OOTS #1217 - The Discussion Thread

[Jason]

Yes. Yes that, uh, is the common tactic. That's exactly how the spell is used.

Yep, sorry. Forgot how silence 3.5 works for a minute there. My mistake.

[Jaziggy]

So i understand that though Durkon is older than Roy, he's at roughly the same age state (young adult) as him. I've never thought about him calling Roy "lad" before, does he see him as a younger peer or closer to whatever a 20-something dwarf would be? Obviously he looks up to Roy as a leader and treats him as an adult and everything, i'm just curious now that i've noticed it.

I think Durkon is the 'party mom'. His paternal feelings towards Roy aren't surprising, even though he thinks of Roy as the strategic/official leader of the group.

[Psyren]

Note that casting it on an object/floor tile/air molecule/etc isn't an auto-win vs. casters either. All they have to do is walk out of it and then cast.

To get a mobile Silence you have to put it directly on the creature, causing the save/SR to apply.

Other useful tactics with Silence include disabling an enemy's bardic music buffs, and hard-countering very dangerous sonic spells like Blasphemy or Wail of the Banshee.

[Metastachydium]

To be fair, Redcloack doesn't know they were spied by the paladins.

Indeed. He does know, however, that the 1) the Order is somewhere close by and 2) he has very good reason to suspect that they were spied on, since Durkon managed to find him at a surprisingly opportune moment when Xykon was not around.
I brought up the paladins mostly to point out that Redcloak would even be right in formulating such a theory, because it was not only possible but also done.

Um, silence is basically a flat NOPE to almost all casters in close quarters (like many places inside a dungeon), and it's only level 2. How many useful spells have no verbal component?

I checked it out in the online SRD out of curiosity, and I only found four spells with no verbal component (Gaseous Form, Mislead, Hide from Animals and Glibness) on all spell lists.

[gatemansgc]

Well, if nothing else it appears Durkon realised he just catastrophically messed things up for the rest of the party by attempting to carry out his god's wishes...

but somehow not enough to make this book short, the giant promised us this would be around as long as the other books so the finale is still a while away!

so somehow the final confrontation won't happen yet!

[Jaziggy]

I'm on Team "the MitD should be the main suspect here and the only thing protecting him is the fact that everybody underestimates him". While I think it's quite plausible that the presence of Durkon and Minrah will shield the MitD from suspicion, I don't think that would stand to scrutiny if Redcloak distrusted the MitD enough to bother investigating properly.

Like, it's the exact same paint on all doors, for starters.

I agree with this. I think the baddies would pin the paint on MitD, or at least not totally overlook it as a possibility. It's the same paint, they asked him to do it, and they think of him as a screw-up.

What would surprise me is if they assumed he had intentionally painted the door. It's much easier for them to assume the guy they think of as a screw-up, well, screwed up.

It's the kind of thing that might add some suspicion of his loyalty into the minds of Xykon and RC, but unless MitD simply admits to his motivations, it is unlikely to cause a rupture in their alliance.

[Baine]

I'm a bit confused. Why would Team Evil automatically know it's the exact same paint? It's paint. Red is red. Not that hard to reproduce if you're an adventuring party trying to foil Team Evil's plans.

[WanderingMist]

Taking into account that half the fun of 3.5 is trying to interpret the rules...the spell description itself says that, "The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves." Within that effect is absolute silence. Again, per the description. Unwilling recipients get a Will save against the effects. Greyview got one, and blew it.

If any of the other three members of TE got within 20 feet of Greyview, why wouldn't they be subject to the spell---so long as they remained within 20 feet---barring a save and spell resistance? Especially if Greyview---running Silently---is able to get within 20 feet, or whatever the radius is, without TE noticing.

In practice, it's a Will save, and probably trivial for RC. Maybe X too. Provided they're not up to their necks in monsters, easy to Dispel.

But that interpretation doesn't make sense, because Durkon couldn't talk within the radius of the spell either, he's the one who cast it in the first place, there's no reason to think he wouldn't be unwilling to succumb to its effects, and I'm pretty sure clerics have naturally high Will saves.

[Jaziggy]

I'm a bit confused. Why would Team Evil automatically know it's the exact same paint? It's paint. Red is red. Not that hard to reproduce if you're an adventuring party trying to foil Team Evil's plans.

Adventurers are not typically wandering around the landscape with paint. I think if MitD says 'no definitely wasn't me, was probably those adventurers' the baddies would believe it. I think if he says 'oh- yeah I must have painted the wrong door lol my bad!' the baddies would believe it. What they won't do is jump to the conclusion the MitD did it and that he was doing it in order to assist the Order/the cause of Good.

[Gnoman]

Paint is a pretty reasonable thing for adventuring parties to be carrying around, honestly. If your profession routinely sends you into unmapped ruins you don't care about desecrating, paint is a great way to show where you've been!

[Thermophille]

I think Redcloak is the only one likely to suspect MitD. He's more perceptive, and has likely caught onto at least some of MitD's suspicious activities (friendship with O-Chull for example).

