Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLI: Secondary Opinions

[Forum Explorer]

But I don't know what that is.
When someone says 'casual', I assume that we're going to take 3-4 hours to play a game, instead of a tight 2, and one or both of us have had beers for lunch less than half an hour ago...Or between Turns 2 and 3, so the end game is more bearable.

But when you say casual list, that doesn't mean anything to me. Well, it does:

It means bad list.

But what is bad against Slaanesh Daemons, isn't bad against Guard.

This is where I start struggling; Are you asking your opponent to have a different list for every opponent?

Well for 8th, I had a couple of rules when making a casual list. It was stuff like 'Monofaction', 'Don't use the best faction,' and finally 'Find a challenge'

The last is the kinda vague one, but is was often pick a 'bad' unit, and try and make it work. Like taking Fuegan and Karandras in the same army. But it was often as simple as, okay that unit that does the most work in my games? I'm going to try and win without it. Or the unit that I haven't used in a while? I'm going to build an army around that.

[Renegade Paladin]

I build my lists, casual or competitive, around a theme. Usually it's tanks, but I have the tools to run basically any Imperial Guard list you could name as long as it doesn't involve Sentinels or Ogryns. Usually it's an armored detachment with mechanized infantry support, but another favorite is a platoon dug in calling for airborne reinforcements, which looks about like this:



How fine-tuned I make the optimization around that theme is all that separates casual and competitive for me. As a result, I rarely rise above the middle tables at large events, but I have yet to do worse than 2/3 in GTs (and I was well on my way to winning the third loss but got slow played into a three turn game behind by two points with 3/4 of the other guy's army wiped out).

[Cheesegear]

It was stuff like 'Monofaction'

Go back to 8th Ed. Post-Psychic Awakening and in 9th Ed., you're incentivised to do that.
...What you really want to do is nerf yourself for no reason, and play multi-Faction. But that's not what we're talking about.

'Don't use the best faction,'

According to whom? Right now, I'm convinced that Space Marines are the best Faction in the game.
However, according to very flawed data from Goonhammer, the best armies are Custodes, Sororitas and Harlequins.

But let's say that that is a hard rule. You're straight-up telling people with those armies to go **** themselves.

and finally 'Find a challenge':
[...1] but is was often pick a 'bad' unit, and try and make it work.
[...2] that unit that does the most work in my games? I'm going to try and win without it.
[...3] Or the unit that I haven't used in a while? I'm going to build an army around that.

And that's where I can't follow:

1. I do my very best not to have any bad units in my army case. The only bad units I have is because I bought them when they were good, and then GW nerfed them, and I haven't gotten around to selling them or throwing them in the garbage yet. In the last...10 years...The only sale I regret is my three Vindicators. 'Cause in 9th Ed. they're really good and I wish I had them back. But Hell, what if I still did have my three Vindicators that were really good? Would people play against me if I threw Three T8 models on the board with a 2+ save? Or am I glad to have sold them because whiners wouldn't let me use them anyway?

2. Right. You're asking me to replace my models. Anyone else, you're asking to spend more money. We're agreed. In order to get games you have to spend money. Cool.

3. ...Unless you already own the models you can replace with because you've been playing for a long time. But starting a brand new Escalation League, or Hell forbid, a Crusade army, or starting a brand new army for any reason, I suppose. You have what you have and you can break the game by accident.

Speaking of; **** me dead.
Bought the Blood Angels Codex from the new gamestore in my town earlier this morning (Blood Angels Guide incoming).
Met up with a guy who started Custodes for 9th Ed. because the 2020 price hike in Australia means that starting any other army from scratch just isn't viable for most people. He can't get games because nobody from the casual gamestore wants to play against Custodes.

But he has no other choice. You're telling him to go **** himself. What a great start to a new hobby store where people are already refusing games.

[Forum Explorer]

Go back to 8th Ed. Post-Psychic Awakening and in 9th Ed., you're incentivised to do that.
...What you really want to do is nerf yourself for no reason, and play multi-Faction. But that's not what we're talking about.



According to whom? Right now, I'm convinced that Space Marines are the best Faction in the game.
However, according to very flawed data from Goonhammer, the best armies are Custodes, Sororitas and Harlequins.

But let's say that that is a hard rule. You're straight-up telling people with those armies to go **** themselves.



