Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Mike Havran]

Another thing I wonder about: is the blowdart, mechanically, so different from crossbow that Serini releases two shots from blowdart per round at most, and from a crossbow she releases five? why is that?

[TooSoon]

Yes, that's why she needs three castings of Telepathic Bond, not just two.

The point is V needs to be level 17 for the bond to cover everyone, otherwise the 3rd casting doesn't bond all of them. Bonding 2 other bonds doesn't let you ignore the caster level requirements somehow. Someone would still be left out of the bond.

Any objections to V being changed to "level 17+" or "level 17-20" with a link to the Telepathic bonding spell (which btw isn't in V's stat block yet either)?

[b_jonas]

The point is V needs to be level 17 for the bond to cover everyone, otherwise the 3rd casting doesn't bond all of them.

Let me expand then. Let's say that Vaarsuvius is a level 16 wizard, so when she casts Telepathic Bond, she targets herself and five other party members. She gets to choose new targets for each casting. For the first casting, Vaarsuvius targets herself, Blackwing, Durkon, Roy, Belkar, Elan. For the second casting, she targets herself, Blackwing, Durkon, Roy, Haley, Minrah. For the third casting, she targets herself, Blackwing, Belkar, Elan, Haley, Minrah. Now any two of the speaking characters in the party can directly communicate by telepathy, because each pair was covered together by at least one of the three spells. They don't have to indirectly relay messages through some intermediary on two telepathic links, or with any other workaround. You do have to assume is that the characters don't have to repeat what they're thinking twice just to transmit towards both of their own telepathic bonds, and this isn't entirely clear from the spell description, but I think it's a reasonable assumption. You could convince me that someone else rather than Elan was in the first casting based on how the dweomer extends outside of the panel borders (#1220 3rd), but that's irrelevant for this issue, three castings are enough regardless. I will note that you don't even have to assume that Vaarsuvius can target Blackwing for free with this spell, because five targets and three castings is just enough to bond the caster and six more characters together pairwise.

TooSoon: I do understand that some of the posters don't want to allow that Vaarsuvius cast the spell two more times off panel. This is probably an argument about what evidence we accept we won't be able to settle easily. I don't really understand why the off-panel actions in combat scenes is analogous though.

[danielxcutter]

Since there are 5 arrows in the final page, is it safe to assume Serini has a Repeating Crossbow and 5 attacks per round? I guess I'll be paying attention in the next round to whether she has to spend the full round reloading another 5 bolt case. Does 5 attacks per round mean she's at least level 26? Or Level 21+ with Rapid Shot? Or taking a penalty to hit....

Level 21+ with Rapid Shot sounds the most likely to me. Taking a penalty to hit doesn't seem like an intelligent decision in the current situation, and Rich has described the Scribblers as "low epic."

Iterative attacks explicitly only go up based on your BAB up to level 20, so being level 21 or 26 or even 2000 wouldn’t give you a single extra.

Of course, Serini might have a Haste buff going on or the crossbow might have a Speed enchantment. Maybe she has Hand Crossbow Focus as well.

[TooSoon]

Let me expand then. Let's say that Vaarsuvius is a level 16 wizard, so when she casts Telepathic Bond, she targets herself and five other party members. She gets to choose new targets for each casting. For the first casting, Vaarsuvius targets herself, Blackwing, Durkon, Roy, Belkar, Elan. For the second casting, she targets herself, Blackwing, Durkon, Roy, Haley, Minrah. For the third casting, she targets herself, Blackwing, Belkar, Elan, Haley, Minrah. Now any two of the speaking characters in the party can directly communicate by telepathy, because each pair was covered together by at least one of the three spells. They don't have to indirectly relay messages through some intermediary on two telepathic links, or with any other workaround. You do have to assume is that the characters don't have to repeat what they're thinking twice just to transmit towards both of their own telepathic bonds, and this isn't entirely clear from the spell description, but I think it's a reasonable assumption. You could convince me that someone else rather than Elan was in the first casting based on how the dweomer extends outside of the panel borders (#1220 3rd), but that's irrelevant for this issue, three castings are enough regardless. I will note that you don't even have to assume that Vaarsuvius can target Blackwing for free with this spell, because five targets and three castings is just enough to bond the caster and six more characters together pairwise.

TooSoon: I do understand that some of the posters don't want to allow that Vaarsuvius cast the spell two more times off panel. This is probably an argument about what evidence we accept we won't be able to settle easily. I don't really understand why the off-panel actions in combat scenes is analogous though.

I think the issue is that the links conceptually are like 3 different coloured pieces of string, none of which connect with the other pieces. So while V can make multiple links of mind string to connect all the members of the party, making 1 single string which they all communicate on is not possible without being level 17 (or 20 if you want to insist on treating the BW screw up as RAW). Not only do we not see V cast multiple spells, and that alone is enough for me and others to say we should disregard the theory in the circumstances, but casting it multiple times is actually extremely dangerous, because it means you could screw up which link you were using and who is linked to who, so if one person tries to message another not in that link there's a crucial tactical screw up... however V refers to it as though it is a single link, and all of them act as such.

