Confused with Languages in Monster Manual

[Wooloo]

Hello!

A brief foreword:
I like weirdness in RPG games. I'm not criticizing, I just want to get a better understanding on the design choices that led to the situation below. Also, I want hints to better use it in my game. Thanks in advance!

Here's the thing:
I was shuffling thought the Monster Manual looking at stats and I noticed something that I found odd.
Some of the animals in the appendix section have their own language.

First, I noticed the Giant Eagle. And I found it really cool. Ok, these are majestic, inteligent giant eagles. They communicate, they have their language. Cool.

Then..
The Blink Dog also has its own language. And I thought.. Alright, it's like this magical dog.. Ok, that's fair.

And then... The Winter Wolf has its very own language as well.. And that's when things begin to get a little odd, in my opinion. But maybe there's some reason behind it. Maybe it's a legacy thing, paying homage to an old timey classic adventure with a really interesting wolf NPC? Who knows where things come from, right? Let the winter wolves have their way.

But then...!! Believe it or not... The Giant Elk has it's own language. Yes, a Giant Elk language exists. For some reason, Sylvan is not enough for the Elk! He needs his own grammar and vocabulary. That's very weird from a game design point of view, in my opinion. Because, being honest, how often does your party actually run into giant elks? In the odd chance that they do, wouldn't the party's druid feel cheated by failing to understand this creature?

I guess my point is.. Why is there a Giant Elk language?
What purpose does it serve?
Also, can a PC learn this language? If so, have you ever had a character that speaks Giant Elk?

Sorry if I wasted your time with this post. Thanks for any advice!

Spoiler: page references

Show

Page References:
Giant Eagle, pg.324
Blink Dog, pg.318
Winter Wolf, pg.340
Giant Elk, pg.325

[PhoenixPhyre]

A possibility--

Giant elk are special. They're not fey, so sylvan isn't the right language for them. But they're special (compared to other elk) and can talk. PCs can't (generally) choose to learn Giant Elk, but can use things like tongues or the monk ability to talk with them without needing speak with animals. As fully intelligent beings, giant elk can actually talk and convey information beyond the limited capabilities of most beasts.

WotC tends to make a distinction between "normal" animals (no languages) and "smart" animals (have at least one language). That language isn't often a humanoid one. But that does open up the door for effects that require the target to "speak a language". For instance the Great Old One Awakened Mind telepathy. A GOO lock could send one-way messages to a giant elk, but not to a regular elk.

And they don't give them more generic ones because they don't fit the normal category for those. Sylvan is the language of the fey, and they're not fey. Nor do they have the right mouth-parts to speak a normal language. Same with blink dogs.

Are these perfect answers? No. Are they possibilities? Yeah.

[Unoriginal]

Hello!

A brief foreword:
I like weirdness in RPG games. I'm not criticizing, I just want to get a better understanding on the design choices that led to the situation below. Also, I want hints to better use it in my game. Thanks in advance!

Here's the thing:
I was shuffling thought the Monster Manual looking at stats and I noticed something that I found odd.
Some of the animals in the appendix section have their own language.

First, I noticed the Giant Eagle. And I found it really cool. Ok, these are majestic, inteligent giant eagles. They communicate, they have their language. Cool.

Then..
The Blink Dog also has its own language. And I thought.. Alright, it's like this magical dog.. Ok, that's fair.

And then... The Winter Wolf has its very own language as well.. And that's when things begin to get a little odd, in my opinion. But maybe there's some reason behind it. Maybe it's a legacy thing, paying homage to an old timey classic adventure with a really interesting wolf NPC? Who knows where things come from, right? Let the winter wolves have their way.

But then...!! Believe it or not... The Giant Elk has it's own language. Yes, a Giant Elk language exists. For some reason, Sylvan is not enough for the Elk! He needs his own grammar and vocabulary. That's very weird from a game design point of view, in my opinion. Because, being honest, how often does your party actually run into giant elks? In the odd chance that they do, wouldn't the party's druid feel cheated by failing to understand this creature?

