Korra

[Ramza00]

It did not occur to me on the first watch, but Bumi is 100% a Bard (or, better yet, a Hackmaster Rogue, with a LOT of luck points, that he burned through at an alarming pace in s2e12 Harmonic Convergence).

All I can imagine when I think of Bumi as a young kid is "look at me dad" and he tries to get Aang's attention for Aang is

90% Neutral: (avoidant, withdrawn, indifferent, apathetic, absent, reserved, ignoring, neglectful.) and
10% Responsive: (supportive, responsive, engaging, affectionate, friendly, sympathetic, cooperative.)

Due to the fact Aang has dozens of responsibilities, and even if he wants to be energized by his kids, he is also so focused on spreading his culture that was lost and thus he hyperfocused on Tenzin. Aang was drawn in many directions at once, the obligation to the culture he was born into, the obligation to the current world as of now with being the Avatar, and the obligation to his family, and the individuals inside ones family.

----

Poor Bumi, the Epicure, but also the Envious.

And I just realized his, Bumi's, "airbending" awakening is something similar to what many kids do with their parents, except reversed.

Bumi was trying to give his dragonfly bunny spirit a personal gift, like a kid wants praise from their parent, and the dragonfly bunny spirit is literally named Bum-Ju^{Bumi-Junior but a shortened personal nickname.} Oedipus Conflict everywhere with the Aang family. Bumi literally joined the military for he thought it would make Aang proud of him.

[Pex]

So now an Air Bender becomes the Villain. Just saw the first episode of Book 3 at this point, but in terms of concept Korra continues to answer my question in my Avatar thread. I'm liking this. Fire doesn't have to be the Bad Guy.

[Razade]

So now an Air Bender becomes the Villain. Just saw the first episode of Book 3 at this point, but in terms of concept Korra continues to answer my question in my Avatar thread. I'm liking this. Fire doesn't have to be the Bad Guy.

Korra's pretty good in showing how other Bending Nations might actually go overboard. The first season is an anti-bender sentiment. Second has a Water Bender big bad. Third has an Air Bender big bad and the final season has an Earth Bender as the big bad.

[LibraryOgre]

Watching Zaheer move through the gates in training at Air Bender Island, I loved how they showed he did it well, but in an entirely differently style than you see from Tenzin or Aang.

ETA: A problem I saw during the "You can't bend platinum" thing that came up a couple times in Season 3: No, I cannot bend platinum. However, I CAN bend steel, and put this steel rod in the links of this chain, and rip the chain open with the steel, which is much, much harder than platinum.

Sure, I need a piece of steel to do it, but those platinum chains aren't staying on for long if I've got a bit of scrap.

ETA, Part 2: Thinking about the order of seasons (now that I've gotten to Season 4), consider that each season deals with a different type of imbalance... and they work in couplets. Season 1 is about rejecting the spirits and their gifts; Season 2 is about embracing them to the detriment of humanity... and extreme overreaction to the problem of Season 1. Season 3 is about anarchy; season 4 is about totalitarianism, in reaction to the events of Season 3.

[uncool]

Korra's pretty good in showing how other Bending Nations might actually go overboard. The first season is an anti-bender sentiment. Second has a Water Bender big bad. Third has an Air Bender big bad and the final season has an Earth Bender as the big bad.

This touches on one of the places where I have problems with Korra, so I'd like to invite discussion: what about Zaheer makes him an airbender villain, besides the plain fact that he is an airbender? How does being an airbender inform Zaheer's moment-to-moment thinking and overall philosophy - and how does that relate to him going overboard?

[Razade]

This touches on one of the places where I have problems with Korra, so I'd like to invite discussion: what about Zaheer makes him an airbender villain, besides the plain fact that he is an airbender? How does being an airbender inform Zaheer's moment-to-moment thinking and overall philosophy - and how does that relate to him going overboard?