I have also pointed out that if we were to assume "oh there were spells/abilities used that weren't shown on panel" then such reasoning would negate half the stats on this thread. Ok, when we don't see the casting in real time or something, that's one thing, but as far as we are shown on panel this is real time. A made up distinction between "in combat" and "not in combat" is just an attempt to create a justification and working backwards; if we can just invent stuff that didn't happen in the panels in what is apparent real time for non-combat why is combat any different? One of Rich's own examples of "just imagine spells were cast between the panels that you didn't see" happened in combat (he said it when trying to explain anyway the Dorukan fight). We should never assume this unless Rich literally tells us as much, not for stuff that seemingly happens in real time.

[Yanisa]

I have also pointed out that if we were to assume "oh there were spells/abilities used that weren't shown on panel" then such reasoning would negate half the stats on this thread.

What is your opinion on #1202? Durkon is shown to cast 1 Wind Walk, which has the same amount of targets and targets per level as Telepathic Bond. Like me saying V is level 21, Durkon being level 18 is a bit too ridiculous.

Also The Giant even lampshaded off panel buffing (Roach in panel 7). It's already a thing we have to deal with, but speciafally to buff spells. Which Telepathic Bond probably falls under.


I did a "re-write" of V, hopefully summing up most of this discussion.

Spoiler: Vaarsuvius

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Vaarsuvius
True Neutral (forum), High Elf (OOPC) genderqueer (BRITF) Wizard: Evoker (DCF) 16 (+1 caster level from Blackwing's ioun stone), likely 17+ (see note 1).
Str 5-9 (can carry Yukyuk, and strength penalty).
Dex <12 (no real attack bonus on rays, forum).
Con 8-12 (to have enough HP to survive the fight against Xykon; also, lacks a decent con, forum; and lower than Haley).
Int 24 (forum).
Wis 10-11 (moderate, forum).
Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost, and without any charisma).
Age: 131+ (WXP).
Feats: Alertness, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Improved Counterspell, Maximize Spell (SSDT), Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll (wizard bonus feat); no Silent Spell (forum), nor Still Spell.
Skills: Appraise +3 (from familiar), Concentration 12+, Craft: Alchemy, Decipher Script (SSDT), Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Engineering, Knowledge: Religion not high (forum), Ride 0, Spot 0, Search 0, Speak Language: Elven (racial), raven, not draconic (SSDT), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device 2+.
Abilities: Elf racial abilities, familiar: Blackwing, share spells with familiar, scry on familiar, barred schools: Conjuration and Necromancy (forum; also by elimination).
Items: Headband of Intellect +4 (required to cast four 6th level spells with a base int of 18 at level 11), doily, Ring of Wizardry III or IV, two small gemstones, many scrolls and spellbooks, Ring of Protection (WXP), Finding Plot Holes for Dummies, twelve more books, two potions (SSDT), apricot-scented face gel (SSDT), chalice (SSDT), jar of diamond dust, Bleedingham papers, defensive potions, Tarquin's whip.

Spoiler: Spells

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Spells: Arcane Sight, Banishment, Bear's Endurance. Bull's Strength, Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand, Bugsby's Clenched Fist, Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit, Bugsby's Flicking Finger, Bugsby's Grasping Hand, Burning Hands, Chain Lightning, Charm Monster, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Detect Magic, Dimensional Anchor, Dimensional Lock, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Distant Inferno (OOPC), Dominate Person, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Fire Trap, Flamefinger (OOPC), Forcecage, Fly, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility, Gust of Wind, Haste, Heroism, Hold Monster (SSDT), Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Locate Creature, Locate Object, Magic Missile, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Enlarge Person, Mass Suggestion, Mind Blank, Overland Flight usable on others, Owl's Wisdom, Passwall, Polymorph, Power Word Blind, Power Word Stun, Prestidigitation, Prismatic Spray, Protection from Arrows, Ray of Frost, Resilient Sphere, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility, Sending, Shadow Conjuration (to cast Evan's Tentacles, forum), Silent Image a.k.a. Phantasmal Force, Sleep, Stinking Cloud (DCF), Stoneskin, Stone to Flesh, Suggestion, Summon Plot Hole (Supercollider Mash-Up), True Seeing, Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying, Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger, Vampiric Touch, Veil, Wall of Fire, Wall of Force, unspecified polymorph spell, unspecified sonic spell.

