Tripping, Grappling (from Killing Jet Li thread)

[Tyrael]

Ahoy, folks. I was arguing with another player last night about the merits of monks vs tank classes at level 20. He seemed to believe that an "average" monk, with or without VoP, kicks ass more effectively than a Fighter. I want to prove him wrong.

I've done some poking through the Wizards CO boards, and could only locate the Chain-Gun Tripper. That's nice, but are there any other good Tripping builds? How about Grapplers? I think I remember seeing one or two Grapplers floating around here...

The Monk advocate proclaimed that he could simply pump WIS, then Spring Attack move-StunningFist-move in and out until I failed a save, then flail away. I want to deny him that. I know I can counter the Etherealness with a Ghost Touch weapon, but his fists are considered Adamantine, which is nasty for any weapon I might hold. VoP gives Displacement and makes his fists +5 magic weapons, which I have no idea how to counter.

[Jasdoif]

I know I can counter the Etherealness with a Ghost Touch weapon, but his fists are considered Adamantine, which is nasty for any weapon I might hold.

The simplest solution to this is to get your own weapons made out adamantine. Adamantine only ignores hardness that's less then 20, and adamantine has hardness 20 (and this doesn't count the hardness increase an enhancement bonus on a magic weapon provides).

[Kaelik]

Ahoy, folks. I was arguing with another player last night about the merits of monks vs tank classes at level 20. He seemed to believe that an "average" monk, with or without VoP, kicks ass more effectively than a Fighter. I want to prove him wrong.

I've done some poking through the Wizards CO boards, and could only locate the Chain-Gun Tripper. That's nice, but are there any other good Tripping builds? How about Grapplers? I think I remember seeing one or two Grapplers floating around here...

The Monk advocate proclaimed that he could simply pump WIS, then Spring Attack move-StunningFist-move in and out until I failed a save, then flail away. I want to deny him that. I know I can counter the Etherealness with a Ghost Touch weapon, but his fists are considered Adamantine, which is nasty for any weapon I might hold. VoP gives Displacement and makes his fists +5 magic weapons, which I have no idea how to counter.

Okay, your strategy is simple. Wear no Armor, get Speed Enhancement Boots. Build a Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/with a Spiked Chain. Also pick up Combat Reflexes/Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike. Keep in mind that Spring Attack still only allows him to move his move action, not a double move.

After he Spring Attacks, Charge him. Do 2d6 + 1 and 1/2 Str + 60 damage on what should usually be a hit. Next round when he attacks/flurries, rip him up with more 2d6 + 1 1/2 Str + 60.

[KIDS]

If he's VOP, just get Winged Boots and shoot him down with a volley of arrows. He doesn't have any way to reach you...
(speaking of which, regardless of opponents, a fighter should have those)
Something AoO focused would work just fine. Remember that even if you fail a stunning fist save he won't be able to kill you in one round (you're not helpless).

[deadseashoals]

Using AoOs on the monk would be a terrible idea. Since you won't ever get any, as monks get Tumble as a class skill, and have the movement to back it up. It's just about the only thing they're good at.

I don't think you need a "build" to beat that strategy. It's the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time, as it's easily, easily countered by simply readying a trip, grapple, or attack. Or you know, making the ridiculously easy Fort DC. Or sucking it up and taking the hits while you're stunned for all of one round, then full attacking back. I don't think your friend has thought this one through.

[Fawsto]

The nastiest (is this correct?) thing that a monk can do is probably succeeding on triping you. This would be kind of bad... Since he would now attack you with ease and you won't attack him with full potential. Till you get up, and it takes an AoO, that he may use as a trip, if you fail again, it is bad... But, c'mon, you're a fighter, your Str score and BAB are normaly higher than her. You will eventualy get up and beat the crap out of him. Btw, buy spiked gountlets, you don't want to be disarmed.

[Kaelik]

The nastiest (is this correct?) thing that a monk can do is probably succeeding on triping you. This would be kind of bad... Since he would now attack you with ease and you won't attack him with full potential. Till you get up, and it takes an AoO, that he may use as a trip, if you fail again, it is bad... But, c'mon, you're a fighter, your Str score and BAB are normaly higher than her. You will eventualy get up and beat the crap out of him. Btw, buy spiked gountlets, you don't want to be disarmed.

Buy locked Guantlets and a THW. You will never be disarmed by a Monk.

[Shishnarfne]

Just one minor point: his fists are listed as bypassing DR/adamantine. I don't think that this is exactly the same as having the other properties of adamantine (bypassing hardness of a material). This may be a minor quibble on my part, but has this been adressed by FAQ or published source?

EDIT: I stand corrected.

(So as to have a useful bit of info, might I suggest a reach weapon that allows trip attacks: just ready an action to trip him when he gets in range, then that will go off before he can attempt a Stunner. As trips are your Strength opposed by his Dex/Str, I think you'll win one before you fail a Fort Save. But someone probably mentioned this in the other thread.)

[Frosty]

Just pump your Fort sve really high, and then take that feat in the PHB2 that says you don't fail a fort save on a natural 1 anymore. Problem solved.

[Jasdoif]

Just one minor point: his fists are listed as bypassing DR/adamantine. I don't think that this is exactly the same as having the other properties of adamantine (bypassing hardness of a material). This may be a minor quibble on my part, but has this been adressed by FAQ or published source?

Bypassing DR doesn't confer material properties, no; however the Monk gets both:

At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

[leperkhaun]

get a high fort save.

Build a charger. When he springs away charge him.

Power attack + shock trooper + leap attack + valourus weapons + Rgambit = dead monk as someone else suggested.

Also you could ready an action to trip the monk as he gets close. So you would trip him before he even gets to you.

You wont find a whole lot of 20 fighter builds as most people just just a 1 or 2 level dip then multiclass into something else (on the CO boards at least).

[illathid]

Using AoOs on the monk would be a terrible idea. Since you won't ever get any, as monks get Tumble as a class skill, and have the movement to back it up. It's just about the only thing they're good at.

If he's using Robilar's Gambit however, I'll bet most of his AoO's aren't from movement. So no Tumble for you.

If you wanted movement based AoO's you just need 2 feats, Martial Study (Foehammer) and Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades).

Also, I'm fairly sure VoP doesn't give Displacement.

[leperkhaun]

Hmmm also.... the wounding weapon ability..... it tends to add up quickly.

[Hyfigh]

Don't worry about his adamantine fists. If he pumps his WIS he won't be able to deal enough damage to you for you to worry. You should, if you build correctly and he pumps WIS, have almost twice his hit points. You'll probably also do far and away more damage.

If I can at all sway you from grappling, may I unless you very heavily focus on it. Charging damage and/or tripping end up being a little more efficient.

Finally, his tactic will be sub-par especially for a fighter type because stun will focus on Fort saves... Fighters good save. He'll basically be blowing stuns until he can finally get you on a bad roll, then come in and flurry for horrible damage per hit. This isn't to mention his lack of BAB and attack in general...