OOTS #886 - The Discussion Thread

[shamgar001]

I was looking for an eye patch last comic, and assumed Redcloak's head being out of view was the "tell" that this was an illusion. I can see why he got it, to throw readers like me, but at the same time there is no logical reason the Order would think he had an eye patch (wrong eye or not), since none of them have seen Redcloak with an eye patch, and the illusion is assumedly getting the images from the minds of the 4 members of the OOTS.

EDIT- missed the reply. Eh, if you say so.

If they had seen Redcloak with his eye, it would have just meant that made the assumption that he regenerated it himself. Either way is equally logical, and them assuming the eyepatch makes for a better story.

[Sith_Happens]

EDIT- I also notice that the Giant puts Redcloak in a forcecage, and Xykon tries to Superb Dispel it, which shouldn't work (but if he hadn't been disrupted, we would have evidence for whether Superb Dispelling has a homebrew function in the comic that lets it dispel forcecage).

Not a houserule. The Dispel seed cares not for your "can't be dispelled" clauses. In fact, it even works on (Su).

[thereaper]

I didn't realize the eyepatch was on the wrong eye, but I was pretty much certain it was an illusion by the second panel. Things were just moving way too fast.

But if things had gone on more for more than a page or so, we would have felt jipped when it turned out to be an illusion, so this was really the best way for it to go.

[oppyu]

Holy everloving crap. Giant you brilliant bastard. I'm sorry if I'm cursing more than this forum generally allows, but... hooooooly crap.

Also, the 'there's no way this is an illusion you foolish epileptic tree-huggers' crowd? Suck it.

[LightPhoenix]

That was a neat bit of storytelling explaining how the Order is still a threat, how the Order can beat Xykon, and yet still be a fake-out. The next time they fight him, I'm willing to bet this is how it goes before complications set in.i

[Spleen_]

Also, if I may say, it's so adorable that Roy hallucinates Xykon calling him by name. He really wants the guy to acknowledge him, doesn't he?

[treyh37]

this comic also makes you wonder how much of 885 happened as well (ie when did the runes activate)

although the party order suggests its the second to last panel in 885

[Babale]

Why would Roy think that Redcloak grew his eye back? All he knows is that he had his eye poked out. Since that missing eye has no ingame effect, he probably never gave it thought again and didn't stop to consider whether Redcloak would regenerate it or not. Also, notice that not only is the eyepatch on the wrong eye, but the phylactery is wrong. Redcloak has a square shaped holy symbol now.

[Mage Paradox]

1) I went back and checked. Obviously it's the Giant's comic, and he can write whatever he wants. But we all make mistakes, and in this instance he has made a mistake. Elan, V and Durkon all see Redcloak cast disintegrate on Hinjo (a 7th level spell), so they would have known he was of a sufficiently high level to use regeneration. In addition I'm not sure what level of summoning he needed for that Kraken, but I'm thinking that would be pretty high too. EDIT- and on checking it is also level 7, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVII.htm
2) No, the regular rules do not allow Superb Dispelling to dispel forcecage. If Rich wants to let it work in his comic, that's his business. I am just explaining that the regular rules simply don't support it, something others have also backed up.

[Chess Tyrant]

Phew. For a moment there, I thought Rich had written the comic while drunk or something...

[ghoul-n]

Started reading OOTS when it was like in it's 200-ish.

First time ever I have an urge to tell some unrelated person about all this.

[Kokomo]

I'm not sure how Redcloak's eyepatch (wrong eye/Right-Eye or not) is explained if the illusion is drawn from their memories -- perhaps were they informed of Redcloak's change in physical appearance through the Resistance-Hinjo-Order Sending network (as well as Vaarsuvius and O-chul's original accounts of how he lost it), offscreen? And if that's the case, and they should also know that Redcloak is using the new amulet, they may also be assuming that if Redcloak and Xykon were in the ziggurat at all at this point, they'd have already found the phylactery and Redcloak would have re-introduced the old amulet/phylactery back into his attire, rather than sticking with the new square one? The Order wouldn't know about the spat they had regarding that.

These are some big jumps I'm making about the Order's knowledge, though. If it's Girard-crafted, the spell may be Epic and work in an entirely different way.

Also, if I may say, it's so adorable that Roy hallucinates Xykon calling him by name. He really wants the guy to acknowledge him, doesn't he?

Hah! Great catch. And his last word, at that.

[rgd20]

Given Belkar "died" I wonder what his illusion is feeding him?