Spoiler: Note 1

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Note 1: In comic #1220 V casts the spell Telepahtic Bond. This spells affect the caster and 1 target per 3 levels. In order to affect the entire party (and Minrah) V must have a caster level of 18 and thus likely has a character level 17.
However there are some problems and alternative explanations.
Blackwing is shown to be affected by Telepahtic. Normally familiar can benefit from spells the caster cast on him/herself. But this ability has a range of 5 feet and Blackwing is shown to be talking at greater distances. That would put V's caster level at 21, which is unreasonable high.We currently assume the range is ignored under the "Giant Clause".
Another explanation is that V could have cast multiple Telepathic Bond's offscreen. It would also require at least 3 castings, as you cannot add targets to an existing Telepathic Bond, as everyone can talk with everyone. Also there are other instances in which character affect more characters with a spell then likely. Example include #1220, in which Durkon would need a caster level of 18, which is too high for him. Hence it is possible V cast the spell 3 times and the Giant only showed us once for brevity.
It is also possible that the amount of targets affected by a spell falls under the Giant Clause. Because of amount of times this limit seems to be overwritten.

I also added more to Tarquin, including his weird catch and stab, and the fact Gloves of Arrow Snatching could explain the same scene without require epic. I also added snatch arrow/deflect arrow to this stat block.

Spoiler: Tarquin

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Tarquin
Lawful Evil, Human male Villain (DSTP), level 16+ (unaffected by Holy Word) or likely 21+ (see note 2).
Str 16+ (can carry Nale).
Dex ~9 (no evidence, age), likely 15+ (see note 1) or even dex 25+ (see note 2).
Con ~9 (no evidence, age).
Int, Wis ~11 (no evidence, age).
Cha 16+ (higher than Nale, BRITF).
Age: 51+ (adventuring for 35 years).
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, likely Deflect Arrows (required for Snatch Arrows), likely Snatch Arrows (See note 1), likely combat reflexes (see note 2), likely Infinite Deflection (see note 2).
Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot.
Abilities: Evasion, Counter Charge, Soaring Throw.
Items: helmet, two Rings of Regeneration, Ring of True Seeing, Glamered plate armor, mask that says "Nope" on it, Extra Strength Keoghtum Ointment.

Spoiler: Note 1

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Note 1: In Tarquin #851 catches an arrow and instantly stabs Belkar with. Snatch Arrow which requires Deflect Arrow and 15 dexterity.
However the feat Snatch Arrows doesn't allow for attacks when catching arrows, nor does it allow to attack another target then the original shooter. This could be explained with an attack of opportunity, but that would mean Tarquin has a way to gain AoO against charges, which we currently don't have(?).
Which means it is possible Tarquin is using an different ability then Snatch Arrow. (Like a Sword Sage ability?)
This stab could also fall under the Giant Clause.

Spoiler: Note 2

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Note 2: In #0925 and #0936 Tarquin catches two arrows shot by Haley. The best way to explain this is with the epic feat "Infinite Deflection". Infinite Deflection is a epic feat which requires level 21+, combat reflexes and 25 dexterity. However there are some problems and alternative explanations.
First off, the feat Infinity Deflection doesn't interact with the feat Snatch Arrows. Both feats modify the base feat Deflect Arrows. This can fall under the "Giant Clause".
Catching two arrows might be possible with the magic item Gloves of Arrow Snatching. However 851, 925 and 936 are on the same day. This means Tarquin would need three pairs and swap off panel. Also Tarquin gloves/hands do not glow, whereas normal magic item uses do glow.
Another interpretation is the Giant ignored the fact that "Catch Arrows" has a limit of once per round.

Lastly I "invented" the Giant Clause, so we can kind of put the moments we ignore the rules under the same umbrella. I kinda got tired of writing the giant ignores rules for the sake of story in every case the giant might have ignored a rule for the sake of the story.

Spoiler: The Giant Clause

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The Author of the Story, Rich Burlew, also known on this forum as the Giant, has stated multiple times he does not care about the rules of D&D when it interferes wit telling story. [Citation Needed]. Because of this we are sometimes confronted by things we cannot explain completely by using the D&D 3.5 rule set. When it comes to rather minute details, like a obscure sub-rule or the interaction of multiple feats, we assume the Giant ignored a rule to make a better story.

So is this the way forward so we can prevent repeating discussions and omit things that we cannot explain? Or does this make entries to bloated with unsurities and distractions?

[danielxcutter]

So nobody's interested in what I wrote about Tarquin? Okay.

[Metastachydium]

Swordsages get their Wisdom to AC. That'd explain why he's ridiculously hard to hit if he starts going full on Total Defense, which happened in the first half of his fight with Elan as well as that other general from the Free City of Doom. (…)
Charging Minotaur could be used to explain Tarquin managing to Bull Rush Haley out the window, one of the Mountain Hammer maneuvers for breaking things, and we already have some listed in his statblock already.

Those are less than compelling arguments (I have some difficulty seeing his armour as light; given some of the feats he has Evasion can be explained away as a two level dip in Monk and (correct me if I'm wrong but) warblades can use Stone Dragon stuff just fine (also, warblade would resonate well with the morbid amount of hp he seems to have)); that said

• Has good Reflex and Will saves (…)
• We have the throw listed as Comet Throw, but it fits Ballista Throw much better; as it involves "spinning like a top". Oh, and unless Tarquin's at least level 22, he's not learning that from a feat or item.
• Swordsages only have medium BAB. Have you ever seen him make more than three attacks per turn?

these are convincing points indeed, or at any rate good enough with a likely clause.