The Airbenders as shown in the first series seem the most concerned with monastic introspection. So much so that they don't have any lands of their own, instead only one of several temples far removed from the rest of the world. They were so removed that the Fire Nation took them out without any real effort from what we're shown. No other nation stepped in to stop them and while we see a ton taken out by a singular monk, we're not told how many were fought off before they took the other Air Temples out. Zaheer takes this concept of freedom from the world beyond to the extreme, feeling that everyone should be as free as him. A lot of it gets into real world religion but Zaheer is a distinctly Air Bender villain because of how radical and esoteric his desires are. He doesn't want land or power or control. He wants to break the chains he sees everyone else is bound by. Whether they agree or not. That's not something a Fire or Earth or Water Bending Villain would carry with them.

[dancrilis]

They were so removed that the Fire Nation took them out without any real effort from what we're shown.

They did that with the power of Sozin's comet to memory - so the exact same plan they had with the earth kingdom (and as mentioned it was a stupid plan although more justified for the air nomads).

That's not something a Fire or Earth or Water Bending Villain would carry with them.

Fire is fairly free - I think it could do it, they also have their own monks.

[Lord Raziere]

The Airbenders as shown in the first series seem the most concerned with monastic introspection. So much so that they don't have any lands of their own, instead only one of several temples far removed from the rest of the world. They were so removed that the Fire Nation took them out without any real effort from what we're shown. No other nation stepped in to stop them and while we see a ton taken out by a singular monk, we're not told how many were fought off before they took the other Air Temples out. Zaheer takes this concept of freedom from the world beyond to the extreme, feeling that everyone should be as free as him. A lot of it gets into real world religion but Zaheer is a distinctly Air Bender villain because of how radical and esoteric his desires are. He doesn't want land or power or control. He wants to break the chains he sees everyone else is bound by. Whether they agree or not. That's not something a Fire or Earth or Water Bending Villain would carry with them.

Exactly.

Zaheer is an Airbender villain precisely because he takes this extreme philosophical position that no one more grounded could possibly believe in. Honestly I'm not sure how I could put it better, because entire point is that its a pie-in-the-sky endeavor.

Like, similar goals for an airbender villain in my mind without being a repeat would be like figuring how to pacify the entire world- not a national level, but a personal level so that no one can initiate conflict between even on the smallest of scales, leading to the airbender mindwashing people person by person in an incredibly extreme version of "respecting life"- they themselves wouldn't kill anyone but they would be kidnapping and midnwashing a lot of people to make sure no one is violent ever again, forcing them to not step on bugs or argue.

think of Earth as a metaphor for reality and Air for ideals, and that Zaheer is an example of someone being caught up in ideals. you can say Zaheer's quest doesn't really make sense, but he'd counter that a more "grounded and realistic" pursuit like say, making money doesn't make sense because it never ends: all your doing is earning money to earn more money thus to him all your doing is binding yourself to suffer earning money forever, as either you only make enough to to get by or you profit and start getting greedy and thus consume things out of control until it destroys you.

Zaheer trying to do something like gain an empire or land? whats the point, all empires fade and die eventually, might as well not bother. go for wealth? Why, just to make a number go up using shiny metals that people trick themselves into thinking is valuable? the entire point is to be minimalist: the Air Nomad idea of perfection is something akin to shedding anything that weighs you down, to get rid of anything overdesigned, elaborate, over-consumptive, perfection is not you add but what is left when you take anything unneeded away.

Zaheer just thinks that people don't need governments- and even if you did convinced him that they are, he'd argue that the government that rules best is the one that rules least. Its having an incredible amount of faith in human nature to figure out how to solve things themselves, but if he didn't....he wouldn't believably be what he is. Not all evil villains are cynical power grabbing egomaniacs who think only THEY can rule this or that because they are that awesome. (which arguably both Ozai and Kuvira fall into at the very least, and what many villains boil down to throughout much of fiction, no matter how well-intentioned.)

[dancrilis]

Exactly.
but he'd counter that a more "grounded and realistic" pursuit like say, making money doesn't make sense because it never ends

Making money helps you continue to employ the people that helped you make money - which is good for your mental well being (it also helps you and your family and customers who buy your stuff of their own free will).

Zaheer trying to do something like gain an empire or land? whats the point, all empires fade and die eventually

Yes in a septillion years (likely less) we are all less then dust but it matters in the more immediate, what matters in a persons life is not what matters in eternity otherwise he would never have bothered breaking out of prison.

he'd argue that the government that rules best is the one that rules least.

