Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

[halfeye]

Count the number of orbs in use on what i responded to. There isnt a free hand for force shield when Flight and Light Hook are in use.

Oh, right. Definitely designed for a four or more handed species, maybe cephalopods?

[Dragonus45]

We likely can. By all account she hit him with a full power punch. If that didnt take his head off she isnt going to be strong enough for what you suggest.

By your account she did, certainly not the account of the comic which doesn't suggest at all she was aiming for a lethal blow at that moment.

What he actually said was Max was willing to escalate to quickly. And to aim to main.
We have seen Max try and fail to dust Vehemence at peak power. Thats how she got caught.
Vehemence is to fast at peak. And Hand of Dust is sadly a touch range move.

I am curious, when did Vehemence survive an attack from Max with intent to kill or "dust" him as you described? (and removing an entire space ship shield and all certainly wasn't touch range either.)

[The Glyphstone]

So entirely aside from whether Vehemence could beat Max or not, again - how badly would he want to escape here? Obviously we won't find out for sure until we reach the end of this particular scene 2 months from now and the fighting stops, but assuming his living conditions are decent, how much is he going to crave freedom against the utility of a steady supply of 'Vitamin V' that comes in the delicious candy-coated form of supers who can actually challenge him in a fight, as well as never having to look over his shoulder for Maxima setting up a oneshot sneak attack?

[lord_khaine]

By your account she did, certainly not the account of the comic which doesn't suggest at all she was aiming for a lethal blow at that moment.

By account of the comic, who LITTEREALLY showed Max boost her strenght, then deliver a blot to a lethal spot.
If Max was going to hold back she would not have any reason to dump everything into strenght. She had plenty of other atributes.

I am curious, when did Vehemence survive an attack from Max with intent to kill or "dust" him as you described? (and removing an entire space ship shield and all certainly wasn't touch range either.)

Comic #272, Max had just taken Vehemence's arm. Saying and i quote "surrender and we will get you medical attention, dont and i will take your head"
Vehemence refused, and Max goes in with, and i quote again "Thats it, i warned you".

That was an attack with the intent to take his head according to Max herself.
And it failed. Hence Vehemence survived it.

So entirely aside from whether Vehemence could beat Max or not, again - how badly would he want to escape here? Obviously we won't find out for sure until we reach the end of this particular scene 2 months from now and the fighting stops, but assuming his living conditions are decent, how much is he going to crave freedom against the utility of a steady supply of 'Vitamin V' that comes in the delicious candy-coated form of supers who can actually challenge him in a fight, as well as never having to look over his shoulder for Maxima setting up a oneshot sneak attack?

By all account not at all.
Having to deal with being hunted by Archon is to much of a hazzle. Especially since he need to power up a lot to fight a high tier hero.

[Ibrinar]

Don't forget that they keep him permanently drugged up, he might not be in favor of that state.

[Traab]

He avoided the kill shot by regrowing an arm from scratch instantly and throttling her with it which she had no freaking clue he could do at the time. Now she knows he is capable of instantly regrowing limbs, that are stronger than normal, and that he is physically capable of restraining her to the point of going turtle. So she wouldnt let him grab her again. The punch to his throat was her explicitly following sydneys plan despite not knowing what she was going for. And it was enough to cave in his throat. Yes he could have healed from that given time, but she was still delivering a lethal wound to him despite his absurd amount of leveling up. And could have kept doing so till she either finished him off or he lost more power than he gained. Remember at that point he needed everyone fighting everyone to keep gaining strength. Once he was cut off from that by sydneys shield, he was no longer going to outpace maxima. He NEEDED that 30 person super brawl to continue in order to provide enough power to offset the cost of trying to beat maxima.

[The Glyphstone]

Don't forget that they keep him permanently drugged up, he might not be in favor of that state.

They did, but its entirely possible they've stopped that now that it is literally killing him to be so passive all the time.

[Forum Explorer]

He avoided the kill shot by regrowing an arm from scratch instantly and throttling her with it which she had no freaking clue he could do at the time. Now she knows he is capable of instantly regrowing limbs, that are stronger than normal, and that he is physically capable of restraining her to the point of going turtle. So she wouldnt let him grab her again. The punch to his throat was her explicitly following sydneys plan despite not knowing what she was going for. And it was enough to cave in his throat. Yes he could have healed from that given time, but she was still delivering a lethal wound to him despite his absurd amount of leveling up. And could have kept doing so till she either finished him off or he lost more power than he gained. Remember at that point he needed everyone fighting everyone to keep gaining strength. Once he was cut off from that by sydneys shield, he was no longer going to outpace maxima. He NEEDED that 30 person super brawl to continue in order to provide enough power to offset the cost of trying to beat maxima.