[TooSoon]

Wind Walk cuts away to a wide lens angle, giving the impression of "before and after" to my eyes, so while it looks somewhat continuous there's more scope to imagine an additional casting took place. In the case of Telepathic Bond the panel stays on V and appears real time. In addition there is no mechanical issue with Durkon casting Wind Walk multiple times; a telepathic bond, as I explained with my string analogy, doesn't work that way. Lastly, level 18 was clearly implausible for Durkon at that time, whereas level 17 is exactly what we should be expecting from V. I don't even think we need to provide a "likely" qualifier to V's being level 17, the proof for it is far greater than some of the other proofs used for establishing level (e.g. attack per round), but if people want to argue for V to be level 20 I'll go with that instead as also plausible. Whether V is listed as "17+" or "17-20" is fine with me.

NB - I do think Tarquin is likely a sword sage, and don't mind a note being added to reflect that.

[dancrilis]

Wind Walk cuts away to a wide lens angle, giving the impression of "before and after" to my eyes, so while it looks somewhat continuous there's more scope to imagine an additional casting took place. In the case of Telepathic Bond the panel stays on V and appears real time. In addition there is no mechanical issue with Durkon casting Wind Walk multiple times; a telepathic bond, as I explained with my string analogy, doesn't work that way. Lastly, level 18 was clearly implausible for Durkon at that time, whereas level 17 is exactly what we should be expecting from V. I don't even think we need to provide a "likely" qualifier to V's being level 17, the proof for it is far greater than some of the other proofs used for establishing level (e.g. attack per round), but if people want to argue for V to be level 20 I'll go with that instead as also plausible. Whether V is listed as "17+" or "17-20" is fine with me.

NB - I do think Tarquin is likely a sword sage, and don't mind a note being added to reflect that.

As mentioned Pious Spellsurge would allow them to have a caster level of 21 for that spell while being level 16 - it is a single feat and a pretty solid choice for one providing your DM is ok about faith points.

For attacks per round as mentioned we don't seem to be using them for Roy or Belkar.

As for expecting Vaarsuvius to be level 17, we know that The Giant doesn't want Vaarsuvius to overshadow the rest of the party and has removed them from many experience gaining encounters and we also know that Vaarsuvius seems to be the only member of the order to actually use XP for crafting - based on this we could not expect them to be a higher level the the rest of the party.

[TooSoon]

As mentioned Pious Spellsurge would allow them to have a caster level of 21 for that spell while being level 16 - it is a single feat and a pretty solid choice for one providing your DM is ok about faith points.

For attacks per round as mentioned we don't seem to be using them for Roy or Belkar.

As for expecting Vaarsuvius to be level 17, we know that The Giant doesn't want Vaarsuvius to overshadow the rest of the party and has removed them from many experience gaining encounters and we also know that Vaarsuvius seems to be the only member of the order to actually use XP for crafting - based on this we could not expect them to be a higher level the the rest of the party.

There is absolutely no evidence V has that, and in addition when bolstering feats are used we usually get them in the casting, e.g. "quickened fireball". We can negate a lot of stuff in this thread by saying "hey this obscure thing could be in effect", but we should go by Occam's razor. Heck, we could invalidate V's past level proofs too by saying "oh they just had an oscure way to increase their caster level, so that doesn't count". The standard of proof required can't shift based on convenience. If Occam's razor was enough in other proofs, like V being ranked level 16 to begin with, it should also be enough here.

We absolutely have used attacks per round to peg Roy and Belkar's levels in the past, which in turn has allowed them to get their current estimates (and which exists still in the records of this thread). We have also used it for Hayley and others too. We know V has been due to hit level 17 any day now (or rather to prove they have hit it), it's exactly what we should expect.

[dancrilis]

There is absolutely no evidence V has that, and in addition when bolstering feats are used we usually get them in the casting, e.g. "quickened fireball". We can negate a lot of stuff in this thread by saying "hey this obscure thing could be in effect", but we should go by Occam's razor.

There is no evidence they don't have it either - and a single feat seems an easier explanation then 4 additional levels - it is not a metamagic feat there is no reason to assume that the metamagic phrasing would be used for it.

We absolutely have used attacks per round to peg Roy and Belkar's levels in the past, which in turn has allowed them to get their current estimates (and which exists still in the records of this thread). We have also used it for Hayley and others too. We know V has been due to hit level 17 any day now (or rather to prove they have hit it), it's exactly what we should expect.

As mentioned Roy seems to make 4 attacks here, and Belkar 7 here which is what we would expect if they are level 16 (a lower level then you want to bring Vaarsuvius too) yet Belkar is still listed as level 15 and Roy at level 14+.
So where attacks have been used on occassion they have not been taken as evidence to improve someones level higher then level 15 (for Haley) to memory.

[Ortho]

The more I hear these arguments, the more I'm convinced that there's a homebrew rule in place that says "if a spell cast by a party member would affect most but not all of the party, it affects the whole party instead, because the Giant doesn't want to waste several panels showing the same spell cast multiple times when there's no narrative reason to".