Bob

[Craft (Cheese)]

That was a bit of a cheat. I saw Redcloak with the eye patch, and thought it might actually be real after all. Then it's an illusion, just like I speculated in advance. How can the illusion show Redcloak in a state that the order has never seen him in? I guess the Giant figured it'd take all the drama out of the fight if we knew it was an illusion all along.

I figured that the spell is capable of gathering information from the real world, not just the stuff in the target's mind. Epic magic can probably do that.

[Starwulf]

Looks like all the people who suspected the runes were casting an illusion and that Xykon wasn't actually there were in fact correct. Very nice twist. Shame it really didn't happen though, would have been a pretty epic way to beat down Xykon for a little while(until he regenerates at his phylactery).

[Ast]

@ Mage Paradaox:

The thing with superd dispelling is not that simple. The discussion about the rules it uses is ancient. The fact that for some reason the EXAMPLE of a spell called Super Dispelling listed in SRD/ELH simply states it works like Dispel Magic doesn't change two facts:

1) It's based on the Dispel Seed which contradicts your statement and therefore
2) It's literally IMPOSSIBLE to make a Superb Dispelling spell that doesn't dispel Forcecage without using house rules.

[Anteros]

1) I went back and checked. Obviously it's the Giant's comic, and he can write whatever he wants. But we all make mistakes, and in this instance he has made a mistake. Elan, V and Durkon all see Redcloak cast disintegrate on Hinjo (a 7th level spell), so they would have known he was of a sufficiently high level to use regeneration. In addition I'm not sure what level of summoning he needed for that Kraken, but I'm thinking that would be pretty high too. EDIT- and on checking it is also level 7, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVII.htm
2) No, the regular rules do not allow Superb Dispelling to dispel forcecage. If Rich wants to let it work in his comic, that's his business. I am just explaining that the regular rules simply don't support it, something others have also backed up.

What makes you think that Roy, Elan, and Haley even have the cleric's spell list memorized in the first place? All they know is that he got his eye poked out because their friend told them so. They almost certainly don't know how an epic spell like superb dispelling would work. Considering that everything they are seeing is an illusion based on the character's perception...rules lawyering is even less useful than usual.

There are a lot of options here. Claiming that the author made a mistake simply because it doesn't match up with your personal interpretation is obnoxious.

[The Giant]

1) I went back and checked. Obviously it's the Giant's comic, and he can write whatever he wants. But we all make mistakes, and in this instance he has made a mistake. Elan, V and Durkon all see Redcloak cast disintegrate on Hinjo (a 7th level spell), so they would have known he was of a sufficiently high level to use regeneration. In addition I'm not sure what level of summoning he needed for that Kraken, but I'm thinking that would be pretty high too.

First, it's a 6th level Wizard spell. Now, who, of the four characters here, do you think has enough ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to know that the spell is a higher level for clerics using it from the Destruction domain than it is for Vaarsuvius, their teammate, who uses it all the time? (Answer: None of them.)

And second, don't tell me I made a mistake in my own comic. I could not give one good goddamn what the rules say about anything. There are no mistakes, because there are no rules. NONE. No, not even that one. Further, I do not care what you think is a "reasonable" assumption for them to have made. This is the assumption they DID make. Period. End of discussion.

[adulus]

Alright, the runes show the victims what they want to see. Either it takes a few rounds of perception checks to work or it gets activated by a trigger. So, in Roy's case, they stop fooling around with the LG and suddenly fight Xykon and Roy heroically takes Xykon out singlehandedly, while losing the one member of his team he both wanted and expected to die anyway.

Haley is probably seeing a vision of Durkula being devamped then blowing the gates and thwarting Xykon before running off with Elan to shtoink like bunnies. Elan is probably seeing Roy congratulating him and finally acknowledging that they couldn't have beaten Xykon without him, before running off with Haley to shtoink like bunnies.

Belkar is a bit tougher. He's probably getting to take out Durkon himself, then retiring at a ripe old age with the cat to enjoy more milk, woman and gold than he knows what to do with.

[Mage Paradox]

@ Mage Paradaox:

The thing with superd dispelling is not that simple. The discussion about the rules it uses is ancient. The fact that for some reason the EXAMPLE of a spell called Super Dispelling listed in SRD/ELH simply states it works like Dispel Magic doesn't change two facts:

1) It's based on the Dispel Seed which contradicts your statement and therefore
2) It's literally IMPOSSIBLE to make a Superb Dispelling spell that doesn't dispel Forcecage without using house rules.