Given time is a deceptive statement. He'd have healed in seconds. Sydney just didn't give him those seconds. And he got stronger from it. Violence, basically any violence makes him stronger. Sydney predicted that even drowning would stop draining him of power if he did things like shrink or turn off his lightning arm.

Honestly, Vehemence could have still won if he had changed his powers up when being grappled. Though I'll put the fact that he didn't via a desire to not actually kill anyone (he didn't even want to kill Maxima, he just thought he had to), plus the confusion of not being able to see while being drowned.

[Traab]

Given time is a deceptive statement. He'd have healed in seconds. Sydney just didn't give him those seconds. And he got stronger from it. Violence, basically any violence makes him stronger. Sydney predicted that even drowning would stop draining him of power if he did things like shrink or turn off his lightning arm.

Honestly, Vehemence could have still won if he had changed his powers up when being grappled. Though I'll put the fact that he didn't via a desire to not actually kill anyone (he didn't even want to kill Maxima, he just thought he had to), plus the confusion of not being able to see while being drowned.

Yeah, if he turned off a half dozen of his power ups he would no longer be losing energy from drowning. He would also no longer be capable of surviving maxima. Everything above base form vehemence costs energy to maintain. He needs larger and larger sources of violence to both keep up his super powers and continue to grow stronger beyond that. When he was being choked out and drowned, he was no longer absorbing enough violence energy to maintain his current level of power. There is a limit to how efficient his power can be. Its not a 1 to 1 conversion where every point of damage he takes is equal to 1 point of healing from violent energy absorbed. Or maybe it is, but he is also spending 1 point of energy on super size, 1 point on electricity, 1 point on durability, 1 point on not being flung into space, etc etc etc. Drowning him was only going to take him to a certain level of power before it stopped effecting him much, but that was enough to make him vulnerable to summary brain ashing. Hence why he gave up when given the chance.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, if he turned off a half dozen of his power ups he would no longer be losing energy from drowning. He would also no longer be capable of surviving maxima. Everything above base form vehemence costs energy to maintain. He needs larger and larger sources of violence to both keep up his super powers and continue to grow stronger beyond that. When he was being choked out and drowned, he was no longer absorbing enough violence energy to maintain his current level of power. There is a limit to how efficient his power can be. Its not a 1 to 1 conversion where every point of damage he takes is equal to 1 point of healing from violent energy absorbed. Or maybe it is, but he is also spending 1 point of energy on super size, 1 point on electricity, 1 point on durability, 1 point on not being flung into space, etc etc etc. Drowning him was only going to take him to a certain level of power before it stopped effecting him much, but that was enough to make him vulnerable to summary brain ashing. Hence why he gave up when given the chance.

Sure, but he could've done a pulse of the violence aura to disrupt the people holding him, or swapped from electricity to fire, or grown even larger, or whatever else you can imagine. Yes, Vehemence was losing power, but he still had a massive amount of power to burn through.

Also we don't know if she was correct, but Sydney predicted that if Vehemence shrank drown, that alone would be enough to put him in the black. That's very much a maybe, but it does make sense. Drowning him may be less violent, but it is still pretty violent.

[Traab]

Sure, but he could've done a pulse of the violence aura to disrupt the people holding him, or swapped from electricity to fire, or grown even larger, or whatever else you can imagine. Yes, Vehemence was losing power, but he still had a massive amount of power to burn through.

Also we don't know if she was correct, but Sydney predicted that if Vehemence shrank drown, that alone would be enough to put him in the black. That's very much a maybe, but it does make sense. Drowning him may be less violent, but it is still pretty violent.

Yes, when your power is literally "Whatever I want it to be and have the energy for" you have a lot of options. Im not quite sure what the point here is. Had he shut down any of his power ups, he would have been vulnerable to instant death by maxima. At his peak he was only able to hold maxima in place, not kill her, and once cut off from everyone else fighting in a free for all brawl he no longer had the power to just keep switching abilities till he found one that would get them off him. And its rather hard to think clearly and plan when you cant breathe, hear, or see and are being drowned with only your dwindling power to keep you alive and ramped up enough to not die instantly.