And that's where I can't follow:

1. I do my very best not to have any bad units in my army case. The only bad units I have is because I bought them when they were good, and then GW nerfed them, and I haven't gotten around to selling them or throwing them in the garbage yet. In the last...10 years...The only sale I regret is my three Vindicators. 'Cause in 9th Ed. they're really good and I wish I had them back. But Hell, what if I still did have my three Vindicators that were really good? Would people play against me if I threw Three T8 models on the board with a 2+ save? Or am I glad to have sold them because whiners wouldn't let me use them anyway?

2. Right. You're asking me to replace my models. Anyone else, you're asking to spend more money. We're agreed. In order to get games you have to spend money. Cool.

3. ...Unless you already own the models you can replace with because you've been playing for a long time. But starting a brand new Escalation League, or Hell forbid, a Crusade army, or starting a brand new army for any reason, I suppose. You have what you have and you can break the game by accident.

Speaking of; **** me dead.
Bought the Blood Angels Codex from the new gamestore in my town earlier this morning (Blood Angels Guide incoming).
Met up with a guy who started Custodes for 9th Ed. because the 2020 price hike in Australia means that starting any other army from scratch just isn't viable for most people. He can't get games because nobody from the casual gamestore wants to play against Custodes.

But he has no other choice. You're telling him to go **** himself. What a great start to a new hobby store where people are already refusing games.

I'm evidently using the wrong term, but I actually can't think of what the right general term is. By Faction I mean stuff like Altiaoc, Bein-Tan, Samm-Hann, ect. So rather than maximizing relics, stratagems, and unit potential by going multi-faction, I would choose one, and stick with just that one. And Altiaoc would be forbidden since for the longest time, it was the out and out best.


1. I don't sell my models, ever. My collection has only grown, so I have plenty of options for most of my armies. If you regularly prune your collection of bad models than of course my method won't work for you.

2. No, I'm telling you what I personally did, and can do, because I have a large collection.

3. Not at all. If you've set out and built a competitive army, than look for competitive games. Or is there no desire for competitive games in your meta? Cause from the stories you've told me, I'd have a hard time believing that.

[Cheesegear]

This represents the worst list I can make using models I own for some reason.

Spoiler

Show

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour - 100 Points
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour - 100 Points

Intercessors (x5); Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points
Intercessors (x5); Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points

Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Boltgun & Chainsword - 80 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points

Inceptors (x3) - 120 Points
Inceptors (x3) - 120 Points
Inceptors (x3) - 120 Points

Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points

Total: 1618 Points

I have 382 Points left, and only 1 HQ and 3 Elite slots. I want to throw in a Captain so that my Hellblasters don't explode themselves when shooting Damage 4 weapons at Tanks.
I'm sure there's someone out there who will still be able to complain that this list is still good, because it's Space Marines. But also, can't have Captains because force multiplying Hellblasters makes them too good.

[Squark]

I'm evidently using the wrong term, but I actually can't think of what the right general term is. By Faction I mean stuff like Altiaoc, Bein-Tan, Samm-Hann, ect. So rather than maximizing relics, stratagems, and unit potential by going multi-faction, I would choose one, and stick with just that one. And Altiaoc would be forbidden since for the longest time, it was the out and out best.

Okay, but 8.5 and 9th reversed that trend. Now going multi-faction is shooting yourself in the foot- I think a number of units just don't do what they're supposed to if you're not mono-faction.

As for subfaction... many communities insist your subfaction should match your paint job, so switching subfacti9ns often isn't possible.

[JNAProductions]

This represents the worst list I can make using models I own for some reason.

Spoiler

Show

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour - 100 Points
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour - 100 Points

Intercessors (x5); Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points
Intercessors (x5); Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points

Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Boltgun & Chainsword - 80 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points

Inceptors (x3) - 120 Points
Inceptors (x3) - 120 Points
Inceptors (x3) - 120 Points

Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points

Total: 1884 Points

I have 116 Points left, and only 1 HQ slot left. I want to throw in a Captain so that my Hellblasters don't explode themselves when shooting Damage 4 weapons at Tanks.
I'm sure there's someone out there who will still be able to complain that this list is still good, because it's Space Marines. But also, can't have Captains because force multiplying Hellblasters makes them too good.

Notably, that list is illegal-you have six units of scouts, and they're subject to the Rule of Three.

[Cheesegear]

Notably, that list is illegal-you have six units of scouts, and they're subject to the Rule of Three.

...Of course.
Scouts are so bad that you can't even spam them anymore. Looks like I need to sell my redundant Scouts now.
I can't totally sell them, because Concealed Positions and Land Speeder Storms, either way, are playable. But I do have a lot of Sniper Scouts I can't even run anymore.

