think would be a bigger problem is all the implied rape. It's one of the go to signs that someone is evil, is that they are either implied to have raped people in the past, or actively want to rape one of the protagonists. Which makes sense as far as logic goes. If they don't have a problem killing, enslaving, and feeding you to monsters, I can't imagine that rape is off the table for these people. But I imagine a lot of people would be uncomfortable with that dialogue.

But then again, that stuff would be very easy to remove from the story. The evil guys aren't any less evil because you remove just one example of their vileness from the story.

[pendell]

I always thought the point of the gully dwarves was to not look down on others and think less of them just because you see them as "weak" or "stupid".

Quite. Gully Dwarves can be gallant.

Spoiler: Time of the Twins

Show

The Highgug stared at the approaching army in horrified fascination. Over and over
echoed in his mind Duncan’s last command to him—“You Stay Here.”

Turning around, running back to his troop, that was exactly what the Highgug
intended to do.

Although gully dwarves have a well-deserved reputation for being the most cowardly
race living upon Krynn, they can—when driven into a corner—fight with a ferocity that
generally amazes an enemy.

Most armies, however, use gully dwarves only in support positions, keeping them as
far to the rear as possible since it is almost even odds that a regiment of gully dwarves
will inflict as much damage to its own side as it will ever succeed in doing to an
enemy.

Thus Duncan had posted the only detachment of gully dwarves currently residing in
Pax Tharkas—they were former mine workers—in the center of the courtyard and told
them to stay there, figuring this would be the best way to keep them out of mischief.
He had given them pikes, in the unlikely event that the enemy would crash through the
gates with a cavalry charge.

But that was what was happening. Seeing the Army of Fistandantilus closing in upon
them, knowing that they were trapped and defeated, all the dwarves in Pax Tharkas
were thrown into confusion.

A few kept their heads. The sharpshooters on the battlements were raining arrows
into the advancing foe, slowing them somewhat. Several commanders were gathering
their regiments, preparing to fight as they retreated to the mountains. But most were
just fleeing, running for their lives to the safety of the surrounding hills.

And soon only one group stood in the path of the approaching army—the gully
dwarves.

“This is it,” the Highgug called hastily to his men as he came huffing and puffing
back. His face was white beneath the dirt, but he was calm and composed. He had been
told to Stay Here and, by Reorx’s beard, he was going to Stay Here.

However, seeing that most of his men were starting to edge away, their eyes wide at
the sight of the thundering horses which could now be seen approaching the open
gates, the Highgug decided this called for a little morale boost.

Having drilled them for just such an occasion, the Highgug had also taught his troops
a war chant and was quite proud of it. Unfortunately, they’d never yet got it right.

“Now,” he shouted, “what you give me?”

“Death!” his men all shouted cheerfully with one voice.

The Highgug cringed. “No, no, no!” he yelled in exasperation, stomping on the
ground. His men looked at each other, chagrined.



“I tell you, gulphbludders—it’s—”

“Undying loyalty!” cried one suddenly in triumph.

The others scowled at him, muttering “brown nose.” One jealous neighbor even
poked him in the back with a pike. Fortunately, it was the butt end (he was holding it
upside down) or serious damage might have been incurred.

“That’s it,” said the Highgug, trying not to notice that the sound of hoofbeats was
getting louder and louder behind him. “Now, we try again. What you give me?”

“Un-undy ... dying loy ... loy ... alty.” This was rather straggled-sounding, many
stumbling over the difficult words. It certainly seemed to lack the ring (or the
enthusiasm) of the first.

A hand shot up in the back.

“Well, what is it, Gug Snug?” snarled the Highgug.

“Us got to give ... undying ... loyal ... ty when dead?”

The Highgug glared at him with his one good eye.

“No, you phungerwhoop,” he snapped, gritting his teeth. “Death or undying loyalty.
Whichever come first.”

The gully dwarves grinned, immensely cheered by this.

The Highgug, shaking his head and muttering, turned around to face the enemy. “Set
pikes!” he shouted.

That was a mistake and he knew it as soon as he said it, hearing the vast turmoil and
confusion and swearing (and a few groans of pain) behind him.

