Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

[Keltest]

The beginning of this comic does seem to imply that she might not have actually found the orbs in Florida.

While it could be read that way, in context i think thats Sydney just being uncomfortable being the center of attention and talking about herself.

You know, like a normal person.

[Max_Killjoy]

While it could be read that way, in context i think thats Sydney just being uncomfortable being the center of attention and talking about herself.

You know, like a normal person.

That's how I read it.

Plus just being intensely nervous at suddenly sharing this thing that was a huge secret, with a room full of people, that she barely knows.

[The Glyphstone]

The site commenters are suggesting that the secret isn't where the orbs were found, but the look on Mom's face indicating that she wasn't aware of this vacation to Florida that Sydney and Dad took. Lying to something as mundane and unimportant as the federal government is small potatoes compared to accidentally admitting you lied to your mother, right in front of her.

[Shining Wrath]

The beginning of this comic does seem to imply that she might not have actually found the orbs in Florida.

That "uh" might be significant, or not. We'll find out Thursday.

The site commenters are suggesting that the secret isn't where the orbs were found, but the look on Mom's face indicating that she wasn't aware of this vacation to Florida that Sydney and Dad took. Lying to something as mundane and unimportant as the federal government is small potatoes compared to accidentally admitting you lied to your mother, right in front of her.

I don't think that wouldn't put Maxima into full steely-eyed glare mode. She wouldn't approve, but it wouldn't really be her business. It is possible that the Sydneys didn't tell Mom she was learning to scuba dive, because Moms worry. However, I'm guessing that Dad just blurted out something more significant.

[KillianHawkeye]

Anyone think maybe we should wait for the conclusion of the scene instead of the mid-punchline pause to be unhappy? I mean, I know that's crazy talk but the last 20 times or so it didn't turn out as bad as we imagined.

What? You, sir, are either a genius or a madman!

[lord_khaine]

That.. was a nice twist..

[Sean Mirrsen]

It's several levels of nice, and several levels of twist.

So, what exactly did kill the dinosaurs?

[Traab]

Yeah that counts as an oopsie. Luckily it only matters if word gets out and even then arguments could be made about ownership. After all, where did the geode maximas super juice came from get dug up? Was it a local pile of rocks, rocks shipped from elsewhere because geode rocks are common as dirt and shipped in bulk for stuff like that? And considering the mystery nature of her orbs and the fact that they werent found till now, it could be a green lantern ring sort of thing where they sought her out and chose her or were sent to her by the mystery ultra advanced (even for aliens) race. And they would have no way to prove otherwise. And ok, that works to cover up the imagined plot hole, as i thought, she lied about where she found them. Chances are good arclight DID inf act inspect the keys looking to see if they could find anything of itnerest and when they didnt they shrugged and left it at that. Then her quick attempt to shut her dad up about her scuba trip aroused everyones suspicion.

[Radar]

Yeah that counts as an oopsie. Luckily it only matters if word gets out and even then arguments could be made about ownership. (...)

And with as big of an oopsie, she pretty much cannot be punished and the actual location, where Sydney found the orbs has to be kept extra hidden in order to avoid serious diplomatic problems. It is exactly as with debt: if you owe someone 1000 dollars, they have power over you. If you owe someone 1000 000 dollars you have power over them.

[Max_Killjoy]

It's several levels of nice, and several levels of twist.

So, what exactly did kill the dinosaurs?

Indeed, that is almost at the same point as the center of Chicxulub crater.

[Dragonus45]

The flow of the last page makes so much more sense now as well. Dave continuing to keep these last few pages going strong.

[Traab]

Now I do wonder, honestly, how ownership rights go here. Obviously they werent created by locals off the yucatan peninsula, so they cant proclaim it is their property. And since somebody made them, that means they may have an original owner kicking about, which may mess up the salvage claims of either sydney OR whichever nation has claim over the precise spot of the reef. After all, there have been plenty of stories about artifacts being returned to even the descendants of their previous owners after having been taken or lost. The fact the orbs have bonded with sydney and cant be left behind also creates its own legal quagmire. For all we know its like a transplanted organ, no, you cant take it back, even if you were the original donator.

