Wizard kill Monk

[Emperor Demonking]

When I looked at the first page something seemed to be missing so.

Say a wizard needs to kill a monk before the monk can get to the closest town , a day away. The monk knows about the wizard.
Can the wizard do it, can the monk survive.
Both level 20.

[AmberVael]

Okay, couple questions on the scenario first:
Has the wizard been to the town before, or, more specifically, can he teleport into the town?
Does the monk need to only set foot in town, or accomplish some goal there?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Wizard

Scry:'where is the monk?
Teleport to a bit further on along the path from the where the monk is.
Celerity; dimensional anchor, forcecage, maximised orb of force.

Sorry, but the monk stands very little chance, unless he does Sir_Giacomo recommends, and become a UMD monster who just teleports into the town, which is unsporting.

[reorith]

the wizard can do it, the monk won't survive.

time stop + delayed blast fireball or wail of the banshee or any number of tools batman has in his arsenal.

[Emperor Demonking]

The monk only needs to set foot in town.

I'll say no to visiting it before, but if you have an idea that requires it, post it.

the wizard can do it, the monk won't survive.

time stop + delayed blast fireball or wail of the banshee or any number of tools batman has in his arsenal.

But the monk has great saves and evasion.

Wizard

Scry:'where is the monk?
Teleport to a bit further on along the path from the where the monk is.
Celerity; dimensional anchor, forcecage, maximised orb of force.
.

Great saves and a rod of cancellation.

Oh yes, no ridiculous cheese.

[nobodylovesyou4]

forcecage allows no save, i think.

[Emperor Demonking]

A forcecage won't kill anyone either.

Can mindblanks block scrying?

[AmberVael]

I'd lean more towards the Wizard winning, myself... he can get closer to the town before the monk, he can use divination on the monk, and he can trap/kill the monk before he gets there very, very easily.

I'd say drop him in a wall of force with dimension door (don't bother wasting a force cage just yet).

Once he uses his melee attack for the rod of cancellation on the force wall, then runs his 90ft (woohoo! 90ft!) you can just zap him with a cage of force /dimension lock combo and win from there. Repeat until he has no rods of cancellation left- even if he makes you cast forcecage again, rods of cancellation cost more than the material component.

And yeah, forcecages can't kill, but wizards with nigh unlimited rounds sure as hell can.

[Dausuul]

What equipment does the monk have? What equipment does the wizard have? Does the wizard get to pick his spells specifically for this task? And what tactics are considered "cheese?" Obviously anything involving gate, polymorph, or shapechange is cheese, but different people draw the line at different points. What sourcebooks are allowed? Has the wizard ever seen the monk before?

Whatever tactic the wizard comes up with, it's possible to come up with a counter-tactic for the monk, but only if the monk has Schroedinger's Wealth By Level*. These contests generally go a lot better if the participants' capabilities are nailed down beforehand.

*That is, the monk's gear is indeterminate until the wizard casts a spell that would require the monk to have a specific item to counter it, at which point the monk is discovered to have that item.

[Emperor Demonking]

If he's running, its 450ft.

When I said cheese, I meant stuff like wishing for a candle of invocation, unlimited titans and that sort of thing.

[Neon Knight]

If he's running, its 450ft.

But running is a full round action. A whole round you don't spend countering the wizard with your rod of cancellation.

That could be fatal.

[BardicDuelist]

I think a better question is "How could the monk win?" rather than "Who would win?" as the latter is obvious in most situations.

[Snadgeros]

The monk outdoes the wizard by in speed, so he'd be hard to get the jump on. Even if the wizard used teleport in front of him, that was his round and now the monk goes. Can you say stunning fist? A 20th level monk's stunning fist has a will save DC of 20+his wisdom modifier (which should be good if the monk leveled correctly). Not to mention, he can use it 20 times per day, and can make each one of his hits in flurry of blows a stunning fist, so the wizard's bound to fail one of them. Next round, the wizard's stunned, and the monk initiates grapple and pins him, thereby eliminating all chances of casting a spell (no verbal components for you!) Then he just does unarmed damage over and over and over until the wizard's down. There's no way a wizard is going to have enough strength to overcome a monk with high strength, decent BAB, and improved grapple. Even if he does succeed, he has to succeed TWICE or else he's not pinned, but still grappled. How many spells with only verbal components would be useful there?