As would lots of people but that is vastly different then arguing for anarchy.

Its having an incredible amount of faith in human nature to figure out how to solve things themselves, but if he didn't....he wouldn't believably be what he is.

But he didn't - if he had he would have left the avatar alone.
Maybe you could argue that he had faith that the weak would want freedom rather then security and even that is a stretch.

[Ramza00]

Yes in a septillion years (likely less) we are all less then dust but it matters in the more immediate, what matters in a persons life is not what matters in eternity otherwise he would never have bothered breaking out of prison.

So Zaheer would argue for Anarchy for other reasons besides "time scales" all of this is dust...

But let's backtrack this with the Couplet theory brought up earlier. This was the struggle of Wan, Vaatu, and Raava, does this reality matter, or is it only enternal outcomes that matter in the fullness of time?

Wan taught Raava that "sentiment" itself matters besides protecting people of the here and now, Raava was transformed by the experience and she remembers via memory more than the struggle between her and Vaatu. Vaatu in Sanskrit means Silence while Raava means Sound. Well via bonding with Wan prior to Harmonic Convergence their cooperation turn Raava's light / sound into music.

-----

Backtracking to Zaheer, Zaheer believes in Anarchy for he believes in freedom and it is the birthright of all people to be able to play their own music of their own volitiation and not do so merely for it pleases another due to hierarchy (what family you were born into.)

[LaZodiac]

Making money helps you continue to employ the people that helped you make money - which is good for your mental well being (it also helps you and your family and customers who buy your stuff of their own free will).


Yes in a septillion years (likely less) we are all less then dust but it matters in the more immediate, what matters in a persons life is not what matters in eternity otherwise he would never have bothered breaking out of prison.


As would lots of people but that is vastly different then arguing for anarchy.


But he didn't - if he had he would have left the avatar alone.
Maybe you could argue that he had faith that the weak would want freedom rather then security and even that is a stretch.

Money doesn't work like that.

Empires won't turn to dust until we shatter them to pieces.

No government to rule at all would be a government that rules least. You cannot get less than "doesn't exist".

The strong gravitate towards the weak, and end up ruling them by their nature. It is better for everyone to remove the Avatar, now.

That is how Zaheer thinks. That is how it is presented in the show.

[Lord Raziere]

Money doesn't work like that.

Empires won't turn to dust until we shatter them to pieces.

No government to rule at all would be a government that rules least. You cannot get less than "doesn't exist".

The strong gravitate towards the weak, and end up ruling them by their nature. It is better for everyone to remove the Avatar, now.

That is how Zaheer thinks. That is how it is presented in the show.

Yeah, and even if money did work that way, its not really about How Things Really Work anyways. its about how Zaheer sees things working, and what he values, not what the viewer values. If he complied completely with what the viewers valued, he wouldn't really be much of a villain at all. complying with our values means he would be a hero after all, and not do anything that would go against what we believe.

He doesn't value governments, rules or things tying people down, end of story. Any Zaheer-based villainy that doesn't follow from this base assumption is a non-starter. and I wouldn't change anything about him being a villain or him being representative of airbender villainy.

but lets try and find a few quotes from Zaheer to see what he really believes as I have not heard him in a long time:

Spoiler

Show

"When you base your expectations only on what you see, you blind yourself to the possibilities of a new reality."

"The idea of having nations and governments, is as foolish as keeping the human and spirit realms separate. You've had to deal with a moronic president, and a tyrannical Queen. Don't you think the world would be better off... if leaders like them were eliminated?"

It wasn't too long ago, that the Airbenders were nearly all wiped out, thanks to the Fire Lord's desire for world dominance. True freedom can only be achieved when oppressive governments are torn down.

"The natural order, is disorder. Do you know who once said, "New growth cannot exist, without first the destruction of the old?"

"Like all great children's tales, it contains truth within the myth. Laghima once wrote, "Instinct is a lie, told by a fearful body, hoping to be wrong.""

Guard: How?! You're not a bender!
Zaheer: Nature is constantly changing. Like the Wind.

