OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogan]

Hmmm... That would be interesting although at the same time I feel like Haley might have caught that. As it is she seems to believe that it's a trap which is triggered upon stepping over it (resetting itself immediately after). Of course it could be that she's good enough to detect and activate it but not good enough to understand its exact workings... do we know how Haley compares to Serini at this point?

Okay, this is a good point. My idea does not fit Haleys description of the trap.
On the other hand, she does not seem to know in detail what this trap is supposed to do. In the pyramid, she knew exactly what every part of the trap would do (meteor swarm, stoneskin etc)
So, this trap seems to be an unusual kind. Haley might really be just high level enough to find the trap and work with it, without understanding the details.
On the other hand, bypassing a trap is harder than disabling it completely. If Haley felt she had a good chance at bypassing, the trap could not be THAT complicated.


About the level difference between H. and S.
I think, S is supposed to be low epic, while H is high-non-epic. So a difference of about 5 levels?

[Toper]

CL0: "You" - covers both V and Blackwing for free, through Share Spells.

That stops working if the familiar moves more than 5 feet from the caster. Doesn't really matter to the story, though.

[bunsen_h]

Perhaps the trap is in two parts. Haley disabled the first one. The second, harder to detect, activates a portal only if the first one is disarmed or disabled.

[Arthaiser]

there is something in the character arc of a wizard that becomes cocky, then fails, theb acknowledges his cockiness and admits that he was wrong, then becomes super helpful to the party that i simply love. in the case of V is been done masterfully

[Feruk]

My quatloos are that they're going to run into - maybe literally - the paladin-stealing invisible peoples. Might be on their way to the gate, might not be (I'm not convinced that this is the gate route yet), but might be interesting. Downside is that the invisible voices didn't seem to head into a door, but maybe they can teleport into their lair, or there's another entrance.

[Ghosty]

It's 3.5 - Search, rather than Spot, is used for trap detection. And even then, you need a rogue if the trap is tough enough.

I find it unlikely Redcloak wouldn't be prepping Find Traps though. Perhaps the dimensional stone interferes with that magic in some way that can't fool Trapfinding?

I'd agree, except Find Traps doesn't last very long, 1 minute per level. Even Extended, it doesn't sound like the kind of buff he could constantly keep running. Plus, as noted, even if he could now Search for traps like a Rogue, he likely doesn't have a high Search skill.

The more I think about it, the more likely it seems that there are very few obvious traps requiring a Rogue, in any of the dungeons. If there were, Oona would have had them bring a Rogue along, and since Rogue is the favored class of Bugbears, there's likely one or two of them around. Even in an isolated village like theirs. TE seems fine dungeon crawling w/o one, and they've gone through a bunch of doors already, so there likely aren't many or any obvious traps at all. Versus the trapfest the Pyramid was.

If Rogues aren't needed, Rogues won't be brought along, and the entrance magic runes are likely to not have been discovered.

For the poster who mentioned V and six other entities getting the telepathic link, does that imply a 17th level for V? And if so, does that mean V can throw 9th level spells around now? Like Wish, or Disjunction?

EDIT: Oh, and doesn't the Ioun Stone bauble on Blackwing need to be "close" to V in order to get the Caster Level bump?

[Petrocorus]

Am i the only one who thinks they should remove the rat head?

I also notice there is a line on the wall after the trap is disarmed. I'm more and more convinced by the dimensional portal theory.

Quippie’s back!

Quippie?

Actually, Blackwing doesn't necessarily count. Are there not means to share spells with familiars automatically?

The Share Spells feature only work as long as the familiar remains within 5 feet.

In 5E, a wizard's (or anyone with the find familiar spell) familiar can be summoned back to you as an action, and bringing it back when it's been killed takes a first level spell slot and ten minutes - what're the rules for 3.5? How much of a drain of resources would it take for V to re-summon Blackwing?

Familiars in 3.5 are not spirits that take the form of an animal, they're actual animals being improved by magic.
As someone else said, if Blackwing is killed, V will have to get him raised with usual cost, and cannot have another one for a year and a day.
He will also lose a significant number of XP. 100 XP per level if he succeed a Fortitude save, 200 XP per level if he doesn't.
Quite a blast.

there is something in the character arc of a wizard that becomes cocky, then fails, theb acknowledges his cockiness and admits that he was wrong, then becomes super helpful to the party that i simply love. in the case of V is been done masterfully

Coming to think of it, maybe V didn't achieve ultimate arcane power with the soul splice. Maybe he will achieve ultimate arcane power one day thanks to the character growth he started because of the soul splice.

[Bisqwit]

Aww, Team Good is teaming real good.

[Sebastian]

Disabling the trap puts you into "Serini mode", which might be more tuned to the skillset of a rogue, or at least a balanced party that includes one. That would play into Serini's possible mindset too: wishing for a functional whole party in order to overcome a holistic suite of challenges, rather than how her beloved group ended up fracturing with everyone focusing on their own preference for their dungeon. In Serini's mind, being worthy of reaching the gate might demand a whole cooperating party, not a single kind of skills.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Raven777]

One would thing the purpose of setting up all these traps is to keep anyone at all off the Gates, rather than to challenge the ables and the strongs.

Serini isn't a DM who crafted a dungeon that is meant to be overcome through sufficient skill, she's a guardian who built a trap designed to kill anyone who comes a-knocking.

For any sufficient level of "challenge", these are not mutually exclusive.

And the means to challenge or destroy can still be designed to target a broad range of skills (or weaknesses). One could argue this approach would actually make for a stronger defense anyway.

Because they're not an adventuring party. They're a "take over the world" party - at least as far as the party leader is concerned. And they have Serini's diary. As far as they're concerned, they're good for what they need.

I think this is key to the above. Elan and Thor made clear the world runs on narrative tropes.