I think it's likely that Redcloak raises the possibility that MitD painted additional doors, and Xykon immediately shoots the possibility down as ridiculous, and points to the obvious group of adventurers on their doorstep.

[Jason]

Note that casting it on an object/floor tile/air molecule/etc isn't an auto-win vs. casters either. All they have to do is walk out of it and then cast.

To get a mobile Silence you have to put it directly on the creature, causing the save/SR to apply.

Other useful tactics with Silence include disabling an enemy's bardic music buffs, and hard-countering very dangerous sonic spells like Blasphemy or Wail of the Banshee.

A counter is the Silent Spell metamagic feat.

[Olinser]

It's interesting to me that this is actually a confirmation that Greyview can actually SPEAK Common. We'd only seen him really talking to Oona and MiTD before, I was actually kind of under the impression that he could only be understood by those 2 and that was a clue to MiTD's nature.

But now he's talking to Dwarves :(


Also, in before this door is actually the right one (or alternately, that NO DOOR was correct until the destruction of the Kraagor guardian statute).

Although at this point I still think that there is some kind of combination lock on the Gate - it's not about an individual door, it's about a specific combination of doors, opening in sequence, that gets you to the Gate.

[Psyren]

A counter is the Silent Spell metamagic feat.

While this is true, prepared casters like Redcloak have to apply that to their spells in advance (or use a rod.) So movement is the more common strategy to beat it.

I think Redcloak is the only one likely to suspect MitD. He's more perceptive, and has likely caught onto at least some of MitD's suspicious activities (friendship with O-Chull for example).

I think it's likely that Redcloak raises the possibility that MitD painted additional doors, and Xykon immediately shoots the possibility down as ridiculous, and points to the obvious group of adventurers on their doorstep.

While this is plausible, we're also at or near the story's final act. MitD's duplicity has to surface eventually, so that could start to germinate now.

[Wraithfighter]

A counter is the Silent Spell metamagic feat.

...and you know what? I'd bet that Xykon has access to that, either through a feat or a magic item.

Xykon's combat strategy is blunt, but effective. He favors brute force, highly-flashy attacks absolutely... but also knows Superb Dispelling, an epic spell that's not exactly simple to acquire and, well, isn't flashy. It just means that, if Xykon does go up against an enemy that can protect themselves from his major array of devastating spells, he can open it all up with a single spell, and then get back to spamming Energy Drain.

And to paraphrase one of Xykon's more impressive speeches? If power is something that you can lose by being next to someone targeted by a 2nd level Cleric spell, than it's not something you had in the first place. Xykon's build is all about two things: Overkilling things, and removing barriers that might prevent him from overkilling things. Silent Spell is absolutely something he'd take to cover more bases.

[Jason]

It's interesting to me that this is actually a confirmation that Greyview can actually SPEAK Common. We'd only seen him really talking to Oona and MiTD before, I was actually kind of under the impression that he could only be understood by those 2 and that was a clue to MiTD's nature.

But now he's talking to Dwarves :(

All worgs speak Worg, and the Monster Manual notes that some also speak Common and Goblin.

[Hopeless]

Just a thought but can Mordenkainen's Fantastic Mansion be used to simulate everything we've been witnessing from all those various doors?

So when that wolf reaches the others and they quickly realise he's the focus of a silence spell Xykon being a sorceror will spend sorcery points to cast a Silent version of his maximised Dispel Magic and also dispels the "Mansion" they've been unknowingly delving within revealing the real Tomb of Kraagor?

Is that possible?

Its just those invisible servitors might be part of that spell and that's why they think everything is about to end?

[Thermophille]

Just a thought but can Mordenkainen's Fantastic Mansion be used to simulate everything we've been witnessing from all those various doors?

So when that wolf reaches the others and they quickly realise he's the focus of a silence spell Xykon being a sorceror will spend sorcery points to cast a Silent version of his maximised Dispel Magic and also dispels the "Mansion" they've been unknowingly delving within revealing the real Tomb of Kraagor?

Is that possible?

Its just those invisible servitors might be part of that spell and that's why they think everything is about to end?

Xykon's only dispelling is an epic-levelled spell, and I doubt Redcloak prepared it on a dungeon-delving day.

That also seems unlikely narratively, so I'm going to say this is an unlikely event.

[Hopeless]

Xykon's only dispelling is an epic-levelled spell, and I doubt Redcloak prepared it on a dungeon-delving day.

That also seems unlikely narratively, so I'm going to say this is an unlikely event.

Yes it just struck me after reading this episode that it could explain what's going on and it is fitting given its Serini whose behind this.

[Aegeus]

Just a thought but can Mordenkainen's Fantastic Mansion be used to simulate everything we've been witnessing from all those various doors?

So when that wolf reaches the others and they quickly realise he's the focus of a silence spell Xykon being a sorceror will spend sorcery points to cast a Silent version of his maximised Dispel Magic and also dispels the "Mansion" they've been unknowingly delving within revealing the real Tomb of Kraagor?

Is that possible?

Its just those invisible servitors might be part of that spell and that's why they think everything is about to end?

No, a seventh-level wizard spell is not capable of creating a giant monster maze that can challenge epic-level sorcerers.