[danielxcutter]

The more I hear these arguments, the more I'm convinced that there's a homebrew rule in place that says "if a spell cast by a party member would affect most but not all of the party, it affects the whole party instead, because the Giant doesn't want to waste several panels showing the same spell cast multiple times when there's no narrative reason to".

Personally same.

[Peelee]

IMO it's obvious; same thing with Shojo's wizard who teleport Ed the whole party when it's should be one person per three levels, and wasn't touching them, which would mean Metamagic (Reach, IIRC), putting him at epic level.

Or mid-level and not caring what the specific text is because the story is more important.

[Metastachydium]

we should go by Occam's razor

…and come to the conclusion that the Giant simply doesn't care enough to have checked, as others have pointed out, since we have it on good authority (his, to be very specific) that he usually doesn't. This is the simplest answer.
Now, I understand the desire to find ways in which what we see in the comic could actually work as we see it. I mean, what use is trying to update this thread if everything short of an explicit namedrop can be handwaved away with ease? However, the idea that V somehow has 3 to 5 levels on the rest of the party despite the fact that they are often absent when the rest of the party does things that net XP for them is neither likely, nor plausible. It simply doesn't make sense. Accordingly, I think what dancrilis proposes is a reasonable compromise: it's neither a handwave, nor a next to impossible assumption. If anything labeled likely ends up in V's statblock to explain the thing with the bond, it should be the feat rather than the idea that V (and V alone) is somehow near-epic.

[b_jonas]

I have also pointed out that if we were to assume "oh there were spells/abilities used that weren't shown on panel" then such reasoning would negate half the stats on this thread.

Sometimes yes. If you just assumed that the player charters got ultra-powerful buffs from items off panel, that would lead to that. But here it's just a case of casting the same spell multiple times because they have a large party.

[url=https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0683.html]#683 second panel involves Durkon having cast protection from the elements five times, on five party members. You usually don't want to see such repetition on screen, because it was boring. But we know that he cast it five times, because the dialog tells us that. #1202 is a more recent example. Durkon says “Wind Walk” on panel once. He can't target himself and six other party members with one casting, because that would require spell level 18. All seven party members end up affected. Nobody is trying to argue that Durkon still has 18 levels of Priest, after he lost two levels from resurrection. We just assume that Durkon or Minrah cast the spell a second time off panel. Or take As an extreme example, #429 for example. Do you think each individual cut that Belkar makes to a hobgoblin is shown on panel there? No, he just did some more cuts between the panels, and killed all those hobgoblins in the pile.

Here in #1220, Vaarsuvius explains that he has a spell to make telepathic links between the party members, then we see that all eight speaking party members are affected, so we just assume that she may have cast the spell three times if necessary.

Yanisa: I don't think we need all that explanation in the first posts. If we tried to put everything there, we'd end up with very long posts and run out of length limits. Instead just link to a summary in a forum post, such as in your post, and say “Wizard: Evoker (DCF) 16 (+1 caster level from Blackwing's ioun stone), likely 17+ (Telepathic Bond with six other targets)”. The same applies to your other notes, don't inline them.

Also you have a typo in that summary, “#1220, in which Durkon would need a caster level of 18” has the wrong strip number.

In the case of Telepathic Bond the panel stays on V and appears real time.

That's not my impression. In #1219 and #1220 the characters are moving around and shuffling places with each other in a way that'd be hard in a standard 6 foot wide tunnel if very little time passed between the panels.

mjp1050, Peelee: again, the Giant doesn't care about the exact levels and won't follow the rules. It doesn't matter. This Geekery thread is about overanalyzing the comic and explaining it in the framework of the rules, no matter what the Giant thinks.

[Peelee]

mjp1050, Peelee: again, the Giant doesn't care about the exact levels and won't follow the rules. It doesn't matter. This Geekery thread is about overanalyzing the comic and explaining it in the framework of the rules, no matter what the Giant thinks.

I'm aware and I agree; I specifically wordes my reply there to not adovate for "and that should be reflected in the stats here."

[TooSoon]

I think all this talk of how Rich handwaves rules is missing the point of the thread; which is that we are working on the assumption the rules are not handwaved, unless there is compelling reason to believe so. Durkon being level 18 didn't fit. V being level 17 fits. We know V was level 16 immediately prior to this latest quest. In fact V proved level 16 in comic 935, per this thread, and the start of the day that happened began almost 100 comics earlier. In that time V had adventures in the pyramid, fought Tarquin's buddies and army, battled Frost giants, and defeated a horde of Vampires whose CR alone should have been sufficient to level from defeating. It exactly fits, and the explanation of casting multiple Telepathic Bonds (aside from being unshown) doesn't work, because of the string analogy I provided earlier. No matter how many times you cast it 1 person is still left out of each casting, which prevents clear unified communication between them. The only hiccup is BW, which is assumedly Rich screwing up the rules. Of course if people want to be rules lawyers I'll happily argue for Durkon to be 18 and V to be 20, but I'm trying to take a balanced approach, not handwave everything (which we could do to most of the stuff on this thread with "well, you can't prove a negative" type reasoning).