That's simply not true. This post explains it well:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=94

[Wonton]

Wow, I almost had a heart attack when Belkar and Xykon both died in the course of two pages. I was thinking "no way, Belkar's death deserves at least a 10-page lead-up, and Xykon's should get at least fifty!". Then I got to the last panel...

and didn't understand what had happened, so I came to the forums and now I get it. :P

By the way, Xykon saying Roy's name was a nice touch.

P.S. Now that I've read it the second time, the illusion sequence gets progressively more purple-hued as the comic goes along. Subtle, but effective. Well done, Giant.

P.P.S. Mr. Scruffy dying in the 8th panel may be the saddest thing ever.

[DaggerPen]

Ha! Oh man, when I saw he had the eyepatch I was sure they were real after all, but nope! Well played, Rich. Well played.

In retrospect, missing Blackwing should have been the giveaway. Everyone forgets about V's familiar, so of course the Order did.

[Lost]

So is Mr Scruffy under the effects of the illusion as well?

[JessmanCA]

The runes actually activate inbetween panels 4 and 5 of 886. Note the pallette swap at that point. So they are actually fighting Xykon, but Belkar isn't dead.

I wonder: is Xykon under the effect of the runes too?

[Wonton]

The runes actually activate inbetween panels 4 and 5 of 886. Note the pallette swap at that point. So they are actually fighting Xykon, but Belkar isn't dead.

I wonder: is Xykon under the effect of the runes too?

It's not really a palette swap, the whole comic just gets slightly more purple-ish with each panel. Compare the colour of Roy's face in panel 6 with the colour of his face as he kills Xykon.

[rodneyAnonymous]

They also think Vaarsuvius is undamaged.

[Kolero]

The eye-patch on the wrong eye was pretty brilliant. I'd never notice it without being told because I am so used to seeing sprites flipped.

So, I guess the fake Redcloak is the true wrong-eye.

I have to give props to the giant. While I was reading the dialogue, I had a feeling something was amiss. The illusory Xykon and Redcloak just don't have the same "voice" as the real ones. RC in particular talks just like he did in the dungeon of Dorukan, which makes since because the Order hasn't had much face-to-face contact with him since then. That didn't stop me from audibly gasping at Belkar's and then Xykno's death before the reveal.

I'm left puzzled what the fake RC was referring to when he says that Xykon "already used that line" though.

[Mage Paradox]

What makes you think that Roy, Elan, and Haley even have the cleric's spell list memorized in the first place? All they know is that he got his eye poked out because their friend told them so. They almost certainly don't know how an epic spell like superb dispelling would work. Considering that everything they are seeing is an illusion based on the character's perception...rules lawyering is even less useful than usual.

There are a lot of options here. Claiming that the author made a mistake simply because it doesn't match up with your personal interpretation is obnoxious.

The Author responded to my initial remark about how it "seems like an error" by saying that the Order do not have any idea Redcloak is able to cast level 7 Cleric Spells. Redcloak has cast two level 7 Cleric spells in front of them though (one of which is in the general Cleric pool, not the Destruction Domain), so the remark the author made in response to my post technically was wrong, in the sense that the order have as much reason to think Redcloak is able to cast level 7 spells as they do to think he's missing an eye. Like I said, it's his comic, he can give whatever explanation he likes. I suspect when he wrote his reply he had simply forgotten those 2 instances.

[Ast]

That's simply not true. This post explains it well:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=94

It doesn't explain two things: 1) why it has correct Spellcraft DC for a Dispel Seed and 2) where is the mitigating factor for not having all the features of a Dispel Seed.

But if you want to go that way, the rules state simply that those are only examples of spells listed that STILL need to be researched. Since by the rules of researching and creating epic spells you cannot invent a Superb Dispelling spell without all the perks of Dispel Seed and without any house ruled mitigating factors, the only Superb Dispelling spell Xykon can research is one that dispels Forcecage.

[sam79]

Great strip. Just...great. Before the update, I was pretty much torn on the whole Illusion/non-Illusion debate. When I say Reddie with his eyepatch, and not remembering the eye he lost, I thought, "Wow, real". Elan's song in the second panel made me doubt a little, but mostly made me laugh. When Belkar got toasted, I was still thinking it could be real, as I've long thought it will be Xykon who does for him. But when Mr. Scruffy was so causually and brutally snuffed out...then the pedulum swung. It had to be an illusion. Or at least, I was really hoping so!

(by the way, the art in the 6th panel is awesome.)

So when the Order started winning in the second page...yeah, pretty clear that it was not real! Great last frame.

(by the way, in Roy's list of people he's avenging, he starts with his Dad's master, but there is no mention of his master's son. I know the list is hardly exhaustive, but even so, worth noting, I thought.)