What's worse? A Contemptor Dreadnought or a unit of Shootynators?

[Drasius]

Numpties guide to listbuilding:

Does your army have a theme (other than winning) and would it look out of place in a tournament?

If yes to both of the above, you're good to go for bringing a casual list 90% of the time.

If said army is netlisted, do not collect 200 Imperial Credits, do not pass the Imperial Palace, go directly to the eye of terror.

If said army has multiple units that could be argued as best in codex, return to the question of "would it look out of place in a tournament?".

[Forum Explorer]

Okay, but 8.5 and 9th reversed that trend. Now going multi-faction is shooting yourself in the foot- I think a number of units just don't do what they're supposed to if you're not mono-faction.

As for subfaction... many communities insist your subfaction should match your paint job, so switching subfacti9ns often isn't possible.

Subfaction would be the word I was looking for. And yes, that one doesn't really apply to 9th anymore.


I've never agreed with that, and much like the 10 VP points for painting, I'd argue heavily against that. To the point where if someone insisted that my subfaction match my color scheme, I'd flat out refuse to play them.

Not that it would apply to me in the first place. I never have my color scheme match a known faction in the first place. Or would they insist that I than can't have a subfaction trait at all?

[Drasius]

What's worse? A Contemptor Dreadnought or a unit of Shootynators?

Take a look at Shootynators and then take a look at Aggressors.

A 'temptor can ride in a Stormraven IIRC, but other than that, unless it's dual Kheres and you're facing down DG a bunch, I'm not sure how much use one has.

[Cheesegear]

Does your army have a theme (other than winning) and would it look out of place in a tournament?

Once again, we're back to ostracising people who make a themed list, but, the themed list is accidentally good.
Can't run Ghazgkull and Meganobz. Even if you like the models. Even if you like the Fluff around the central character that is the poster-Ork for playing Orks.
Got it.

A 'temptor can ride in a Stormraven IIRC, but other than that, unless it's dual Kheres and you're facing down DG a bunch, I'm not sure how much use one has.

Contemptor it is. Wait. A Contemptor is a DREADNOUGHT, so I can use Wisdom of the Ancients, giving my Hellblasters re-roll 1s to hit. That's not allowed.
Damn. I can't fit two units of Terminators in, so I have to run a Contemptor.

Shootynators it is.

I realise that Imperial Fist Inceptors get extra shots, and Inceptors aren't even that bad. So let's drop them down to a single unit 5, and add another Contemptor in. Actually, let's just delete Inceptors altogether. S5, AP-1 with six shots with extra shots, is too good.

Spoiler: Imperial Fists

Show

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour - 100 Points
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour - 100 Points

Intercessors (x5); Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points
Intercessors (x5); Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points

Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Contemptor Dreadnought - 150 Points

Inceptors (x3) - 120 Points

Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points

Total: 1968 Points

That's nearly the worst list I'm able to run using the models I currently own. Now all's that left is to deliberately pick out the worst Relic and Warlord Trait.
But now that I have Contemptors my Hellblasters are useful. So I can switch to two Thunderfire Cannons and a Hunter?
Umm...Making an intentionally bad list is harder than I thought.

[Drasius]

Once again, we're back to ostracising people who make a themed list, but, the themed list is accidentally good.
Can't run Ghazgkull and Meganobz. Even if you like the models. Even if you like the Fluff around the central character that is the poster-Ork for playing Orks.
Got it.

Now you're just being a ****head for the sake of it, but I'll bite anyway - you know you can have a theme without going full metaslave, right? An actual themed Goff list wouldn't have all Meganobs and 0 boyz or regular nobs.

Contemptor it is. Wait. A Contemptor is a DREADNOUGHT, so I can use Wisdom of the Ancients, giving my Hellblasters re-roll 1s to hit. That's not allowed.
Damn. I can't fit two units of Terminators in, so I have to run a Contemptor.

Shootynators it is.

I realise that Imperial Fist Inceptors get extra shots, and Inceptors aren't even that bad. So let's drop them down to a single unit 5, and add another Contemptor in. Actually, let's just delete Inceptors altogether. S5, AP-1 with six shots with extra shots, is too good.

Spoiler: Imperial Fists

Show

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour - 100 Points
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour - 100 Points

Intercessors (x5); Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points
Intercessors (x5); Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points

Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Contemptor Dreadnought - 150 Points

Inceptors (x3) - 120 Points

Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points

Total: 1968 Points

That's nearly the worst list I'm able to run using the models I currently own. Now all's that left is to deliberately pick out the worst Relic and Warlord Trait.
But now that I have Contemptors my Hellblasters are useful. So I can switch to two Thunderfire Cannons and a Hunter?
Umm...Making an intentionally bad list is harder than I thought.