Heck, had he gotten out of this situation, maxima might very well have kited him till he lost power. With no active combat taking place, and his skills being expensive to maintain and create, he would have had a hard time keeping himself safe from a death beam for very long. Putting everyone but maxima and vehemence under sydneys shield where they are safe from collateral damage and his violence aura and having maxima fight with akido or other softer styles to keep the violence to a minimum, I bet he would have tapped out quick. Sure maybe he would have tried to cause an incident to force maxima to fight back, but the restaurant is already destroyed, the people are under a shield, and he is on the clock knowing that if he gets any weaker, he will die. And he cant just punch himself in the face to maintain his energy levels either.

[Dragonus45]

By account of the comic, who LITTEREALLY showed Max boost her strenght, then deliver a blot to a lethal spot.
If Max was going to hold back she would not have any reason to dump everything into strenght. She had plenty of other atributes.

Ok if you say so, your wrong though. If she wanted him dead she could have vaporized his head, and absolutely nothing is ever made clear that she meant the throat shot to be a lethal blow. Prove. Otherwise.

Comic #272, Max had just taken Vehemence's arm. Saying and i quote "surrender and we will get you medical attention, dont and i will take your head"
Vehemence refused, and Max goes in with, and i quote again "Thats it, i warned you".

That was an attack with the intent to take his head according to Max herself.
And it failed. Hence Vehemence survived it.

It failed because he revealed a surprise power in his regeneration and interrupted her, not because he was able to survive the attack. You really should reread this section or something.

[Forum Explorer]

Yes, when your power is literally "Whatever I want it to be and have the energy for" you have a lot of options. Im not quite sure what the point here is. Had he shut down any of his power ups, he would have been vulnerable to instant death by maxima. At his peak he was only able to hold maxima in place, not kill her, and once cut off from everyone else fighting in a free for all brawl he no longer had the power to just keep switching abilities till he found one that would get them off him. And its rather hard to think clearly and plan when you cant breathe, hear, or see and are being drowned with only your dwindling power to keep you alive and ramped up enough to not die instantly.

Heck, had he gotten out of this situation, maxima might very well have kited him till he lost power. With no active combat taking place, and his skills being expensive to maintain and create, he would have had a hard time keeping himself safe from a death beam for very long. Putting everyone but maxima and vehemence under sydneys shield where they are safe from collateral damage and his violence aura and having maxima fight with akido or other softer styles to keep the violence to a minimum, I bet he would have tapped out quick. Sure maybe he would have tried to cause an incident to force maxima to fight back, but the restaurant is already destroyed, the people are under a shield, and he is on the clock knowing that if he gets any weaker, he will die. And he cant just punch himself in the face to maintain his energy levels either.

My point is that he had a lot of different power ups going, and that he is typically still gets a net gain from being drowned. Also that victory still wasn't guaranteed at that point, it required Vehemence to either hold back, or not think of a solution. Like you mention, him not thinking of a solution is very reasonable, things were pretty chaotic and he was likely in a lot of pain.

I don't think kiting him really works. Yeah, sure Maxima could escape, but that just leaves everyone else vulnerable to Vehemence. He could either take hostages, or absorb even more power until he can pull off even more insane feats. Even if everyone else is under Sydney's shield, he could just go on the highway or something. No shortage of people in the world to harvest violence from. Also I'm pretty sure even 'soft' violence will still have a net gain in power. Though at that stage, I don't think Maxima could beat him by herself anymore.

[Shining Wrath]

Interrupting the discussion of how powerful Vehemence was a few hundred strips back - we see him here today cooperating with Maxima's plan to have people switch off and fight him. I don't think he's stunned by the eagle strike to the head; he's just waiting for the next opponent, politely, because this fight benefits his health as well as giving ArcSwat a work out / training session. Win-win.

ArcSwat has let some "villains" join on a probationary basis. It'd take extreme circumstances, perhaps, but Vehemence might be a future recruit. He was trying to avoid killing anyone when he was captured; he's probably not a sociopath, just a guy who needs violence the way a succubus needs sex.

EDIT:

The fact that he's cooperating, even after lots of vehemic energy absorption, suggests that Vehemence believes that Maxima can take him. Or he's playing the long game - but I think he's acting like a guy who knows he is under control.