"We are what the White Lotus was meant to be... but after the Hundred Year War, the White Lotus lost its true purpose. Its members came out of hiding, and openly served the Avatar. They became nothing but glorified bodyguards, who served corrupt nations. So a great man named Xai Bao broke from the White Lotus, and began his own society."

"You think that freedom is something you can give or take, on a whim. But to your people, freedom is just as essential as... air. And without it... there is no life. There is only... darkness."

He is all about change. His view is not only that things should change- things are always changing. that looking too much what is in front of you blinds yourself to things that are more, and that freedom is as essential as air and that every new thing requires some old thing to go. these assumptions by themselves aren't that unreasonable as nothing stays the same, holding yourself to patterns keeps your from breaking those patterns to form something better, and too much restraint is basically a slow death.

He sees the White Lotus as having lost its purpose, and serving corrupt nations (which is not unfounded, between Varrick, Tarrlok, Earth Queen and so on, its pretty clear that the rulers and people in power in this era are full of flaws, and the best ruler on display is that one foppish earth prince who decided to give up ruling so democratic elections would take place), he uses the words of a long dead airbender guru Laghima, who lets face it, was probably was observing a forest fire burn down a forest and plant new seeds in the process when they said that, so you see where that probably came from.

he is essentially the kind of guy who looks at things as being Disorderly And Thats Okay. If you value things being orderly, you probably will never get that, but thats what he is about.

[Ramza00]

Change of subject that I will definitely regret.

But in my mind Zaheer's plan was better than MCU's Marvel Movies Thanos plan. It also felt he actually believed this stuff in a way Thanos did not.

Does anyone here want to make the opposite case where Thanos was a more effective villain characterizing that specific of his character in which he is a villian?

[LaZodiac]

Change of subject that I will definitely regret.

But in my mind Zaheer's plan was better than MCU's Marvel Movies Thanos plan. It also felt he actually believed this stuff in a way Thanos did not.

Does anyone here want to make the opposite case where Thanos was a more effective villain characterizing that specific of his character in which he is a villian?

Zaheer is infinitely better than Thanos because, among other things, the problem Thanos sees does not exist. Unlike Zaheer who is CORRECT, but morally dubious, Thanos is just a ****ing idiot.

[Lord Raziere]

Zaheer is infinitely better than Thanos because, among other things, the problem Thanos sees does not exist. Unlike Zaheer who is CORRECT, but morally dubious, Thanos is just a ****ing idiot.

Zaheer Vs. Thanos: Debate Battle!
Thanos: I'm going to kill 50% of the universe to maintain balance with the Infinity Gauntlet
Zaheer: that is not how the natural balance of the world works. the natural balance is disorder, and your are imposing an unnatural order by using an artificial extinction method, when extinction should come about naturally as a result of the processes of survival and every living being free to choose what happens of their own free will. As expected from a foolish authority figure you try to control too much, and what if that 50% is all one gender? then that just leads to everything going extinct and thus 100% death. Your oppression of life will thus only lead to everything dying, clearly I should kill you then use the Infinity Gauntlet to snap all authority figures out of existence to save everyone from you and all other tyrants.

ZAHEER WINS!

PHILOSOPHY!

[Razade]

They did that with the power of Sozin's comet to memory - so the exact same plan they had with the earth kingdom (and as mentioned it was a stupid plan although more justified for the air nomads).

I don't remember and it doesn't change anything in any meaningful way even if it's the case. The comet wouldn't have won them the Earth Kingdom without the stuff Azula did. It has no baring on the other stuff.

Fire is fairly free - I think it could do it, they also have their own monks.

Having monks isn't the same as having the same philosophy as the Air Nomads or the motivations Zaheer espouses which is all that I was discussing.

[Rater202]

So, this isn't the place to discuss Thanos in MCU... (honestly, I figure "he's insane and wants to bone the Grim Reaper" was still a good enough reason to kill half the universe in the comics) but I did see this at the end of last month and I think it sums up everything wrong with MCU Thanos nicely.


In case that's too small for you to read:

"Ahhh, Perry the Platypus! Behold: the INFINITY GAUNTLET!.... Inator. With one snap of my fingers as I collect the sixth stone, I will have infinite power; enough to.... create more resources for the entire planet! They will WORSHIP me as a hero, and I will take over the ENTIRE TRI STATE AREA!"