We should be handwaving the least amount of rules possible. Handwaving the BW aspect of the spell being screwed up does that. Handwaving the entire spell does not.

[Peelee]

I think all this talk of how Rich handwaves rules is missing the point of the thread; which is that we are working on the assumption the rules are not handwaved, unless there is compelling reason to believe so.

[snip]

The only hiccup is BW, which is assumedly Rich screwing up the rules
.

Snipping mine.

I agree that we should work on the assumption that files are not handwaved, and Blackwing can easily be handled by Metamagic.

[TooSoon]

Snipping mine.

I agree that we should work on the assumption that files are not handwaved, and Blackwing can easily be handled by Metamagic.

If you're talking about Pious Spellsurge, here are the problems with that:
1) We have no indication V has it
2) Nobody is using it as an explanation for how V performed earlier feats, nobody is suggesting we invalidate Vs earlier level calculations by using it, nobody is suggesting we do the same to any other caster whose levels were calculated based on CL. It is only being wheeled out for this one selective instance to try and create a results based "can't prove a negative" moving strawman.
3) Usually bolstering of spells is indicated with a word, and while it may or may not be metamagic I would expect to see "Telepathic Bond Spellsurge" uttered to reflect the enhancement of the spell.
4) I wasn't even aware Pious Spellsurge applied to Wizards. I know of a cleric version, that requires "faith points", which we have no indication V even has either, and a sorcerer version, but what is this obscure Wizard version of Pious Spellsurge?

If we grant this as a justification to negate V being level 17, we would by the same logic need to go back and negate all the other CL based calculations. Of course nobody is advocating for that, because nobody really believes it. We should assume Occam's razor for how things work RAW, and not try and force posters to prove a negative about obscure and unseen abilities/items.

[Peelee]

If you're talking about Pious Spellsurge, here are the problems with that:
1) We have no indication V has it
2) Nobody is using it as an explanation for how V performed earlier feats, nobody is suggesting we invalidate Vs earlier level calculations by using it, nobody is suggesting we do the same to any other caster whose levels were calculated based on CL. It is only being wheeled out for this one selective instance to try and create a results based "can't prove a negative" moving strawman.
3) Usually bolstering of spells is indicated with a word, and while it may or may not be metamagic I would expect to see "Telepathic Bond Spellsurge" uttered to reflect the enhancement of the spell.
4) I wasn't even aware Pious Spellsurge applied to Wizards. I know of a cleric version, that requires "faith points", which we have no indication V even has either, and a sorcerer version, but what is this obscure Wizard version of Pious Spellsurge?

If we grant this as a justification to negate V being level 17, we would by the same logic need to go back and negate all the other CL based calculations. Of course nobody is advocating for that, because nobody really believes it. We should assume Occam's razor for how things work RAW, and not try and force posters to prove a negative about obscure and unseen abilities/items.

Would Enlarge Spell not increase the range needed?

[TooSoon]

Would Enlarge Spell not increase the range needed?

That's explicitly metamagic, which is explicitly mentioned in casting when used, so it should have read "Enlarged Telepathic Bond". The fact that there might be instances where the Giant didn't do this falls into the same argument we all agree can't be applied; we all agree that unless there is clear evidence to the contrary the prima facie application of the rules should be applied consistently. In the comics metamagic is consistently indicated in the spell name when the spell is used. It would run into the same problem as above, namely that we could invalidate every CL based stat by saying "maybe metamagic was used and for some reason Rich didn't indicate it". Enlarge spell also doesn't resolve anything, but I'm not getting into that because the above points make it moot.

[Jasdoif]

I wasn't even aware Pious Spellsurge applied to Wizards. I know of a cleric version, that requires "faith points"....

Faith feats aren't restricted to clerics (I daresay being widely available is the primary point of their existence, encouraging non-clerics to play their religion).

Would Enlarge Spell not increase the range needed?

Aside from the fact that Enlarge Spell wouldn't do anything meaningful here (as it wouldn't affect the "all within 30 feet" part of the target clause), I believe the range in question here is that of share spells (which would mean Blackwing is included for free since the spell affects Vaarsuvius, unless Blackwing moves more than five feet away).

[Peelee]

That's explicitly metamagic

Yes, which is why I said, "I agree that we should work on the assumption that files are not handwaved, and Blackwing can easily be handled by Metamagic." This should not have been a point of confusion.

which is explicitly mentioned in casting when used

Not Silent Spell, which can be used in conjunction with Enlarge Spell. Of course, V would then simply say the name of the spell anyway, but that is simply a personal choice.

[Yanisa]

I believe the range in question here is that of share spells (which would mean Blackwing is included for free since the spell affects Vaarsuvius, unless Blackwing moves more than five feet away).

Yeah, that is the issue. A minor rule in the share familiar ability, which already are sub rules of the familiar ability, that is easily overlooked and often forgotten.