[tyckspoon]

Now I do wonder, honestly, how ownership rights go here. Obviously they werent created by locals off the yucatan peninsula, so they cant proclaim it is their property. And since somebody made them, that means they may have an original owner kicking about, which may mess up the salvage claims of either sydney OR whichever nation has claim over the precise spot of the reef. After all, there have been plenty of stories about artifacts being returned to even the descendants of their previous owners after having been taken or lost. The fact the orbs have bonded with sydney and cant be left behind also creates its own legal quagmire. For all we know its like a transplanted organ, no, you cant take it back, even if you were the original donator.

So prior history would suggest Dave is either going to ignore this or waaaaaaay over-think it and spend far too many comics trying to justify it, but I think it's interesting that the term 'salvage' kind of implies that they were recovered from something - you don't generally call it salvage when you just find something. It's for items that were recovered from a situation where the original owner was incapable of getting them or waived their rights to them.. so if we take the proposition that the orbs are Nth tech, it's possible there is other Nth wreckage or remains in that area. Which even being (presumably) non-functional and not as indestructible as the orbs themselves would be of massive scientific interest. And would definitely justify keeping the exact area a secret, even more than the 'I found these in a foreign nation's waters and that government may wish to make a fuss about that.'

[Traab]

So prior history would suggest Dave is either going to ignore this or waaaaaaay over-think it and spend far too many comics trying to justify it, but I think it's interesting that the term 'salvage' kind of implies that they were recovered from something - you don't generally call it salvage when you just find something. It's for items that were recovered from a situation where the original owner was incapable of getting them or waived their rights to them.. so if we take the proposition that the orbs are Nth tech, it's possible there is other Nth wreckage or remains in that area. Which even being (presumably) non-functional and not as indestructible as the orbs themselves would be of massive scientific interest. And would definitely justify keeping the exact area a secret, even more than the 'I found these in a foreign nation's waters and that government may wish to make a fuss about that.'

Yeah the possibility of there being more stuff there cant be ignored, I figured she called it salvage because she found them on the bottom of the ocean floor Thats generally the term used for stuff gotten in such a manner so i would have used that even if there wasnt a ship nearby rotting away. Now, an interesting question would be, when did these things get there? She cant have been the first person to go scuba diving there... right? Its got a pretty scary name but I assume its been explored at some point in history. So did she activate something by accident? Did she give off some sort of reading the orbs were scanning for and they revealed themselves? or was there a recently crashed ufo underwater that avoided detection because its like the orbs and unscannable? I really hope the last one isnt the case because sydney... thats really important to let your bosses know about. I personally expect the general consensus to be "Dont talk about where you got them, we will stick with the florida keys cover story, and so help me sydney, if you are hiding anything else about your acquiring the orbs and we find out at the worst possible time, im dangling you over a cliff edge with mittens glued to your hands." Also, her justifying not telling the truth because she still wasnt sure she could trust them, and on some level she knew that finding them off the coast of another nation would be an issue.

[halfeye]

Coming from a country that actually has rules about finding treasure, because there is very old treasure to be found, the term you ought to be thinking of is "treasure trove".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_trove

This bit may or may not have been relevant if the treasure was found in the UK:

It was the duty of the finder, and indeed of anyone who had acquired knowledge of the matter, to report the finding of a potential treasure trove to the coroner of the district. Concealing a find was a misdemeanour[27][28] punishable with fine and imprisonment.[20][29] The coroner was required to hold an inquest with a jury to determine who were the finders or the persons suspected to be the finders, "and that may be well perceived where one liveth riotously and have done so of long time".[21][30] Where there had been an apparent concealment of treasure trove the coroner's jury could investigate the title of the treasure to discover if it had been concealed from the supposed owner, but any such finding was not conclusive[31] as the coroner generally had no jurisdiction to enquire into questions of title to the treasure between the Crown and any other claimant. If a person wished to assert title to the treasure, he or she had to bring separate court proceedings.[28][32]

Also it has to be gold or silver, which the orbs, probably aren't at least not 100%.