I guess my point is.. Why is there a Giant Elk language?
What purpose does it serve?
Also, can a PC learn this language? If so, have you ever had a character that speaks Giant Elk?

Sorry if I wasted your time with this post. Thanks for any advice!

Spoiler: page references

Show

Page References:
Giant Eagle, pg.324
Blink Dog, pg.318
Winter Wolf, pg.340
Giant Elk, pg.325

There is no game design reason for them to exist, but there is no reason for them to not exist. It's arbitrary weirdness.

Also a way to have taking sapient, animals which are still hard to communicate with.

Also, just to confirm: don't Blink Dogs also speak Sylvain?

[Wooloo]

Hey Phoenix.

Those are actually really good answers. Thanks!

[Wooloo]

There is no game design reason for them to exist, but there is no reason for them to not exist. It's arbitrary weirdness.

Also a way to have taking sapient, animals which are still hard to communicate with.

Also, just to confirm: don't Blink Dogs also speak Sylvain?

Blink Dogs understand Sylvan, but can't speak it. I guess because of what Phoenix mentioned, that their mouth is too different for a humanoid language.

[Amdy_vill]

so the reason these creatures have Languages is complex and goes back to Lord of the Rings. while Gygax was more of a Vance fan his playgroup love, Tolkien. so he incorporated elements from those books. one oF the which was Tolkeins love for making giant animals with complex human-like societies. so we got a lot of creatures that had their own language and the ability to learn more and as we moved into 2e, 3rd, and 4th these creatures were elaborated on ad given complex societies. then 5e rolls around and remove all this context of "these creatures are as smart as most races" and just gives them languages.

so The reason they have languages is in lore these creatures have some level of complex society like dragons.
by like dragons I don't mean massively advance but I do mean vast and wide with no defined borders and an old separation despite being a society. think a tribal society but most individuals spend their lives alone. It's weird and I would read more into dragon society if you wanted to flesh it out more in your games.

[Rara1212]

Also, Winter Wolfs are Monstrosities, pretty sure. Not normal beasts. The Moondruid sheet I use also made that misstake

[Gale]

It makes sense to me. It shows the creatures are intelligent enough that they can speak and have some semblance of a formal society but otherwise don't interact with the rest of the world and therefore have no need to learn a standard language like common, sylvan, etc.

I'm sure a player could potentially learn one of those weird languages, but it would be up to DM discretion. Finding a tutor or any kind of book of translations would definitely be hard; and it would be tricky to work it into your backstory if you wanted to try and take it as a starting language.

Either way, I don't see any compelling reason why niche languages shouldn't exist. Humans are one species, but in real life we speak thousands of different languages. If anything the fact that most humanoids in D&D seem to speak Common strains belief more than giant eagles having their own language.

[Mehangel]

Normally, I don't mind if X or Y creature has its own language. What I don't appreciate is that the Player's Handbook doesn't list these languages. Unlike other editions of D&D, players are generally not supposed to have full access to the Monster Manual, so I think it isn't exactly fair that these languages are not listed in the player's handbook. I also find it annoying that in the Player's Handbook, Primordial is listed a language spoken by elementals, but in the Monster Manual air elementals speak Auran, earth elementals speak Terran, fire elementals speak Ignan, and Water elementals speak Aquan.

So it leaves me wondering, are Auran, Terran, Ignan, and Aquan just dialects of Primordial? Or is it an actual totally different language? I have no clue, and it is frustrating.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Normally, I don't mind if X or Y creature has its own language. What I don't appreciate is that the Player's Handbook doesn't list these languages. Unlike other editions of D&D, players are generally not supposed to have full access to the Monster Manual, so I think it isn't exactly fair that these languages are not listed in the player's handbook. I also find it annoying that in the Player's Handbook, Primordial is listed a language spoken by elementals, but in the Monster Manual air elementals speak Auran, earth elementals speak Terran, fire elementals speak Ignan, and Water elementals speak Aquan.