But, by that time, it didn’t matter....

The sun set in a blood-red haze, sinking down into the silent forests of Qualinesti.

All was quiet in Pax Tharkas, the mighty, impregnable fortress having fallen shortly
after midday. The afternoon had been spent in skirmishes with pockets of dwarves,
who were retreating, fighting, back into the mountains. Many had escaped, the charge
of the knights having been effectively held up by a small group of pikesmen, who had
stood their ground when the gates were breached, stubbornly refusing to budge.


... few saw the single, black-robed figure entering the open gates of Pax Tharkas.
It rode upon a restive black horse that shied at the smell of blood. Pausing, the figure
spoke a few words to his mount, seeming to soothe the animal. Those that did see the
figure paused for a moment in terror, many having the fevered (or drunken) impression
that it was Death in person, come to collect the unburied.

Then someone muttered, “the wizard,” and they turned away, laughing shakily or
breathing a sigh of relief.

His eyes obscured by the depths of his black hood, yet intently observing all around
him, Raistlin rode forward until he came to the most remarkable sight on the entire
field of battle—the bodies of a hundred or more gully dwarves, lying (for the most
part) in even rows, rank upon rank. Most still held their pikes (many upside down)
clutched tightly in their dead hands. There were also lying among them, though, a few
horses that had been injured (generally accidentally) by the wild stabs and slashings of
the desperate gully dwarves. More than one animal, when hauled off, was noted to
have teeth marks sunk into its forelegs. At the end, the gully dwarves had dropped the
useless pikes to fight as they knew best—with tooth and nail.

“This wasn’t in the histories,” Raistlin murmured to himself, staring down at the
wretched little bodies, his brow furrowed. His eyes flashed. “Perhaps,” he breathed,
“this means time has already been altered?”

For long moments he sat there, pondering. Then suddenly he understood.

None saw Raistlin’s face, hidden as it was by his hood, or they would have noted a
swift, sudden spasm of sorrow and anger pass across it.

“No,” he said to himself bitterly, “the pitiful sacrifice of these poor creatures was left
out of the histories not because it did not happen. It was left out simply because—”

He paused, staring grimly down at the small broken bodies. “No one cared....”

That's actually a pretty good critique of racism; they may have been stupid, but they were honest and loyal and fought to the death while their "betters" were betraying the fortress or running in terror. Their action saved many lives by delaying the pursuit, allowing many to escape who would otherwise have been chased down and killed. Afterwards, they were left out of the history books because no one wanted to remember that gully dwarves were brave when they had been cowardly, and also because no one wanted to challenge their own presumptions of what gully dwarves were like.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by pendell
The card could probably be re-released with new art, I think.

I’m not seeing a problem with the current art, which looks like a nonhuman creature to me. In a fantasy game, I’m not sure why anyone would assume that this illustration depicts a human.

Originally Posted by Sholos
I always thought the point of the gully dwarves was to not look down on others and think less of them just because you see them as "weak" or "stupid".

I barely remember the gully dwarves, but it sounds like some of the noisy critics aren’t bothering to actually read and understand what they’re complaining about.

Meanwhile, out in the real world, no one’s behavior will be changed in the slightest by banning gully dwarves from a fantasy novel—except possibly for even less consideration of what might be an author’s intent with a particular aspect of story or setting.

.

[GloatingSwine]

I'm trying to figure out what exactly is the problem with the Imprison card. The game is, after all, Dungeons & Dragons.

Also, apparently orcs can't be scary anymore.

*psst* people often use negative racial traits in games as stand-ins for racial traits of real world peoples....

"There's this race of big violent people that are all just genetically stupid and they're all menacing and always evil"

Sounds like something HP Lovecraft might have said, if you know what I mean....



(There's a reason that when Games Workshop was designing its Orcs it lifted them from an unarguably non-racial inspiration, football hooligans, so that this sort of thing would be specifically avoided)

[Dragonus45]

Actually what I think would be a bigger problem is all the implied rape. It's one of the go to signs that someone is evil, is that they are either implied to have raped people in the past, or actively want to rape one of the protagonists. Which makes sense as far as logic goes. If they don't have a problem killing, enslaving, and feeding you to monsters, I can't imagine that rape is off the table for these people. But I imagine a lot of people would be uncomfortable with that dialogue.