I bet Mexico has rules about ancient treasures.

[lord_khaine]

We do have laws as well about that sort of things. Danefæ. Meaning that treasure found in the ground belongs to the state.
But that your entitled to a finders fee.

So yeah. Honestly the only thing that stop this from being a titanic cluster**** is noone knows.
Possesion is of course 9/10 of the law as the saying goes. But i think in this case the saying is pretty clear.
Lawfully the orbs dont belong to Sydney. Thankfully nothing can be proven.

Did she give off some sort of reading the orbs were scanning for and they revealed themselves?

Well the scene with Varia holding Sydney's hand does hint somewhat at this being at least possible.

[Keltest]

Lawfully the orbs dont belong to Sydney. Thankfully nothing can be proven.

Unless they intend to kidnap a US citizen, it seems the orbs have decided that they are no longer entitled to an opinion.

[lord_khaine]

Unless they intend to kidnap a US citizen, it seems the orbs have decided that they are no longer entitled to an opinion.

Kidnap?

If we are going by rule of law. Then as such Sydney has stolen a priceless artifact.
So all the robbed country would have to do, assuming the relevant treaties is in place.
Would be to request having her handed out for prosecution.

Then assuming rule of law was still being followed.
Then Sydney would likely just face a minor sentence and having the orbs confiscated.
But it would be her problem when she suddenly could not leave again.

Of course there is to many reasons, including ones its not allowed to talk about, for why rule of law would not be followed.
All the same. Both Max and Arianna's reaction seems to show they are aware of how much trouble this is.

[Max_Killjoy]

Kidnap?

If we are going by rule of law. Then as such Sydney has stolen a priceless artifact.
So all the robbed country would have to do, assuming the relevant treaties is in place.
Would be to request having her handed out for prosecution.

Then assuming rule of law was still being followed.
Then Sydney would likely just face a minor sentence and having the orbs confiscated.
But it would be her problem when she suddenly could not leave again.

Of course there is to many reasons, including ones its not allowed to talk about, for why rule of law would not be followed.
All the same. Both Max and Arianna's reaction seems to show they are aware of how much trouble this is.

Sidney has no idea how to detach the orbs.

To seize the orbs is to seize Sidney.

[Keltest]

Sidney has no idea how to detach the orbs.

To seize the orbs is to seize Sidney.

Correct. Depending on how quickly they bonded with her, Sydney may not have even had a choice about leaving the water with them.

[lord_khaine]

Sidney has no idea how to detach the orbs.

To seize the orbs is to seize Sidney.

And... ?
I dont see the relevance here.

[Keltest]

And... ?
I dont see the relevance here.

You claimed it would be Sydney's problem that she suddenly couldnt leave. It very much would not be. If the orbs are moved by sufficient force, she is moved with them.

In other words, they would be kidnapping her if they confiscated the orbs.

[Max_Killjoy]

You claimed it would be Sydney's problem that she suddenly couldnt leave. It very much would not be. If the orbs are moved by sufficient force, she is moved with them.

In other words, they would be kidnapping her if they confiscated the orbs.

AND as someone noted, the orbs may well have latched on to Sidney before she had any say in the matter, meaning that for Mexico to keep the orbs, they'd have had to have held Sidney (not a citizen of Mexico) against her will, if they'd found out about the orbs and tried to keep her there when she first found them.

[Traab]

We do have laws as well about that sort of things. Danefæ. Meaning that treasure found in the ground belongs to the state.
But that your entitled to a finders fee.

So yeah. Honestly the only thing that stop this from being a titanic cluster**** is noone knows.
Possesion is of course 9/10 of the law as the saying goes. But i think in this case the saying is pretty clear.
Lawfully the orbs dont belong to Sydney. Thankfully nothing can be proven.



Well the scene with Varia holding Sydney's hand does hint somewhat at this being at least possible.