If we assume the rules aren't broken, then we must see Blackwing as a target. Which is why we get caster level 21, which is 4 caster levels difference since the last confirmed caster level. Which is a unreasonable jump.

Pious Spellsurge could explain it, but it doesn't fit V at all. She isn't Pious and in Complete Divine it even states "faith feats impose significant constraints on character behavior", we should have seen some evidence. You basically need to do religious quests and preach on every street corner to be pious enough for Complete Divine.
Besides that it's a roll, and rather high one (at least a 4), in order to reach caster level 21. It would be awkward in 50% of the cases she rolled to low. Also we generally assume lowest possible roll when it comes to these roll bases variants.

And then we get what I said earlier, we cannot both adhere to the story and the rules as written. Thus we cannot conclude anything.

[dancrilis]

Pious Spellsurge could explain it, but it doesn't fit V at all. She isn't Pious and in Complete Divine it even states "faith feats impose significant constraints on character behavior", we should have seen some evidence. You basically need to do religious quests and preach on every street corner to be pious enough for Complete Divine.

I wouldn't be inclined to include it either it is merely one possible explanation to get to a caster level of 21, (there is also a series of unlikely multiclassing which I believe could generate a caster level of 21 at less then level 17).

However in relation to Vaarsuvius's piousness.
Vaarsuvius: I worship the ancient elven god of knowledge, keeper of secrets so mighty that even the smallest taste of them would shatter your sanity! My devotion to his arcane mysteries is absolute! I shall never renounce him! Never! Do you hear me? NEVER! NEVER!

Vaarsuvius has lived a long time by human standards and one doesn't lose faith points after they are gained as far as I know unless they are spent - they could have accumulated a lot before the story began, and due ot there deity being a deity of secrets we might not even know when they are engaged in worship and when they are not - they do look down on clerical magic but clerical magic has nothing to do with Vaarsuvius's devotion to their deity (who perhaps also frowns on clerics for all we know).

[Yanisa]

Being religious, or even strongly religious, doesn't mean being able to gain faith points, according to Complete Divine. I would even argue Durkon wouldn't fit the bill for the Pious feats, despite him being on speaking terms with his god. Faith points are gained from religious quests, expending religious power, or preventing rivals from gaining religious power. Or a philosophy instead of religion, just to add that.
It requires a level of zealotry we don't see in V, or Durkon.

The only character in comic that might fit pious is Redcloak.

Faith Feats are on the powerful side, and I guess the strong roleplay is prevent them from every player taking them. It falls in the bad game mechanics where power is balanced by not being fun to use.

[Reboot]

I wouldn't be inclined to include it either it is merely one possible explanation to get to a caster level of 21, (there is also a series of unlikely multiclassing which I believe could generate a caster level of 21 at less then level 17).

We know V's caster level, including the boost from Blackwing's ioun anklet, was precisely 17 as of #1102 (Forcecage is 2 hrs/caster level). It seems deeply unlikely that they have boosted their caster level by four whole levels since then.

[Yanisa]

We know V's caster level, including the boost from Blackwing's ioun anklet, was precisely 17 as of #1102 (Forcecage is 2 hrs/caster level). It seems deeply unlikely that they have boosted their caster level by four whole levels since then.

We knew V's caster level. If we assume all rules are in place then V demonstrates a new highest caster level of 21 in #1220, 118 comics later. Telepathic Bond affect the caster + 1 character per 3 caster levels. In order to hit the 5 other member of the order, Minrah and Blackwing, V needs a caster level of 21 (7*3). Blackwing cannot be treated as free by the share spell familiar ability because he keeps the spell even when he more then 5 feet away from V.

The fact it is unlikely (I daresay impossible by story logic) is the cause of all the discussion.

Spoiler: Sum up of explantions

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The dilemma: Telepathic Bond affect the caster + 1 character per 3 caster levels. In order to hit the 5 other member of the order, Minrah and Blackwing, V needs a caster level of 21 (7*3).
Blackwing cannot be treated as free by the share spell familiar ability because he keeps the spell even when he more then 5 feet away from V.

Five ways we can explain this:

1) No rules are broken, everything on panel. V affect 7 targets and has a caster level of 21. This leads to V having a character level of 20 and V has leveled up a lot since #1102.

2) No rules are broken, certain abilities/feats/magic items are not visible on panel. V is character level 16 and found a new way to increase caster level 21.

3) No rules are broken, but more buffing happens off panel. V requires a minimum of caster level 15, which V already has, and has cast multiple telepathic bonds.

4) One rule is broken, Blackwing keeps the spell despite moving 5 feet away from V. Everything else is on panel. V affect 6 targets and has a caster level of 18. This implies V has leveled up once since #1102 to level 17.

5) One rule is broken, the amount of targets affected by a buff spell. V caster and character level cannot be determined from this spell.

Or a combination of the above, to make it more complex.

Spoiler: Sum up of theories

Show

This larger actions has some of the more relevant in-depth posts about certain explanations. If you want even more, just check the post in it's orginal context.