"What? Kill half of all people? What kind of crazy person would do that?"

If you've got reality-warping powers sufficient to completely redefine the laws of physics and the like, and your goal is to prevent scarcity... You can just make more resources. Take pollutants out of the air and water and turn them back into the original resources. Make people need less food and water: Or No food and water.

If you absolutely have to kill half of everyone, instead of doing it randomly you'd be setting qualifiers and prioritizing some people over others: Ignoring morality and ethics, the obvious thing to do is exempt people who produce and distribute resources while making sure to kill off people who hoard resources or consume them in great excess of their needs before even thinking about anyone else. Randomly killing half of all populations just means that the exact same problems persist but with fewer people whose job is to try and make the systems work, causing the bad kind of anarchy as the survivors panic and riot.

In comparison, the only thing objectively wrong about Zaheer's plan is that he was going from 0 to 100 in no time flat and was planning to force it on people. Theoretically, his plans could have worked if he'd been less of a jackass about it.

[dancrilis]

Making money helps you continue to employ the people that helped you make money - which is good for your mental well being (it also helps you and your family and customers who buy your stuff of their own free will).

Money doesn't work like that.

How do you think money works - or more correctly in which ways does money not work like that?

[LibraryOgre]

This touches on one of the places where I have problems with Korra, so I'd like to invite discussion: what about Zaheer makes him an airbender villain, besides the plain fact that he is an airbender? How does being an airbender inform Zaheer's moment-to-moment thinking and overall philosophy - and how does that relate to him going overboard?

There is a difference between an airbender and an air nomad, as that season make abundantly clear, and an idea that I think plays well into my observation above... he goes through the gates lesson like a pro, but in a way entirely different than what Tenzin taught. Tenzin's method was flowing and patiently... you were a leaf, floating through the gates and letting them take you to where you wanted to go. Zaheer's method was not that... it was a driving zig-zag, avoiding obstacles, yes, but reliant more on directness than flow. Watch it again; it is visually very different.

The air nomad philosophy was one of evasion... you let go of the world so it does not influence you, but you also try not to influence it. Zaheer's philosophy was one of rising above the world so you could see its pattern, then reach down and influence that pattern... or scatter the one that was there and start anew. I think Zaheer's approach was limited, partially because he did not consider the cultures of others... he'd risen so far above the world that he could not see details... and the effects that would have on the pattern. He did not see how the earth shaped the wind, because his view was flattened by altitude... which is part of what let him fly.

[GloatingSwine]

If you've got reality-warping powers sufficient to completely redefine the laws of physics and the like, and your goal is to prevent scarcity... You can just make more resources. Take pollutants out of the air and water and turn them back into the original resources. Make people need less food and water: Or No food and water.

Yep.

But if you've spent the last couple of thousand years stewing in bitterness that they didn't listen to you and you're determined to prove that you were Right All Along, that's a different matter...

[LibraryOgre]

Since I finished it last week:

I liked Korra more on the second viewing. Mind you, I liked it on the first, years ago, but it felt more disjointed, then, but felt smoother this trip through.

I saw some interesting paralells in the seasons... as others have mentioned, your enemies were ostensibly non-benders, water tribe, an air bender, and the Earth Empire, rounding things out from Aang's fire nation enemies.

Beyond that, though, their philosophies were, essentially, the rejection of the spirit and its powers, then over-reliance on spirituality. Then you had anarchy followed by totalitarianism. In both couplets, you had the ones espousing their views get their chance to talk, but the Avatar pushing things more towards balance... but not necessarily the status quo.

Amon's rebellion lead to a reorganization of Republic City, giving non-benders a bigger voice. Unalak lead to the opening of spirit portals, and the reunification (at least in spirit) of the water tribes. Zaheer's anarchy led to the totalitarism of Kuvira, which led to the dissolution of the Earth Kingdom into what one hopes will be the Earth Republic.

[Peelee]

Since I finished it last week:

I liked Korra more on the second viewing. Mind you, I liked it on the first, years ago, but it felt more disjointed, then, but felt smoother this trip through.

I saw some interesting paralells in the seasons... as others have mentioned, your enemies were ostensibly non-benders, water tribe, an air bender, and the Earth Empire, rounding things out from Aang's fire nation enemies.