Still being a ****head. If I'm losing patience for your shenanigans, I can only imagine that others are too.

[Cheesegear]

Now you're just being a ****head for the sake of it, but I'll bite anyway - you know you can have a theme without going full metaslave, right? An actual themed Goff list wouldn't have all Meganobs and 0 boyz or regular nobs.

Current Goff lists run 9 Meganobz and 60 Boys to make the the Battalion. Remember - like I forgot - rule of three still exists and running 'elite' units with more than 5 models is actually a downgrade.

So the max you get is 3x5 Meganobz. But it's not actually worth it. 3x3 is actually more effecient, and also you need the points to fill your Battalion.

Still being a ****head. If I'm losing patience for your shenanigans, I can only imagine that others are too.

Actually, now I'm not. That's a legitimate list that I'm going to run in one next games per the Challenge put forward by Forum Explorer.

This is now a real exercise. How bad can I be and still win games. For real. That's the worst list I have, and if it can still win games convincingly, then I can prove that I've accidentally broken it simply by running units that I like that aren't even that good. If I barely win games, then I guess that that is the actual list I can run now, playing Space Marines and getting games. That is a list, using all models I like - except for the Phobos Lieutenants, but I just have them.

That's real. This is you saying that the Craftworlds Codex is broken because you made random army by rolling a D6.
Trying to prove a point, and I'm actually putting my models where my mouth is.

[Forum Explorer]

Once again, we're back to ostracising people who make a themed list, but, the themed list is accidentally good.
Can't run Ghazgkull and Meganobz. Even if you like the models. Even if you like the Fluff around the central character that is the poster-Ork for playing Orks.
Got it.



Contemptor it is. Wait. A Contemptor is a DREADNOUGHT, so I can use Wisdom of the Ancients, giving my Hellblasters re-roll 1s to hit. That's not allowed.
Damn. I can't fit two units of Terminators in, so I have to run a Contemptor.

Shootynators it is.

I realise that Imperial Fist Inceptors get extra shots, and Inceptors aren't even that bad. So let's drop them down to a single unit 5, and add another Contemptor in. Actually, let's just delete Inceptors altogether. S5, AP-1 with six shots with extra shots, is too good.

Spoiler: Imperial Fists

Show

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour - 100 Points
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour - 100 Points

Intercessors (x5); Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points
Intercessors (x5); Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 100 Points

Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Contemptor Dreadnought - 150 Points

Inceptors (x3) - 120 Points

Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points

Total: 1968 Points

That's nearly the worst list I'm able to run using the models I currently own. Now all's that left is to deliberately pick out the worst Relic and Warlord Trait.
But now that I have Contemptors my Hellblasters are useful. So I can switch to two Thunderfire Cannons and a Hunter?
Umm...Making an intentionally bad list is harder than I thought.

Scouts are an Elite now right? I think you've got too many elite choices now. Unless you upgrade to a Brigade, though I don't know if that makes the list better or worse.

[Cheesegear]

Alright, let's get back to talking about list-building. Remember when I posted lists and gave people advice on their army lists? That I haven't done in...A while. Feels good.

Also, I way overcosted Lieutenants (Pretty sure I read the Captain in Terminator Armour entry. Captain in Phobos Armour, next one down is Lieutenant, right? Makes sense.). My bad. Can fit in an extra Inceptor.

I don't know if I want to have one or both units in Teleport Strike, for Turn 1. But also if my opponent goes first I need something for them to shoot at that isn't my Hellblasters. So I might just put them on the board and have them walking. But if they're walking, they get -1 to hit on those Cyclones, which might be a problem. I think I can justify a Captain in Phobos Armour. His weapon is an Assault weapon with only one shot, so it's not like it's good, so he's happy moving up the board, whilst handing out re-roll 1s to hit. With my last 15 Points I may as well put AGLs on my Intercessors.

Spoiler

Show

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Captain in Phobos Armour - 95 Points
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour - 80 Points For the record, this is the only model in the list I 'don't like'.