So it leaves me wondering, are Auran, Terran, Ignan, and Aquan just dialects of Primordial? Or is it an actual totally different language? I have no clue, and it is frustrating.

IIRC, that one is actually mentioned. They're all dialects, close enough to be mutually understood.

[Mehangel]

IIRC, that one is actually mentioned. They're all dialects, close enough to be mutually understood.

Ah, somehow I missed that little blurb on page 123 of the Player's Handbook. Still, I think it would've been better if languages like Aquan, Terran, Ignan, and Aquan were written as Primordial (Aquan), that would make it easier for me to know that it is a dialect of Primordial.

Similarly all these other misc. languages could be explicitly stated in their stat-blocks to be dialects of language X or Y. For example, Giant Elk could be a Sylvan dialect, whereas Blink Dogs could be a Halfling dialect (in past editions the blink dog and halfling have a history of being allies)

[Naanomi]

If you ever took 'beast' as a favored for as a ranger, Giant (animal) was your only choice for the free language... I think more recent books have broadened that a bit

[Willowhelm]

As already mentioned, it distinguishes creatures that are intelligent. So much so that it is also the requirement to use them as spellcaster or expert sidekick.

From Tasha's:

To gain the Expert class, a creature must have at least one language in its stat block that it can speak.

To gain the Spellcaster class, a creature must have at least one language in its stat block that it can speak.

[Mehangel]

As already mentioned, it distinguishes creatures that are intelligent. So much so that it is also the requirement to use them as spellcaster or expert sidekick.

My issue is not that Blink Dogs, or other creatures possess a language, it is that they either A) don't bother listing such languages in the player's handbook or B) don't bother linking such languages as being a dialect of an existing language.

[Naanomi]

My issue is not that Blink Dogs, or other creatures possess a language, it is that they either A) don't bother listing such languages in the player's handbook or B) don't bother linking such languages as being a dialect of an existing language.

It would be challenging to have a comprehensive list of all possible languages in all possible settings in the PHB, especially as new monster entries add them fairly frequently. I never took the list in the PHB as ‘complete’; rather just a list of languages PC races tend to speak or PC scholar races tend to study... things like Sphynx, Modron, and Giant Stag are just outside of the scope of most 1st level characters’ experience (barring perhaps Rangers focusing specifically on particular foes)

[Greywander]

I think it mostly boils down to languages not listed in the PHB are extremely niche (usually only spoken by a specific type of creature, and one that you're unlikely to ever encounter in a given campaign). It's simply not a valuable use of space in the PHB to list all of these out, and anyway these probably aren't languages PCs are meant to know. Another reason they might not be listed in the PHB is because these generally aren't useful languages; you're much, much more likely to get some usage out of Goblin or Orcish than you are Blink Dog or Giant Elk. It helps prevent new players from taking trap options; you have to already have a certain level of familiarity with the system to even know these languages exist, and by that point you should hopefully know what you're getting into by taking such a niche option.

As for Primordial, I believe the four elemental languages are merely dialects, so they are mutually intelligible. The significance of differentiating between them likely comes down to roleplay; if you speak Auran, you might not quite sound like a native speaker, but you would at least sound like a friend to any creature aligned with the element of Air, whereas creatures aligned with the element of Earth might perceive you as a potential enemy. For example (and I can't use a specific example, as I believe it would violate forum rules), take a genocidal dictator of your choice and imagine walking up to a group of people that the dictator committed genocide against while speaking in the same accent the dictator spoke. It's not likely to evoke a friendly response. If you speak Primordial, rather than one of the specific elemental languages, then you might seem more like a neutral or 3rd party, or you might sound more like a scholar/foreigner who has studied the primordial languages, rather than a native speaker (I'm not sure if any creatures natively speak Primordial, it always seems to be one of the elemental dialects).