Another thing that comes to mind is the proof angle. With shipwrecks we tend to at least have historical records of them existing and ideas of where they likely went down, making it easier to establish ownership or at least whose territorial waters they were found in. Not counting tracking the people doing the looting and where they took their boat since salvage aint exactly a fast process. Here they have no way of establishing they existed in their territory. Unless there is something else there of course.

*EDIT* As for latching onto her, I would imagine an extradition treaty exists between the nations that could be enforced over this. While they cant separate the two currently, they can incarcerate her on various charges related to stealing stuff from the nation of great value which would give them all sorts of time to work on ways to break the bond between them.

[lord_khaine]

You claimed it would be Sydney's problem that she suddenly couldnt leave. It very much would not be. If the orbs are moved by sufficient force, she is moved with them.

In other words, they would be kidnapping her if they confiscated the orbs.

AND as someone noted, the orbs may well have latched on to Sidney before she had any say in the matter, meaning that for Mexico to keep the orbs, they'd have had to have held Sidney (not a citizen of Mexico) against her will, if they'd found out about the orbs and tried to keep her there when she first found them.

No they would not be kidnapping her. They would be retrieving stolen national treasure.
The law is notoriously uncaring for single individuals at that point.

You dont get to take them back home, if the british crown jewels are accidentially glued to your hand either.
And so it would be Sydney's problem that she had to stay and wait for attempts to "unglue" the orbs.
But thats hardly an issue since there is likely prison time anyway.

Another thing that comes to mind is the proof angle. With shipwrecks we tend to at least have historical records of them existing and ideas of where they likely went down, making it easier to establish ownership or at least whose territorial waters they were found in. Not counting tracking the people doing the looting and where they took their boat since salvage aint exactly a fast process. Here they have no way of establishing they existed in their territory. Unless there is something else there of course.

Yeah as mentioned earlier. This is the thing that saves the situation. That nothing can be proven.
She clearly hid away for quite a while. And she took something that people first now know is valuable.
So clearly for several reasons Rule of Law wont be followed.

[Shining Wrath]

Obviously we are all in way over our heads debating international law. So is Dave, which is why I hope this doesn't go on for long.

• It may matter under law if the orbs are considered flotsam or jetsam. If the orbs were deliberately discarded by aliens, they may belong to Sydney. If the alien ship crashed, they belong to the aliens. If the aliens fired the orbs at earth to destroy the dinosaurs that's jetsam but with ill intent; it'd be like asking for your cannonballs back from a ship you sank.
• Mexico's legal claim is weaker, I suspect, if the orbs are not the product of humans living in what is now Mexico.
• I'm pretty confident that the United States would not agree to send a very powerful super to live in a Mexican museum for the rest of her life. The power imbalance between the US and Mexico is pretty large in the real world, and in this world where the US has organized a whole team of supers, it's worse.
• I'm also pretty confident that "Oh well, the orbs belong to Mexico and since they can't be separated from Sydney, she belongs to Mexico as well" would not hold up in a US court or in the Hague. There's some pretty strict laws and treaties about slavery.
• What's likely to happen is that Arianne uses her super powers, arguably for good, and finds a loophole that allows Sydney to keep the orbs. Perhaps the US government can write Mexico a check with enough commas in it to placate them.
• Since Sydney can't be separated from the orbs, and was worried clear back in the early strips about being studied in a lab for the rest of her life, I don't much blame her for smuggling them out of Mexico. It doesn't make things better if the lab is in Mexico.

[Traab]

Obviously we are all in way over our heads debating international law. So is Dave, which is why I hope this doesn't go on for long.