But let's suppose the wizard does get the jump on the monk. What spells does he use? The monk's an outsider so that narrows the selection. Forcecage is useless since the monk can dimension door out (abundant step). Fireballs and the like can be stopped with evasion. Any spell with a save is virtually useless. And let's not forget the monk's spell resistance and ability to go ethereal. I'm not an expert in the field of spellcasting though, so I'll leave the wizard's strategies up to you guys. Just please, no cheese.

[Tyger]

As Dausuul said, more info about what both have for a) feats, b) skills, c) spells (in the case of the Wizard) and most importantly for the monk, d) equipment is needed before the contest can be really adjudicated.

In general though, that monk is going to lose. There are few things he can do to get away from a wizard of that level who's sole occupation is preventing him from reaching the town. Hell, he doesn't even have to be killed, he just has to be stopped from getting in to the town. No problem.

Could even be done with some low level illusion spells if that's all you need to do.

And even killing the monk isn't really that much of a challenge. Any of the arguments on the boards that the monk stands a chance all involve specific gear and specific skills. Which takes us back to Dausuul's original point.

End result? More info please.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm.... let's see....

Can we get an actual distance, rather than a timeframe? Use of certain skills, certain magic items, and certain spells will make a significant time difference. For now, I'll assume it's the distance a monk would walk in 8 hours - 72 miles - on the shortest route.

Further assumptions:
Pure Core
Pure Monk-20
Pure Wizard-20
There's some kind of cover or concealment for a small character along the entire route.
Wizard does not know where I am initially.
I can hire spells cast beforehand, provided they have a duration over 24 hours, without giving the wizard a "head start" of any kind.


Method:
Hire an Extended Mind Blank.
Max ranks in Hide and Move Silently (+23 for both, just from that)
Play a goblin (monster manual I, it's a core source - gets a bonus to Move Silently, and is small, so gets a bonus to Hide; +4 to both; up to +27; also grants darkvision-60)
Decent dex, call it 24 (for another +7 to Hide and Move Silently; up to +34; we'll say this includes +6 Gauntlets of Dexterity, my racial bonus, and a base 16).
Stealthy Feat (another +2 Hide/Move Silently; up to +36)
Skill Focus (Hide) and Skill Focus(Move Silently) at +3 for each; up to +39 Hide/Move Silently.
Boots of Elvenkind (+5 Compentence Move Silently; up to +44) and a Robe of Blending (+10 Competence Hide, up to +49) cap off the stealth skills.
Hire a lot of castings of Extended Magic Aura before the trip, one for each magic item, so I can't be located by way of things like Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, or Greater Arcane Sight; as a first-level spell (second level, with the Extend), this is pocket change for a day trip.
I'll assume, just to be nice to the Wizard, that a Helm of Teleportation is out of the question. If whoever builds the Wizard tries cheese (by my definition), the item will be in play; I set foot in the town in one standard action.
Rest of the build rather standard stuff - +5 Cloak of Resistance, +6 Peripat of Wisdom, and so on. Fairly generic boosting items. I have not included anything outside a Monk-20's Wealth By Level here. Figure minimum saves of about +23 all around (+12 base, +5 Cloak, +6 Stat; which is acheivable by way of a 16 base with a +6 stat boosting item, or an 11 base, +6 stat boosting item, and the +5 Tome/Manual) this is being conservative; it can get higher pretty easily.