Beyond that, though, their philosophies were, essentially, the rejection of the spirit and its powers, then over-reliance on spirituality. Then you had anarchy followed by totalitarianism. In both couplets, you had the ones espousing their views get their chance to talk, but the Avatar pushing things more towards balance... but not necessarily the status quo.

Amon's rebellion lead to a reorganization of Republic City, giving non-benders a bigger voice. Unalak lead to the opening of spirit portals, and the reunification (at least in spirit) of the water tribes. Zaheer's anarchy led to the totalitarism of Kuvira, which led to the dissolution of the Earth Kingdom into what one hopes will be the Earth Republic.

Well, at least until the Earth Republic reforms into the Earth Empire, whole the emperor keeps the Earth Imperial Senate (at least until the construction of a new suoerweapon, which will allow regional governors to maintain direct control without the bureaucracy).

[LibraryOgre]

Well, at least until the Earth Republic reforms into the Earth Empire, whole the emperor keeps the Earth Imperial Senate (at least until the construction of a new suoerweapon, which will allow regional governors to maintain direct control without the bureaucracy).

They already did the spirit-weapon plotline, man. They mounted it on a mecha.

[Peelee]

They already did the spirit-weapon plotline, man. They mounted it on a mecha.

Look, once season 2 ended in lasers, becoming Star Wars was a foregone conclusion.

I can feel your anger. Good! Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. The series is defenseless. Let Netflix strike it down, and your journey to the Star Wars shall be complete!

[dancrilis]

Well, at least until the Earth Republic reforms into the Earth Empire, whole the emperor keeps the Earth Imperial Senate (at least until the construction of a new suoerweapon, which will allow regional governors to maintain direct control without the bureaucracy).

And since the bureaucracy will likely be vastly expansive and do nothing but limit what normal people can do in their own lives, the empire will likely be met with thunderous applause.

[Ramza00]

Look, once season 2 ended in lasers, becoming Star Wars was a foregone conclusion.

I can feel your anger. Good! Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. The series is defenseless. Let Netflix strike it down, and your journey to the Star Wars shall be complete!

General Iroh with the bombing planes at Season 1 is Star Wars Speeder Bikes / Car Chase scene.

[LibraryOgre]

Look, once season 2 ended in lasers, becoming Star Wars was a foregone conclusion.

I can feel your anger. Good! Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. The series is defenseless. Let Netflix strike it down, and your journey to the Star Wars shall be complete!

... I went from Korra to Clone Wars... which I have watched before...

[Peelee]

... I went from Korra to Clone Wars... which I have watched before...

Spoiler

Show

[Ajustusdaniel]

Yep.

But if you've spent the last couple of thousand years stewing in bitterness that they didn't listen to you and you're determined to prove that you were Right All Along, that's a different matter...

I think this is it in a nutshell- Thanos isn't acting rationally, he's reacting out of trauma to the death of his world, and trying to apply the solution that he thought would work in those specific circumstances (also doubtful, but hey, he never got a chance to see it fail) to the universe as a whole.

[Pex]

Finished Book Three. Feeling sorry for Mako. It appears to me he got demoted to a glorified extra. He has good ideas, but he mostly reacts and gets a line to remind everyone he's there. However, I do give him credit for being supportive of his brother. Still on Team Bolin.

I have to agree with others who say Book Three is better than the first two if only by how I watched the season. With the first two seasons by Episode 8 or so I would check to see how many episodes were left. I was enjoying them, but I wanted to know how much longer until the finale. With Book 3 I didn't do that. As a major confrontation was taking place with the Red Lotus it felt epic, like it was the final battle. It was then I realized I hadn't checked how much longer the season was, and I verified it was the last episode of the season and this was the finale. Book 3 was enough more entertaining than the previous two to not wonder when it was over. I think it is because of Zaheer. He was the villain, but he wasn't lusting for power. I won't say he was Correct, but he had a point. He was interesting. I was rooting against him for what he did, not why he did it. His friends I didn't like at all. They were one dimensional. I did not get the impression they were so gung ho on Zaheer's philisophy. They only wanted to rampage.