• It may matter under law if the orbs are considered flotsam or jetsam. If the orbs were deliberately discarded by aliens, they may belong to Sydney. If the alien ship crashed, they belong to the aliens. If the aliens fired the orbs at earth to destroy the dinosaurs that's jetsam but with ill intent; it'd be like asking for your cannonballs back from a ship you sank.
• Mexico's legal claim is weaker, I suspect, if the orbs are not the product of humans living in what is now Mexico.
• I'm pretty confident that the United States would not agree to send a very powerful super to live in a Mexican museum for the rest of her life. The power imbalance between the US and Mexico is pretty large in the real world, and in this world where the US has organized a whole team of supers, it's worse.
• I'm also pretty confident that "Oh well, the orbs belong to Mexico and since they can't be separated from Sydney, she belongs to Mexico as well" would not hold up in a US court or in the Hague. There's some pretty strict laws and treaties about slavery.
• What's likely to happen is that Arianne uses her super powers, arguably for good, and finds a loophole that allows Sydney to keep the orbs. Perhaps the US government can write Mexico a check with enough commas in it to placate them.
• Since Sydney can't be separated from the orbs, and was worried clear back in the early strips about being studied in a lab for the rest of her life, I don't much blame her for smuggling them out of Mexico. It doesn't make things better if the lab is in Mexico.

To nitpick a bit, it isnt really that important that the orbs be made by mexicans, or even humans for that matter. Just like I cant go into mexico and mine for precious metals without permission, you cant take anything in their claimed territory from artifacts to oil to the fish in their territorial waters. If they can prove the orbs came from within their borders, they have a legit claim on them. But yeah, proving they have a claim is going to be harder. First they have to figure out sydney was there instead of the florida keys which IS a possibility. Then they have to have some sort of evidence the orbs were there before she came along, which would be a lot harder, probably requiring they find some more alien stuff in the general vicinity. then they could make a reasonable case. "We have records of sydney going scuba diving in our waters, and in the same general area we found a half buried alien temple with an altar that had indents for spheres matching hers in size and numbers. "

[halfeye]

Is ambergris flotsam, jetsam, or neither?

[Forum Explorer]

Is ambergris flotsam, jetsam, or neither?

Neither

Obviously we are all in way over our heads debating international law. So is Dave, which is why I hope this doesn't go on for long.

• It may matter under law if the orbs are considered flotsam or jetsam. If the orbs were deliberately discarded by aliens, they may belong to Sydney. If the alien ship crashed, they belong to the aliens. If the aliens fired the orbs at earth to destroy the dinosaurs that's jetsam but with ill intent; it'd be like asking for your cannonballs back from a ship you sank.
• Mexico's legal claim is weaker, I suspect, if the orbs are not the product of humans living in what is now Mexico.
• I'm pretty confident that the United States would not agree to send a very powerful super to live in a Mexican museum for the rest of her life. The power imbalance between the US and Mexico is pretty large in the real world, and in this world where the US has organized a whole team of supers, it's worse.
• I'm also pretty confident that "Oh well, the orbs belong to Mexico and since they can't be separated from Sydney, she belongs to Mexico as well" would not hold up in a US court or in the Hague. There's some pretty strict laws and treaties about slavery.
• What's likely to happen is that Arianne uses her super powers, arguably for good, and finds a loophole that allows Sydney to keep the orbs. Perhaps the US government can write Mexico a check with enough commas in it to placate them.
• Since Sydney can't be separated from the orbs, and was worried clear back in the early strips about being studied in a lab for the rest of her life, I don't much blame her for smuggling them out of Mexico. It doesn't make things better if the lab is in Mexico.

Or they just don't tell anyone, and keep it classified. Even if Mexico found out somehow and kicked up a fuss, the US could claim Sydney found them in the Keys, and if there were more ruins in Mexican waters, the US could suggest that hypothetically whatever previous wielder had the orbs made it to US waters before perishing from their injuries. There's no way to prove that wrong, and Mexico has no way to force the US to bend to their will.

[Traab]

Neither



Or they just don't tell anyone, and keep it classified. Even if Mexico found out somehow and kicked up a fuss, the US could claim Sydney found them in the Keys, and if there were more ruins in Mexican waters, the US could suggest that hypothetically whatever previous wielder had the orbs made it to US waters before perishing from their injuries. There's no way to prove that wrong, and Mexico has no way to force the US to bend to their will.

Yeah it would take something very specific to give mexico any sort of proof to back their claim. Like I said in my post, they find an alien temple with an altar that has recesses for orbs of those exact numbers and size, possibly with an instruction manual for said orbs.