More specifically, Mordy's Magnificent Mansion creates a visible extradimensional portal (while the canyon appears to have no limits on how you fly or walk into it), it has a limited volume (much less than the canyon), and it has no combat power whatsoever. Unseen servants are specifically not capable of making attacks, and can't even exert much force. About the only way to hurt someone with them is to trigger a pre-existing trap. They're also mindless, meaning they couldn't have made conversation like the invisible creatures did.

Also, Serini isn't a caster. While she probably hired some mages to help construct the tomb, she's not a caster herself, which limits the tools she would have had available. If there's any trickery going on here, I expect it's a mundane sort of trickery - the gate being in an unexpected location, or a secret hidden within the dungeon crawls - rather than magically faking the whole dungeon.

[Sylian]

If Minrah gets killed before reaching the Order, would she go to Hel? She's essentially running from a fight, which doesn't seem to fit with "die with honor" from a dwarven perspective. Assuming she doesn't have time to turn around and fight, that is. Oh, and if they hadn't been protected from fire, would she had gone to Hel if she were killed by the Maximized Fireball?

[Thermophille]

On the topic of the residents of the canyon being conjured, illusions, ect; Oona was able to make magic items from the parts of the monsters there, and items with gp values can't be conjured as a rule.

Because of this, we can infer that the monsters are real, though how the tomb is able to attract them is unknown.

[Toper]

I'm hoping we get a comic's worth of failure to communicate among Team Evil as Greyview runs around...

[Psyren]

If Minrah gets killed before reaching the Order, would she go to Hel? She's essentially running from a fight, which doesn't seem to fit with "die with honor" from a dwarven perspective. Assuming she doesn't have time to turn around and fight, that is. Oh, and if they hadn't been protected from fire, would she had gone to Hel if she were killed by the Maximized Fireball?

Given the lengths Thor is willing to go to to argue about it, I'd say it's a toss-up.

For example, you could argue that them attempting to survive so they can try to carry out Thor's orders later is the most honorable thing they could do.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm a bit confused. Why would Team Evil automatically know it's the exact same paint? It's paint. Red is red. Not that hard to reproduce if you're an adventuring party trying to foil Team Evil's plans.

Iron oxide (the usual red pigment up until modern dyes) is amazingly rare.... Well, rust and iron ore and red clay are all amazingly rare some places, like interstellar space.

The binder does matter to both paint texture and color, but yeah, red is not an uncommon paint color because the pigment is so very, very common and consistent. And if we're worrying about problems with getting a consistent binder with medievaloid technology, then we also need to worry about the fact that with the specified medievaloid tech, team evil won't have an airtight seal on their wet paint and will be remixing daily, so if consistent binders are not practical then their paint ALSO will not be consistent day to day.

Paint color is a problem only if we assume that paint color is a problem and that Team Evil is for some reason making their paint by some super-unique special formula. If making red paint, both groups should be using similar binders (probably oil based due to tech limitations and a desire for it to stand up to rain) and identical pigments (iron oxide).

[KorvinStarmast]

If making red paint, both groups should be using similar binders (probably oil based due to tech limitations and a desire for it to stand up to rain) and identical pigments (iron oxide).

Will we now discuss daily changes in humidity and temperature, and the impact that has on the painting process? 😁 (Your point on mixing I'll second in spades based on a repaint of our living room five years ago)

[Elkad]

Also, I see Durkon likes to prep all these super situational spells in the morning. :P

He's going to meet a person (or maybe a group) that his entire party can't beat in a fight.

No point in loading any offensive spells at all. All movement, defense, and utility, including a near-random selection of stuff that might be useful.

[Fish]

Everyone gets a save as they enter the area of effect of the spell. If they make their save they are unaffected by the spell (they can make noise, in this case).

This would be extremely over-powered in the hands of a high-level caster. Cast silence 15' radius on enemy casters, knowing that you'll be able to beat the Will save. I'm sure I would have noticed if the spell had this kind of effect.

The "everybody gets a save" reading requires some creative squinting. You have to believe that people don't get a save against the effect when the spell is cast on an object, but they do get a save against the effect when it's cast on some other person?

I favor the reading that the target gets a save against being targeted. Like putting a bell on a cat. Once you get the bell on, everyone can hear it ring. Or not hear it, as the case may be.

[Riftwolf]

Adventurers are not typically wandering around the landscape with paint.

I once spent my entire WBL on goats, don't assume adventurers only carry the neccesities.
(Also doesn't Elan have a bucket of red paint?)
(Checking the class thread, it was a jar of jam he was painting himself with.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think Durkon is the 'party mom'. His paternal feelings towards Roy aren't surprising, even though he thinks of Roy as the strategic/official leader of the group.

We should also remember that Durkon is now a parent, which has been reliably proven to do a number on how you view others (especially non-parents).

As for how Team Evil can figure out the paint thing, divination spells are a thing, and low level ones are ripe for inscribing on a scroll since you don't need them that often. But a single yes/no question can often eliminate dozens of possibilities.

"Did adventurers paint these doors?"

"No."

"Okay, no adventurers involved. That means it's one of us."