[Naanomi]

Kraken, Frost Salamanders, Elemental Spirits, and Night-Hags appear to speak ‘Primordial’ instead of any specific dialect (a few other fringe monsters in setting books and adventures as well)

[TigerT20]

My issue is not that Blink Dogs, or other creatures possess a language, it is that they either A) don't bother listing such languages in the player's handbook or B) don't bother linking such languages as being a dialect of an existing language.

But that's entirely besides the point of them really. They're not 'supposed' to be used by PCs (unless they invest in some kind of telepathic or language-based spell). Noone complains that PC's can't get Undead Fortitude, Stench or Martial Advantage. These languages are likely almost unlearnable from a humanoid perspective anyway; relying on body langauge, scents, sounds humans can't hear, etc. You may be able to get the general gist of what's being said, but you'd probably be inaccurate.

Anyway, do you know any non-Welsh person who's decided to learn Welsh? Most people can hardly comprehend the fact it's a language, much less understand what it means!

[Mehangel]

Anyway, do you know any non-Welsh person who's decided to learn Welsh? Most people can hardly comprehend the fact it's a language, much less understand what it means!

*raises hand* I know you were likely being sarcastic, but I am serious. I decided to learn welsh as a kid after reading books like The Door In the Wall, The Grey King, and Taran Wanderer. I am by no means still fluent in that language, but it didn't stop me from trying.

[Segev]

If a druid speaks one of these "beast languages," and assumes a wild shape form of the appropriate beast, would you allow them to speak that language in that form? I think the RAW technically forbid it, but it is probably one of those areas a DM should consider overruling the RAW based on probable RAI being that the rule is thinking about humanoid languages.

[Joe the Rat]

IIRC, that one is actually mentioned. They're all dialects, close enough to be mutually understood.

Like English.

[Greywander]

If a druid speaks one of these "beast languages," and assumes a wild shape form of the appropriate beast, would you allow them to speak that language in that form? I think the RAW technically forbid it, but it is probably one of those areas a DM should consider overruling the RAW based on probable RAI being that the rule is thinking about humanoid languages.

I believe when you Wild Shape into a creature with its own language, such as a giant elk, you take on their stat block in its entirety (except as otherwise noted, e.g. mental stats), which includes gaining that creature's language. So if you Wild Shaped into a giant elk, you would gain the ability to speak Giant Elk, since that's part of the giant elk stat block. You ability to speak is limited according to the form you take, so RAW Wild Shaping into a giant elk would allow you to speak Giant Elk. Not sure if you'd be able to speak any other languages, probably not. Note that you don't need to learn Giant Elk, taking the form of a giant elk gives you the ability to speak it without needing to learn it yourself.

[Segev]

I believe when you Wild Shape into a creature with its own language, such as a giant elk, you take on their stat block in its entirety (except as otherwise noted, e.g. mental stats), which includes gaining that creature's language. So if you Wild Shaped into a giant elk, you would gain the ability to speak Giant Elk, since that's part of the giant elk stat block. You ability to speak is limited according to the form you take, so RAW Wild Shaping into a giant elk would allow you to speak Giant Elk. Not sure if you'd be able to speak any other languages, probably not. Note that you don't need to learn Giant Elk, taking the form of a giant elk gives you the ability to speak it without needing to learn it yourself.

Interesting. Good point.

And since Rangers can take Beasts as a Favored Enemy to learn the language (and any half-elf or human, I think, gets their choice of languages), your druid could communicate with such a party member.

It's a bit gimmicky, but could be interesting to play with.

[Naanomi]

Interesting. Good point.

And since Rangers can take Beasts as a Favored Enemy to learn the language (and any half-elf or human, I think, gets their choice of languages), your druid could communicate with such a party member.

It's a bit gimmicky, but could be interesting to play with.

Rangers can learn Druidic (via plants like treants) or Thieves’ Cant (via humanoids like Deep Scion) also

[Segev]

Rangers can learn Druidic (via plants like treants) or Thieves’ Cant (via humanoids like Deep Scion) also

Ironically, druidic doesn't let them speak in animal form.