A villain will probably attack the dungeon in kind with the dungeon's defenses. Xykon overtook the Dungeon of Dorukan by winning an epic arcane duel... just like Dorukan would have it. Xykon captured the Sapphire Throne by overwhelming Azure City's military... just like Soon would have it. Xykon tries to fight his way through Monster Hollow... just like Kraagor would have it. Just another challenge met head on in the obvious way it presents itself.

But a genuine adventuring party fumbling their way through? Chances are they're here to save the world.

[Dr.Zero]

It's 3.5 - Search, rather than Spot, is used for trap detection. And even then, you need a rogue if the trap is tough enough.

Frankly I don't know how much adherent to the rules is, but in our groups "search" is an active skill, spot is a passive one.
You can search a whole room, with time, for traps.
You can spot immediately (no turn wasted) something out of place in that room, like some tiny holes in the wall.

At that point you say to the rogue to search for traps, and the rogue can find if the holes are effectively a trap, the kind of trap, the mechanism and sometimes a little more.

So basically we detect possible traps with spot and identify them (if they are traps at all) with search.

But, again, that was how we did it when I started to play, this is how we did it when I GMered, and everything seemed logical, but I'm not sure the rules agree with our logic.

[Yxylu]

Quippie?

Uncle Kandro’s great-grandfather’s pet osquip, whose mummified head was bequeathed to Haley in 1182a.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In Serini's mind, being worthy of reaching the gate might demand a whole cooperating party, not a single kind of skills.

So Serini wasn't able to reach her own gate post-construction? That seems counter-productive.

GW

[elros]

Maybe he skipped Belkar?

I think he skipped Belkar, which is why the Giant showed Roy dragging him back in.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe he skipped Belkar?

I think he skipped Belkar, which is why the Giant showed Roy dragging him back in.

Panel 3 disagrees.

[RMS Oceanic]

Oh god!

Spoiler: Oh god! (Spoilers for Start of Darkness)

Show

And then Xykon will blame him for murdering him.

Disagree for two reasons

Spoiler

Show

1. Xykon's only gotten truly mad from two sources: a direct threat to continued existence, and wizardly belittling of his class. His reaction to "we need a rogue" is more likely to be "dang, better find one".

2. Right-Eye was years ago now, but more importantly, Xykon was totally clued in to his desire to kill him, hence the anti-undead sneak attack ring. Odds are Right-Eye would not be around Team Evil right now even if Redcloak didn't intervene.

[Mobius Twist]

Panel 7, Haley says "OK, I've got it figured it out". Is that meant to be "I've got it figured out" or "I've got it; I figured it out"?

[Akrasiel]

With regard to Find Traps, it's great for the stated purpose, but doesn't grant the ability to disarm anything.

[ManuelSacha]

Why is everyone assuming that the trick here is "being good at spotting traps"?
What this page strongly implies is that you have to understand the trick, after you've spotted (and not necessarily disarmed) the trap.

That's why Haley left the rat skull there. She'll explain later, but it's probably to keep the "new path" open, or something.

And it would make a lot of sense for the answer to the question "which of these doors is the real entrance?" to be "none of the above".
Because anyone would be naturally drawn to the conclusion that they have to try a different door... whether they have a high level rogue in their party or not.

[mjasghar]

All these people mind-linked with Belkar and it's Blackwing's stream of thought that's a bother? Who wouldnhave thought?

Belkar is very much brain to mouth - no filters and no introspection internally
His confused feelings are all worked out aloud - which may be a facet of the comic visual medium, but that’s what it is.

[Shining Wrath]

Telepathic Bond is indeed a very fine spell. Except when telepathically bonded with Blackwing.

[137beth]

Telepathic Bond is indeed a very fine spell. Except when telepathically bonded with Blackwing.

Seems like telepathically bonding to Belkar or Elan could have its own disadvantages.

[RatElemental]

So since telepathic bond was used and there are targets on both sides of what appears to be some kind of portal, I'm calling it now: When the 20 seconds are up and the trap reverts back to before Haley messed with it, Blackwing is going to get cut off because the party is on either on another plane or somewhere completely encased in multidimensional stone.

[albertonykus]

As a birder, seeing a raven described as "very small" is funny to me.

[Goblin_Priest]

Because they're not an adventuring party. They're a "take over the world" party - at least as far as the party leader is concerned. And they have Serini's diary. As far as they're concerned, they're good for what they need.

I was going to say exactly this.

They are the two most powerful bad guys with a shared agenda that happened to survive every other trial so far. Underlings are disposible, and rarely revived. See: Tsukiko.

Basically, they aren't the the kind to find a rogue and have him level with them, reviving him if need be. They just take whatever allies stumble upon them, for the time they last, and just move on afterwards.

[Peelee]

I was going to say exactly this.

They are the two most powerful bad guys with a shared agenda that happened to survive every other trial so far. Underlings are disposible, and rarely revived. See: Tsukiko.

Basically, they aren't the the kind to find a rogue and have him level with them, reviving him if need be. They just take whatever allies stumble upon them, for the time they last, and just move on afterwards.

I still love how nicely you were able to expound upon it. You got the words I couldn't find.

[Riftwolf]

As a birder, seeing a raven described as "very small" is funny to me.

Also it's a raven with an orange beak!

[Peelee]

E l an should have Prestidigitated Blackwing to be blue or white or Grey. Sky camo, basically.

[skim172]

Also it's a raven with an orange beak!

Spoiler: Blackwing isn't actually a raven, he's a Eurasian blackbird.

It's gonna break his heart when he finds out the truth...



"A blackbird!? That's not even Corvus! I'm but a common thrush!"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That is quite the rat head!

I'm very excited to see where all this stuff with the trap goes. I also love the little passive-aggressive telepathy in this strip.