It is often a convenient go too for plenty of writers, as culturally it often gets considered its own special kind of evil, but if nothing else it's boring when almost literally every evil person is into it. And unrealistic really. Hardly the kind of think I would imagine shutting a whole book down over though.

*psst* people often use negative racial traits in games as stand-ins for racial traits of real world peoples....

"There's this race of big violent people that are all just genetically stupid and they're all menacing and always evil"

Sounds like something HP Lovecraft might have said, if you know what I mean....

There is a real easy answer to that, just... don't. Don't associate them with a real group of people when you write it. It isn't terribly hard unless someone is looking for a reason to be mad at something and decides to stretch.

[Friv]

So this is sure a thing.

On the one hand, assuming that this filing is true, WotC are being absolute [redacted]s about this, because they're trying to kill the project without triggering the actual termination fees and giving W&H some stuff.

On the other hand, Dragonlance is a wildly difficult property that just overflows with racism (and not just the gully dwarves, although they are abhorrent - also everything around the Plainsmen, a lot of things with the elves, and quite a bit with half-elves and the like), and despite saying that they accommodated all requests for changes, they also admit that there were sensitivity issues about rewrites that they made to fix sensitivity issues. In my experience as an author, if someone asks you to change work, and you change it, and then they say that your changes are running into the same problem that they asked you to change the first time, that is a really bad sign for the continuation of your project.

I'm curious to see how WotC responds.

[warty goblin]

It would also be hard to remove them without warping Rasitlin's character arc, as they are one of the few beings that he actually shows sympathy and empathy towards. Because everyone does look down on Gully Dwarves for living in squalor except for him.

I think you could actually rework gully dwarves pretty easily without a lot of ripple effects, at least for the mainline novels. IIRC they only really appear in a couple places; Xak Tsaroth, the minor character Sestun, as slave labor in Pax Tharkas, in the war dead in a single scene in War of the Twins, and the whole Raistlin/ Bupu relationship.

Basically none of these require all gully dwarves to be congenitally stupid. They do need to be generally mistreated by the other peoples, but this isn't really a reach in DL, and having characters in the novels be racist isn't neccessarily a problem. Having the universe prove the racists right is a problem.

The key attributes of the Xak Tsaroth gully dwarves from a story perspective is that they are kind of cowardly, and double cross the party. They've been isolated for 300 years and so don't really do the whole fighting thing (or the education thing if you want to stick with not being able to count) and have no reason not to double cross the party, who really are just the latest batch of invaders.

If you shift Sestun to not be an idiot, it changes basically nothing. Having him still be intimidated and bullied by Toede and the draconians is fine, he just needs to not be an idiot. With a little work you could contrast him with the Xak Tsaroth gully dwarves, since Sestun presumably didn't grow up in an abandoned ruin.

Same for the gully dwarves in Pax Tharkas. Change like 10 sentences and they're just dwarves enslaved by evil people.

Bupu also is pretty easy. She's from Xak Tsaroth, so her being treated badly by outsiders due to her particular cultural oddities still works. She's still powerless and scorned, so the beats with Raistlin are all basically intact.

Ok, so you would have to ditch the backstory with the Greygem of Gargath, but I have a hard time imagining many tears being shed for that. Its already a retcon, just write it off as another legend and make up something new to explain kander, gnomes, and why nobody likes gully dwarves.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
*psst* people often use negative racial traits in games as stand-ins for racial traits of real world peoples....

I've been playing editions of this game since the 80s, and never once saw anything remotely like that at a gaming table.

And I've been reading Tolkien since early grade school, and never once thought of orcs as anything but monsters in a fantasy world.

Originally Posted by Dragonus45
Hardly the kind of think I would imagine shutting a whole book down over though.

The Outlander books could never have been written if that were the case, and that would be a loss. Fortunately the TV adaptation has managed to negotiate the shoals well enough thus far.

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