I start the trip at night, hiding and moving silently all the way. Theory of this build being that you can't kill what you can't find. I'll assume the Wizard doesn't know where I am, initially. Anything involving Scrying, Discern Location, or similar fails (no roll, due to the mind blank). See Invisibility will not help you (I'm not invisible, I've just got an absurd Hide check). I'll be traveling at half-speed (so no penalty to hide). I do not take the most direct route; I take an arbitrary one. I've got 48 hours before my spells wear off, and a Forced March only deals nonlethal damage and causes fatigue. I've got 20 points of healing before dipping into any items to remove the nonlethal and with it, the fatigue, so I can pretty easily get 20-24 hours of continuous movement while Hiding, without seriously crimping combat ability later on - and at half-speed, that's 90-108 miles for having an alternative route.

Can anyone beat this, Core, with the above assumptions (and without burning down all cover or similar)?

[Dausuul]

The monk outdoes the wizard by in speed, so he'd be hard to get the jump on. Even if the wizard used teleport in front of him, that was his round and now the monk goes. Can you say stunning fist? A 20th level monk's stunning fist has a will save DC of 20+his wisdom modifier (which should be good if the monk leveled correctly). Not to mention, he can use it 20 times per day, and can make each one of his hits in flurry of blows a stunning fist, so the wizard's bound to fail one of them. Next round, the wizard's stunned, and the monk initiates grapple and pins him, thereby eliminating all chances of casting a spell (no verbal components for you!) Then he just does unarmed damage over and over and over until the wizard's down. There's no way a wizard is going to have enough strength to overcome a monk with high strength, decent BAB, and improved grapple. Even if he does succeed, he has to succeed TWICE or else he's not pinned, but still grappled. How many spells with only verbal components would be useful there?

But let's suppose the wizard does get the jump on the monk. What spells does he use? The monk's an outsider so that narrows the selection. Forcecage is useless since the monk can dimension door out (abundant step). Fireballs and the like can be stopped with evasion. Any spell with a save is virtually useless. And let's not forget the monk's spell resistance and ability to go ethereal. I'm not an expert in the field of spellcasting though, so I'll leave the wizard's strategies up to you guys. Just please, no cheese.

Okay, here we go.

Wizard casts discern location to find the monk (assuming he's seen the monk before; if not, he'll have to get more creative), then fly and protection from arrows. He then uses greater teleport to transport himself to a point 100 feet above the monk's location, and a greater metamagic rod of quicken to cast Mordenkainen's disjunction on the monk in the same round.

At this point, the monk has just lost all magical gear he might possess, which means he has no means of flight. He might have a ranged weapon, but it's no longer magical, which means the wizard has DR 10 against it. His offensive options are pretty much nil. So he runs 450 feet.

Next round, the wizard flies 60 feet toward the monk (distance is now 390 feet horizontal, 100 feet vertical) and casts time stop. He spends the first time stopped round teleporting next to the monk, then uses the rod again for dimensional lock. The second round, he drops down to 30 feet horizontal, 40 feet vertical and uses the rod a third time to drop forcecage and Extended acid fog on the monk before the time stop wears off.

Then he just sits and waits while the monk eats a total of 80d6 points of acid damage with no saving throw and no spell resistance.

[Karsh]

First of all, a Phantom Steed is nearly 3 times faster than the Monk, and can fly. The monk can't even outrun its Double Move if they have the run feat.

[CatCameBack]

Mannnnnn!!!!

From the subject, I thought this thread was about some story like "MAN BITES DOG" or something....

I was misled! Let me out!


Srsly though... two spells that go a long way (unless they have changed recently) are Project Image, Imprisonment.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Great saves and a rod of cancellation.

Orb of force - no SR, no save.

The monk outdoes the wizard by in speed, so he'd be hard to get the jump on. Even if the wizard used teleport in front of him, that was his round and now the monk goes.

Teleport to 500ft above the monk on your phantom steed. Maybe contingency:dimension door to avoid an abundant step attack.

Forcecage is useless since the monk can dimension door out (abundant step).

1/day, Snadge, 1/day.

I'm not a Tippy-esque wizard fanatic, but this is one of the strongest classes going up against one of the weakest, and playing to its strength.

[Jack_Simth]

Okay, here we go.