1+2+3: In order to keep the buff to a single action, V cast Twinned Telepathic Bond using a 9th level slot. This requires V to be level 17 for the 9th level spell slot.

That the spell can be dismissed is different. V said it would last 34 hours. The entry for Forcecage in the SRD does not give the option for setting a shorter time. It's 2 hours per caster level, ergo V has a caster level of 17 in #1102, being level 16 and getting +1 caster level from the transmogrified Ioun Stone. V has had earned significant XP since then so is quite possibly now level 17 with caster level 18. I discount any possibility of V being higher level as there has not been sufficient time.

And V covering everyone with the Telepathic Bond can be explained with a Twinned Telepathic Bond. It is entirely possible that V's spell book does not contain any 9th level spells or that the 9th level spells it does contain - Wish comes to mind - require XP that V currently does not have.

But V does not need a 9th level slot with the Arcane Thesis feat for Telepathic Bond. This cuts the metamagic cost by 1 level and gives +2 caster level to boot (these are unnamed bonuses so stack). So V could cast a Twinned Telepathic Bond with a level 8 slot at CL 20, but only needs another +1 caster level from somewhere to cover everyone with a normal un-twinned spell. I wonder if there were any items from the fight with the giants that might fit?

2: Increasing caster level; Feat Pious Spellsurge or unknown magic items, like we have used for Tsukiko

As mentioned Pious Spellsurge would allow them to have a caster level of 21 for that spell while being level 16 - it is a single feat and a pretty solid choice for one providing your DM is ok about faith points.

Tsukiko (deceased)
Items: Spellbook (wizard feature), item that boosts caster level (to teleport six wights)

3: A complex weave of three Telepathic Bonds are cast to allow everyone to talk with everyone.

The arguement isn't that they are speaking to people on a seperate bond it is that they are speaking to people they are bonded to.

Here:
Bond 1: Vaarsuvius, Blackwing, Roy, Haley, Elan, Belkar
Bond 2: Vaarsuvius, Blackwing, Roy, Haley, Durkon, Minrah
Bond 3: Vaarsuvius, Blackwing, Elan, Durkon, Minrah, Belkar

The only way this wouldn't work is if you claim that you can only speak to everyone on one bond at one rather then two - and we have no reason to think that.

Theory 4; why we should ignore familiar rules

It rarely happens. The one time we have seen Blackwing get the buff from a spell where we could prove the distance limit applies or not was in the desert when they were searching for Girard's Gate with the false co-ordinates. Blackwing is seen earlier getting included in a True Seeing spell V casts on himself, yet flagrantly disregards the distance limit during the search. After the Pyramid explodes and V awakens he casts stoneskin on himself, with that benefit extending over to BW. We never see BW take a hit, so we have no idea if stoneskin was still in effect, but BW definitely moves more than 5 feets away from V during the following sequence; which is weird, because why would you do that if you lose the buff by doing so?

On the whole abilities used by familiars are one of the least rules consistent things shown in the comic. Beyond the fact that distance limits have a 100% negative rate so far in the comic, we also see things that make little sense such as:
- BW popping up out of nowhere after having been absent during V's adventures (how?)
- BW apparently not knowing he was about to eat V during V's time as a lizard, despite the fact that as his familiar the two share a psychic link
- BW being pulled into Hell as a "bogo" (definitely not in the rules)
- Z having an Imp familiar, in clear defiance of the rules
- Girard and Xykon apparently not having familiars, though this can be explained easily enough.

The author seems to homebrew familiars to a large degree in the comic. I feel confident in saying the distance limits can be taken not to apply, since all the evidence so far suggests the author is handwaving them for the plot.

On the other hand, CL limits do generally apply.

Theory 5; why we should ignore (certain) spells.

All cases so far relate to spells that affect 1 character per 3 caster levels. It's one of those weird patterns I noticed.

We have
Shojo's wizard (Twice, edit: twice after)
Tsukiko teleport.
Durkon Windwalk.
And the much debated V Telepathic Bond.

All cases also deal with exactly 7 creatures. Caster level 18 for the teleport or 21 for the buff spells. All a bit more unreasonable high then we give these character. The wizard and Tsukiko are estimated at around 14. Durkon was 13 at the time and V is 16+.
Out of said examples, it's Tsukiko who got the item that increases caster level, Shojo's Wizard got a teleport specific prestige class and Durkon got a off-panel casting. Thrice the same problem, thrice a different solution.

And although I keep interacting with the discussion itself, we are also trying to have a meta discussion about how we deal with this kinds of problems. Currently these stalements prevent us from adding anything to characters. I saw that adding giant blobs of theories wasn't too liked, although it being my preference (and I keep trying to get it more condense). But I get having the statblocks as simple as possible. At the same time a simple description to V's statblock doesn't seem just when it causes this much discussion and confusion. Especially when we consider the most literal scenario is also the most unlikely scenario of V gaining 4 level in 118 comics.

So any more meta input?