[Traab]

Interrupting the discussion of how powerful Vehemence was a few hundred strips back - we see him here today cooperating with Maxima's plan to have people switch off and fight him. I don't think he's stunned by the eagle strike to the head; he's just waiting for the next opponent, politely, because this fight benefits his health as well as giving ArcSwat a work out / training session. Win-win.

ArcSwat has let some "villains" join on a probationary basis. It'd take extreme circumstances, perhaps, but Vehemence might be a future recruit. He was trying to avoid killing anyone when he was captured; he's probably not a sociopath, just a guy who needs violence the way a succubus needs sex.

EDIT:

The fact that he's cooperating, even after lots of vehemic energy absorption, suggests that Vehemence believes that Maxima can take him. Or he's playing the long game - but I think he's acting like a guy who knows he is under control.

Yeah, he isnt likely to do anything stupid. He basically threw the whole super brawl together for no long term goal other than "Now that supers are out in the open, i wonder how powerful i could get off a super brawl instead of my normal stuff?" He didnt want to rule the world, or slaughter people, or anything like that. He just wanted to see how powerful he could theoretically get then leave. It was the vehemic equivalent of a succubus going, "Wait, there isnt an upper limit to how big an orgy can be, right? How much energy could I absorb if I turned wembley stadium into one big boink fest?" So yeah, if they are willing to supply him with violence on a regular basis, he is probably just fine with the situation as is. Room and board, and plenty of super fighting for fun and fuel.

Incidentally, thats why I dont think he would have gone for attacking random bystanders against maxima. He isnt a killer by inclination, and I honestly think had they separated him from his super snacks, he would have quickly surrendered knowing what the other option would be. He needed that super brawl to continue to get strong enough to handle maxima, and if that stopped, he would know he was done. Maybe try a time or two to restart things but after that? White flag time. Or maybe some random escape power he could create.

[Shining Wrath]

Yeah, he isnt likely to do anything stupid. He basically threw the whole super brawl together for no long term goal other than "Now that supers are out in the open, i wonder how powerful i could get off a super brawl instead of my normal stuff?" He didnt want to rule the world, or slaughter people, or anything like that. He just wanted to see how powerful he could theoretically get then leave. It was the vehemic equivalent of a succubus going, "Wait, there isnt an upper limit to how big an orgy can be, right? How much energy could I absorb if I turned wembley stadium into one big boink fest?" So yeah, if they are willing to supply him with violence on a regular basis, he is probably just fine with the situation as is. Room and board, and plenty of super fighting for fun and fuel.

Incidentally, thats why I dont think he would have gone for attacking random bystanders against maxima. He isnt a killer by inclination, and I honestly think had they separated him from his super snacks, he would have quickly surrendered knowing what the other option would be. He needed that super brawl to continue to get strong enough to handle maxima, and if that stopped, he would know he was done. Maybe try a time or two to restart things but after that? White flag time. Or maybe some random escape power he could create.

I would not be surprised if he could manifest a "dig tunnel at super speed" power. In fact, if Dave wants him to try to escape on his own (unlikely), that's a way - just run right at a cliff face and tear into it like an Ent assaulting Isengard. When you've got a random collection of powers because Plot, you can have even more random powers.

BTW, do NOT give Dabbler ideas. That Wembley stadium thing could be a super-spreader for STD and COVID, too.

I'm not sure what Vehemence's long game plans were once he demonstrated the ability to take on ArcSwat single handed. Possibly start riots and break into jewelry stores and banks; who knows?

[The Glyphstone]

The only ambition he expressed was to visit Brazil and 'take in a soccer riot'. That gives more of a feel of violence tourism, rather than common criminal, just traveling the world to its most violent/wartorn places and basking in the snack food.

[Dragonus45]

For all the speculation about Vehemence's ability to make new powers up the comic seemed to imply, and Dave said outright in the text below a few strips of the comic, that the costs for them could get fairly obscene any time he isn't taking in a massive super powered brawl. I doubt he can whip up a big escape short notice here.

[Traab]

For all the speculation about Vehemence's ability to make new powers up the comic seemed to imply, and Dave said outright in the text below a few strips of the comic, that the costs for them could get fairly obscene any time he isn't taking in a massive super powered brawl. I doubt he can whip up a big escape short notice here.