Intercessors (x5); AGL, Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 105 Points
Intercessors (x5); AGL, Auto Bolt Rifles, Auto Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 105 Points
Intercessors (x5); AGL, Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 105 Points

Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Boltguns, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 85 Points
Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles (x4) - 93 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Terminator Squad (x5); Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfists (x2), Teleport Homer - 220 Points
Contemptor Dreadnought - 150 Points

Inceptors (x4) - 160 Points

Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 165 Points

Total: 1998 Points

'Kay. Game plan:
Scouts take up Concealed Positions to prevent my opponent from making Turn 1 Charges, and/or getting me early board-control Objectives like Deploy Scramblers. My Scouts can also run Hellfire Shells and/or Flakk Missile 'cause never leave home without them. The Hellblasters set up a castle around the Contemptor Dreadnought for Wisdom of the Ancients to proc, so that I can Supercharge the Heavy Plasmas without feeling bad, which combines with Imperial Fists' Devastator Doctrine to make AP-5, 4-Damage Lascannons. 3 solid hits and that's a dead Leman Russ, I think. IIRC they're 12 Wounds. They might be 13. I forget. But I'm pretty sure each Hellbaster unit should be able to remove a Vehicle on Turn 1, for probably 3 guaranteed VPs of the Astartes Secondary which is destroy 5 (max.) units while Devastator Doctrine is up.

EDIT: Derp. If I've got a Captain now, I can have the Dreadnought move up the board with the Terminators, and the Captain with the ranged attack back with the Hellblasters. That makes way more sense. But regardless, I still have to burn 1 CP a turn for Wisdom. But as yet I'm not spending CPs on extra Warlord Traits and Relics. So I do have the CPs to spare.

As mentioned, I can put my Terminators in Teleport Strike, but I don't know if I should. We'll find out how it fares. EDIT: No wait, Inceptors can Death From Above. That works better.

The list feels like it can work. I never would've built it if Forum Explorer didn't force the idea into my head. Cheers.

Will try and organise a game tomorrow at new game store, but on short notice probably wont get one 'til next week.

[LeSwordfish]

Okay, but 8.5 and 9th reversed that trend. Now going multi-faction is shooting yourself in the foot- I think a number of units just don't do what they're supposed to if you're not mono-faction.

As for subfaction... many communities insist your subfaction should match your paint job, so switching subfacti9ns often isn't possible.

I reckon any but the worst stickler wouldn't mind too much if you just quietly told them "I'm playing X because the one they're painted as is too good". I also think it's worth bearing in mind that Forum_Explorer's rules were for himself, not intended for the general case.

If the theme someone wants to run is super good, this feels like the kind of thing that can be solved with a conversation, and by other people trying to match their level, rather than just refusing to play them or whatever. You know what the guy at the club is like, you can say "hey your meganobs list is really tough, mind if I go back to playing imperial fists?" or whatever. You can know if someone's deliberately or accidentally ended up with something nasty and respond accordingly to that.

[Adrastos42]

Speaking of list-building, has anyone given the Battle Forge list builder beta a go? Any thoughts?

Though I imagine at best, it's going to be "quite good, but not enough to justify paying a subscription over free Battlescribe":D

(As for why I'm asking rather than trying it myself, I won't have any of the books to enter codes for until later this month)

[LansXero]

Everyone keeps glossing over the absolute nonsense that buying crap units / units whose theme you dont like is. Not even buying, but also building and painting them. Why? If I like Alaitoc and I have planes 'cause I think they look slick, why would I waste money on warwalkers, support weapons, banshees or scorpions (during 8th) if the first two suck and the second two suck, look ugly as sin due to being failcast AND are some of the most expensive points/$ units in the codex ? Why would i spend good money on crap, to even open up the option?

Speaking of list-building, has anyone given the Battle Forge list builder beta a go? Any thoughts?

Though I imagine at best, it's going to be "quite good, but not enough to justify paying a subscription over free Battlescribe":D

(As for why I'm asking rather than trying it myself, I won't have any of the books to enter codes for until later this month)

That last bit should tell you all you need to know about it.

[LeSwordfish]

Everyone keeps glossing over the absolute nonsense that buying crap units / units whose theme you dont like is. Not even buying, but also building and painting them. Why? If I like Alaitoc and I have planes 'cause I think they look slick, why would I waste money on warwalkers, support weapons, banshees or scorpions (during 8th) if the first two suck and the second two suck, look ugly as sin due to being failcast AND are some of the most expensive points/$ units in the codex ? Why would i spend good money on crap, to even open up the option?

I don't think people are glossing over the idea of "buying units you don't like so you can play worse" they're just ignoring it because it's silly and nobody is saying it.

[Adrastos42]

That last bit should tell you all you need to know about it.