Wizard casts discern location to find the monk (assuming he's seen the monk before; if not, he'll have to get more creative), then fly and protection from arrows. He then uses greater teleport to transport himself to a point 100 feet above the monk's location, and a greater metamagic rod of quicken to cast Mordenkainen's disjunction on the monk in the same round.

At this point, the monk has just lost all magical gear he might possess, which means he has no means of flight. He might have a ranged weapon, but it's no longer magical, which means the wizard has DR 10 against it. His offensive options are pretty much nil. So he runs 450 feet.

Next round, the wizard flies 60 feet toward the monk (distance is now 390 feet horizontal, 100 feet vertical) and casts time stop. He spends the first time stopped round teleporting next to the monk, then uses the rod again for dimensional lock. The second round, he drops down to 30 feet horizontal, 40 feet vertical and uses the rod a third time to drop forcecage and Extended acid fog on the monk before the time stop wears off.

Then he just sits and waits while the monk eats a total of 80d6 points of acid damage with no saving throw and no spell resistance.

Requires a couple of things:
1) You've met the monk (but that's not so bad)
2) Discern Location will work on the Monk (hired Mind Blank - and I posted first, so you can't accuse me of using the quantum monk!)
3) You can find the monk, even knowing what location he was at a round ago (what's your Spot check?)
4) The Monk fails his Will saves for his magical equipment on the Disjunction (NOT a given).
5) Monk fails his SR check vs. the Dimension Lock when he tries for an Abundant Step.

[Wraithy]

another factor that needs to be taken into account:
how far away is the village?
if it is close enough then the monk can travel there while the wizard prepares spells. OK, overused argument, but it is still valid.
lets say the wizard had prepared his spells the night before for agriculture or whatever (it doesn't really matter its just an example), then his options are decidedly limited, the wizard and the monk are offered the challenge, so the wizard starts preparing his spells so that he can stop the monk in just a few rounds. this means that (if my calculations are right, please correct me if I'm wrong ) the monk can reach any village within 16 miles even if they don't run (I can't be bothered to work out the maximum distance a lvl 20 monk can travel in 8 hours). I'm not factoring in movement increase feats etc. because this relies on the fact that neither the monk nor the wizard are prepared for the situation beforehand.
honestly I think my method is the only way the monk could manage it

[Sornjss Lichdom]

Oh yes, no ridiculous cheese.

a 20th level wizard kinda is, if he's put together halfway desently.

Do acid fog, when he comes out do some more dirct damage. and then do power words. Stun beat him up some more, coup de grace him, or beat him down until power word, kill works. no saves.

[Kompera]

The Wizard has the advantage in:

Movement speed and type;
Yes, the Monk's foot speed is a very superior 90 ft assuming medium size, but the Wizard can Overland Flight 40 ft and as the crow flies may still beat foot rate on winding roads or across rugged terrain, Teleport 2000 miles, Ploymorph into a stunning array of critters with diverse and potent travel modes, Plane Shift, etc, etc.

Information Gathering;

Range and potency of attacks;

Not considering any magic items and just looking at the base classes, it seems like a home run for the Wizard. Add magic items to the mix and the discussion will probably devolve into the typical "Well, the Monk has this", "But the Wizard can have that same item. And a Wizard MADE that item!" back and forth.

[Mr. Moogle]

The monk outdoes the wizard by in speed, so he'd be hard to get the jump on. Even if the wizard used teleport in front of him, that was his round and now the monk goes. Can you say stunning fist? A 20th level monk's stunning fist has a will save DC of 20+his wisdom modifier (which should be good if the monk leveled correctly). Not to mention, he can use it 20 times per day, and can make each one of his hits in flurry of blows a stunning fist, so the wizard's bound to fail one of them. Next round, the wizard's stunned, and the monk initiates grapple and pins him, thereby eliminating all chances of casting a spell (no verbal components for you!) Then he just does unarmed damage over and over and over until the wizard's down. There's no way a wizard is going to have enough strength to overcome a monk with high strength, decent BAB, and improved grapple. Even if he does succeed, he has to succeed TWICE or else he's not pinned, but still grappled. How many spells with only verbal components would be useful there?

