Permanent Symbols. Are they worth it?

[Zombimode]

Symbols (like Symbol of Death or Symbol of Pain) are iconic high level spells - or at least they used to be before 3e.

With a 10 minutes casting time in addition to significant gold cost they are more of a DM tool.

For player the gold cost is prohibitive for spamming them and the casting time makes dynamic use of them difficult. The cases where you really want a Symbol are niche and as such you are likely to pick different spells.


Permanancy makes the gold cost a one-time investment but adds a significant XP cost. It eliminates the casting time issues by, well, making the symbol permanent.

The Symbol spells are customizeable enough to make their use not that awkward in terms of protecting your allies and triggering conditions. They still probably not save to carry arround in civil environments.


The question is: are permanent Symbols worth the cost in gold and xp?
Has anyone experience with permanent symbols on the fighters shield etc.?

"Worth it" in my case does not have to mean "most bang for the buck" or "most optimal use of ressources". Just a reasonable option.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Put it on a masterwork shield, get a Least Crystal of Return and it's pretty much a free-action gaze attack (in that "looks at the symbol" can be a triggering condition). That's worth something.
Note they're permanent until triggered, so the casting time is not an issue, just keep them covered until you need them.

The 1000gp ones are worth carrying one or two of "just in case".
The 5000gp ones less so, and Symbol of Death is only very rarely worth casting because of the hp limit unless you know you're fighting low-hp, low-fort enemies. Like a group of wizards maybe.

Honestly 1000gp to put a symbol on a nonmagical backup shield and just carry it in your haversack until you need the AoE debuff is pretty decent for a one-shot item at mid levels.
Not the best use of your money but certainly decent enough to be worth consideration.
I'd consider making one permanent if you find one that works well for your group/campaign. "Experience is a river" after all so worst case you're only behind for a session or two, if that.

[Segev]

I had an epic level sorcerer once who had a permanent Symbol of Persuasion tattooed on his back. Shrug off his robe and everyone had to save or fall for him. (It has been pointed out to me that I should point out he also had pants on; he was just baring his back doing this.)

[Zombimode]

Good point on also considering using non-permanent symbols, as they don't expire as long as they are not triggered.

Another interessting point is that whenever a creature re-enters the Symbols effect radius (usually 60 ft.) it forces a new save. Under the right circumstances you can affect creatures multiple times per turn by moving (with the surface that holds the Symbol) back and forth

[sleepyphoenixx]

For permanent symbols also consider that they're more similar to 1/encounter wondrous items instead of spells. Viewed in that regard they're actually fairly cheap.

A wondrous item that does a free-action aoe save or stun (assuming a Symbol of Stunning) 1/encounter is worth far more than 5000gp and 3500xp, even before you consider that it uses your wizards actual spellcasting stat - possibly including temporary buffs - for its DC instead of the minimum.

The nearest equivalent would be an unlimited use command word activated item of a 7th level spell, which would cost you 163800gp (or 81900gp and 6552xp if you craft it yourself) if you go by the guidelines for custom items, and that's without the free action activation.

Really their main drawback is that most symbols are mind-affecting or, in the case of Death, the hp limit. Sleep is right out because of its 10 HD limit and being mind-affecting.
For broadest utility the Symbol of Weakness and Pain are probably your best bet if you don't know what you'll be fighting.
Weakness especially can outright cripple anything that isn't str-focused or immune to ability damage.

[Efrate]

Symbol of vulnerability from PF is very worth on a tabard or something you can easily uncover. 40k for at will no save, no SR, party immune (if at time of casting), not mind effecting untyped -4 SR, -4 saves, and reduce all DR and energy resistance by 10 (min 0).

For 3.5 treating the lower level ones as expensive scrolls that use your stats is pretty nice.

[Zombimode]

I already liked the Symbols. But you guys have convinced me that they are even nicer when you know what to expect and how to use them

[sleepyphoenixx]

After looking them up the best (most widely applicable) symbol in 3.5 is probably Dragonmark Symbol (Dragonmarked).
It forces a fort save vs nauseated every round and is an Abjuration with no other descriptor, so only immunity to nausea will block it.

Downside of course being the requirement to have a dragonmark (though those allow some neat spells) and being from a relatively obscure setting-specific book.

[liquidformat]

So pardon my ignorance but where does it say that symbols are one use items once you use them in conjunction with permanency?

Also I think a follower of Ilmater whipping out a holy symbol of Ilmater with the symbol of pain added to it is an awesome idea!

[sleepyphoenixx]

So pardon my ignorance but where does it say that symbols are one use items once you use them in conjunction with permanency?

It doesn't. We were talking about how worthwhile they are both with and without permanency.
A symbol with Permanency only needs 10 minutes between uses.

Also I think a follower of Ilmater whipping out a holy symbol of Ilmater with the symbol of pain added to it is an awesome idea!

Symbol of Pain has the [evil] descriptor, so clerics of good gods can't cast it even if they're neutral.
A wizard could, but one who is a follower of Ilmater likely wouldn't.

[liquidformat]

SufferingSymbol of Pain has the [evil] descriptor, so clerics of good gods can't cast it even if they're neutral.
A wizard could, but one who is a follower of Ilmater likely wouldn't.

I thought Ilmater got an exempt from that since Symbol of Pain does come in the Suffering Domain which is a domain choice for Ilmater...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I thought Ilmater got an exempt from that since Symbol of Pain does come in the Suffering Domain which is a domain choice for Ilmater...

Sorry, but I think that spell level in that domain is basically a big blank spot. You waste your domain spell for that level.

[liquidformat]

Sorry, but I think that spell level in that domain is basically a big blank spot. You waste your domain spell for that level.

hmm if that is the case then eyebite would also be out from the same domain, well that is lame