I mean yep, fair, absolutely. But I'm still curious about how good or bad it is in situations where you do own all the relevant books. Even if that does get less and less likely if you factor in supplements and psychic awakening and any new campaign extras and... Oh dear.

[LansXero]

I don't think people are glossing over the idea of "buying units you don't like so you can play worse" they're just ignoring it because it's silly and nobody is saying it.

Aren't they? They expect people to 'play down', which requires models which you have no reason to own. Yes, nobody is saying 'go and buy new bad stuff', they just expect you to have bad stuff from previous bad purchases. Isnt that the same as expecting casuals to have good stuff from previous good purchases? I mean, you're playing lets say IG; why dont you have 3 tank commanders? What do you mean you cant 'play up' ?

[Avaris]

I mean yep, fair, absolutely. But I'm still curious about how good or bad it is in situations where you do own all the relevant books. Even if that does get less and less likely if you factor in supplements and psychic awakening and any new campaign extras and... Oh dear.

Worth noting that all the 8th ed books, including PA, are included if you subscribe, though not necessarily in a user friendly manner.

My position continues to be that it is not yet worth paying money for. But once they remove the ‘beta’ flag, and I’m playing regularly again, I probably will. It is showing a good direction of travel, but should have been released as a free service from the start. If they have to charge something, they should be charging on a per book basis, with the codes still included in the paper versions. Buy the physical book, get the code. Don’t want to get the physical book? Get the code for the digital access more cheaply (say 20% of the cost of the physical book).

[Renegade Paladin]

Aren't they? They expect people to 'play down', which requires models which you have no reason to own. Yes, nobody is saying 'go and buy new bad stuff', they just expect you to have bad stuff from previous bad purchases. Isnt that the same as expecting casuals to have good stuff from previous good purchases? I mean, you're playing lets say IG; why dont you have 3 tank commanders? What do you mean you cant 'play up' ?

So, fun fact, there's no separate Tank Commander model. I know not all other factions have this going on, but a Guard player can take the Imperial Guard units that any Guard player has and run them as two or three different things without changing anything, for the most part - there are no separate models for tank commanders, veterans, conscripts, etc. That all depends on how your organize your list. I can play as far up or as far down as I like, and barring my whole faction being in the toilet I can do it all with things I already own, and that doesn't even depend on having a particularly giant collection (though I do anyway).

[LansXero]

Weird, I always thought the 'Commander' was the one bit the little dude sticking out of the turret. Guess thats just a minor detail then.

But, more to the point, sponsons and variants then. Which... also do come 2/3 per Russ box so can be swapped around without extra spending.

Guess that would skew perspective huh? Since for Eldar, for example, most vehicles are almost the same but not quite so additional box it is.

[LeSwordfish]

Aren't they? They expect people to 'play down', which requires models which you have no reason to own. Yes, nobody is saying 'go and buy new bad stuff', they just expect you to have bad stuff from previous bad purchases. Isnt that the same as expecting casuals to have good stuff from previous good purchases? I mean, you're playing lets say IG; why dont you have 3 tank commanders? What do you mean you cant 'play up' ?

I'm happy to extend the same courtesy to a comp player who can't "play down" as they would extend to a casual player who can't "play up", however that happens - perhaps that means trying to meet in the middle, perhaps that means playing a more competitive game than I normally would, perhaps that means mutually accepting we wouldn't have a fun time playing each other.

[Renegade Paladin]

The Leman Russ kit predates Tank Commanders even being a thing. The unit didn't exist until the end of 6th edition and the current Russ kit dates from the end of 4th (and the one prior to that also had a guy you could have sticking out the hatch). I have a hard time believing it was their intent to make that bit represent a unit that wouldn't exist for like four more years.

[LansXero]

The Leman Russ kit predates Tank Commanders even being a thing. The unit didn't exist until the end of 6th edition and the current Russ kit dates from the end of 4th (and the one prior to that also had a guy you could have sticking out the hatch). I have a hard time believing it was their intent to make that bit represent a unit that wouldn't exist for like four more years.

Ah I see. I was going from Pask being literally just the little dude, so I thought the dude means commander tank, named dude means named commander tank.


Now I know better, thank you.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm not a great example re: Leman Russes because I have eleven, which is perhaps a little harder into one kit than most people go, but to distinguish my tank commander I gave her the big cadian banner in the command squad kit - looks fantastic leading a squadron of tanks.

[Renegade Paladin]

I intentionally go for subtle utilitarian in my army - the tank commanders get radio antennas, and everybody's buttoned up (except for one that I got secondhand and don't want to break trying to modify).