But let's suppose the wizard does get the jump on the monk. What spells does he use? The monk's an outsider so that narrows the selection. Forcecage is useless since the monk can dimension door out (abundant step). Fireballs and the like can be stopped with evasion. Any spell with a save is virtually useless. And let's not forget the monk's spell resistance and ability to go ethereal. I'm not an expert in the field of spellcasting though, so I'll leave the wizard's strategies up to you guys. Just please, no cheese.

YES! An exeptional example of what I've been attempting to do for a very long time.

VIVA LA MONK!

[Arbitrarity]

If the monk is undetectable, there is an easier solution. Simply destroy the town.

I'm thinking that's easier than subduing another 20'th level character, who is outside buffed.

How about... killing off the entire population by Sympathy and a Symbol of Insanity? Or sending in a spectre, who causes the entire town to become spectres, and rasing the bodies as zombies to tear apart the town?

[Wraithy]

but the town will still be there, even if it is empty or a crator, depending on the exact wording of the challenge

[skywalker]

At this point, the monk has just lost all magical gear he might possess, which means he has no means of flight.

It's chancy, but... max ranks in jump!

He might have a ranged weapon, but it's no longer magical, which means the wizard has DR 10 against it. His offensive options are pretty much nil. So he runs 450 feet.

He could dimension door 800ft.

Arbitrarity, I declare your solution to be unsporting.

I actually saw a level 13 wizard get utterly owned by a level 13 monk. The wizard was, in fact flying and invisible. Then his invisibility wore off and the monk dimension doored into him and grappled him. I'm not saying this is comparable at all to a level 20 wizard, but it is some actual(non-theoretical evidence) that points to the monk having more of a chance than some people think.

[Snadgeros]

YES! An exeptional example of what I've been attempting to do for a very long time.

VIVA LA MONK!

Yeah, we who enjoy playing fist-fighting ninja-esque gods of movement need to stick together. Monks make excellent mage-killers. I don't care what anyone says, grapple rules aren't too complicated, I find them simple and extraordinarily useful. It completely bypasses AC and prevents spellcasting.

So what this matchup comes down to is two factors, what spells does the wizard have prepared and who wins initiative? Monks have good DEX so winning initiative is in their favor, so the wizard needs a surprise round or he's getting a face full of stunning fists. Once again, I'm going to leave the specifics of what spells to use and how to have them prepared (without cheese) up to you guys.

[Goumindong]

The monk outdoes the wizard by in speed, so he'd be hard to get the jump on. Even if the wizard used teleport in front of him, that was his round and now the monk goes. Can you say stunning fist? A 20th level monk's stunning fist has a will save DC of 20+his wisdom modifier (which should be good if the monk leveled correctly). Not to mention, he can use it 20 times per day, and can make each one of his hits in flurry of blows a stunning fist, so the wizard's bound to fail one of them. Next round, the wizard's stunned, and the monk initiates grapple and pins him, thereby eliminating all chances of casting a spell (no verbal components for you!) Then he just does unarmed damage over and over and over until the wizard's down. There's no way a wizard is going to have enough strength to overcome a monk with high strength, decent BAB, and improved grapple. Even if he does succeed, he has to succeed TWICE or else he's not pinned, but still grappled. How many spells with only verbal components would be useful there?

But let's suppose the wizard does get the jump on the monk. What spells does he use? The monk's an outsider so that narrows the selection. Forcecage is useless since the monk can dimension door out (abundant step). Fireballs and the like can be stopped with evasion. Any spell with a save is virtually useless. And let's not forget the monk's spell resistance and ability to go ethereal. I'm not an expert in the field of spellcasting though, so I'll leave the wizard's strategies up to you guys. Just please, no cheese.

Dimension Door. Verbal Component only[grappling stops somatic components, not verbal].

Freedom of Movement. Grapple automaticially fails

[Sornjss Lichdom]

Use plane shift greater as a reach touch attack (feat, high arcane, etc.) sending the monk to a different plane. doubt he reaches that place now, exspeacialy if he is having a picnic on the negitive energy plane.