Yeah I was thinking some sort of teleport that drained his power to get some nonspecific distance away rather than trying to imitate a horta and hoof it.

[Dragonus45]

Yeah I was thinking some sort of teleport that drained his power to get some nonspecific distance away rather than trying to imitate a horta and hoof it.

I wonder if that would be available to him though, he had a wide variety of tricks once he powered up but he seemed to lack general mobility. Such as when he chose to stick himself to the ground rather then fly when Max tried to put him into orbit. It makes me wonder what the general scope of his ability to brute force vehemic energy is or if perhaps mobility powers are costly enough that even when seriously powered up they don't become too costly. Teleportation especially seems unlikely.

[Forum Explorer]

I wonder if that would be available to him though, he had a wide variety of tricks once he powered up but he seemed to lack general mobility. Such as when he chose to stick himself to the ground rather then fly when Max tried to put him into orbit. It makes me wonder what the general scope of his ability to brute force vehemic energy is or if perhaps mobility powers are costly enough that even when seriously powered up they don't become too costly. Teleportation especially seems unlikely.

Maybe not teleportation, but I bet he could launch himself extremely far.

That and he's shown some level of body modification. Sprouting wings isn't too far of a stretch.

[Shining Wrath]

Vehemence is a brawler, and his powers are generally those found in that archetype. He can regenerate, resist being thrown around, absorb a lot of damage (literally; he turns it into energy), and punch / grapple with power. Giving him teleportation / wings would "go against type". It might happen, but it'd be akin to putting wings on Wolverine.

Yes, Thor can brawl and fly. Thor is also a god. Don't distract me.

Anyway, I think he's enjoying himself, which is a sort of masochism. But he's also cooperating. I repeat; he acts as though he believes ArcSwat is in control.

[Traab]

Maybe not teleportation, but I bet he could launch himself extremely far.

That and he's shown some level of body modification. Sprouting wings isn't too far of a stretch.

Neither would let him escape from maxima though. She is many many times supersonic at will. Literally his only option is to either cause a major distraction, like with sciona and the bridge, or to teleport/portal somewhere far away.

[lord_khaine]

Honestly, the role as Archons caged monster might also appeal to Vehemence's vanity.
As it is, he is basically their measuring stick for bruisers "how long can you beat on Vehemence before he grow to strong?"

[Shining Wrath]

Honestly, the role as Archons caged monster might also appeal to Vehemence's vanity.
As it is, he is basically their measuring stick for bruisers "how long can you beat on Vehemence before he grow to strong?"

Today's author commentary says that he's enjoying this, and that he doesn't care if he's the puncher or the punchee, it's all the same to him. That sounds vaguely sadomasochistic to me, but then, he needs vitamin "V" to survive, so, no judgement. But that does mean that yes, I think he's fine with being the measuring stick, and he is bright enough to know that a guy with a violence inducing aura probably shouldn't be running around in a society full of concealed carry licenses and MMA-wannabes. Not political, just noting that there's short fuses out there, some of whom carry weapons and / or practice fighting. Imagine Vehemence being a good citizen and going to a town council meeting, and they're discussing Hot Topic of the day. Without trying or wanting to, Vehemence sends the entire audience into a frenzy. Not so good.

[The Glyphstone]

Is his aura something passive or constant he can't control? That would indeed make it very hard to actually participate in society, but it seemed previously like something he could turn on or off.

[Shining Wrath]

Is his aura something passive or constant he can't control? That would indeed make it very hard to actually participate in society, but it seemed previously like something he could turn on or off.

Hmmm. I *thought* it was always on, but if it's voluntary he could be a member of society.

[Lapak]

Hmmm. I *thought* it was always on, but if it's voluntary he could be a member of society.

It seems clear that it's voluntary - the villains weren't fighting each other (nor were the bystanders or the heroes) until he turned it on.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah. Seemed pretty clear the aura was a power he actively engaged.
Because he needed more violence in the area to overcome Max's invulnerability.

[Traab]

He DID seem to have an effect on the supers he brought though. Assuming we can trust the debriefing the bad guys had they felt like it would be rude to not agree to go with him. It seems like he has a subtle mind control effect he can use on people for fairly cheap as this was all done pre violence. Seriously, the harder we think about vehemence the more his power comes around to author fiat. He can do literally whatever the author wants him to do and stop trying to figure him out as it varies depending on what dave wants him to do or be capable of at this point in time.