Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Jasdoif]

Suppose I don't believe the OP is set in stone, and do believe it should be amended if it's no longer adequate for its task.

If you accept Pious Spellsurge, or a Bead of karma (backed by limited wish, or multiclassing) - then nothing in the first post has been broken anyway.

The number of inconvenient situations "resolved" by positing special abilities or items or immediate-term houserules, with different ones chosen to solve different instances of the same type of discrepancy, is indeed a significant factor in my suspicion that the OP has become inadequate.

[Gurgeh]

I'm 100% on-board for assuming that intended-to-target-the-whole-party spells do exactly that, even if it violates their RAW limitations, and not reading anything further from situations where these spells are in play. They're plot conveniences that don't have handy alternatives, so it makes sense to treat them as such.

[DaOldeWolf]

All cases so far relate to spells that affect 1 character per 3 caster levels. It's one of those weird patterns I noticed.

We have
Shojo's wizard (Twice, edit: twice after)
Tsukiko teleport.
Durkon Windwalk.
And the much debated V Telepathic Bond.

All cases also deal with exactly 7 creatures. Caster level 18 for the teleport or 21 for the buff spells. All a bit more unreasonable high then we give these character. The wizard and Tsukiko are estimated at around 14. Durkon was 13 at the time and V is 16+.
Out of said examples, it's Tsukiko who got the item that increases caster level, Shojo's Wizard got a teleport specific prestige class and Durkon got a off-panel casting. Thrice the same problem, thrice a different solution.

Then again 3 Spells and 5 examples aren't a lot, so I highly doubt it is deliberately.

Wpuld this also apply to the vampire´s mass resist fire?

Edit:

I'm 100% on-board for assuming that intended-to-target-the-whole-party spells do exactly that, even if it violates of their RAW limitations, and not reading anything further from situations where these spells are in play. They're plot conveniences that don't have handy alternatives, so it makes sense to treat them as such.

Totally agree. It sounds like the best way to solve it. And there is precedence of this type of solution being offered in similar case. When it came to character´s strenght and flight spells.

[Yanisa]

Wpuld this also apply to the vampire´s mass resist fire?

Disclaimer: Although "Mass Fire Resist" doesn't exist, I am going to assume this is just "Resist Energy, Mass".

But no, not really. The spell affect 1 character per 1 caster level. I count around 15 affected vampires, which is high but not unreasonable as a challenge for the order.

However counting is hard and I am already guessing based on aura's with no visible vampire. Also it's hard to known how many vampires there total and the implication is that all vampires are protected. I did count vampires on a couple of other pages and this one has 17 in the third panel, without brother Sandstone. At least 1 vampire died die before the spell.
Also level 15 was the level we expected Greg to be, and Gontor was 13 at best. It would be weird if Brother Sandstone would be the highest level vampire from a story perspective. He gets killed and forgotten rather easy.

Conclusion: High level; yes. Unreasonable high; no. It might be a bit outside what we expect though.

[TooSoon]

Disclaimer: Although "Mass Fire Resist" doesn't exist, I am going to assume this is just "Resist Energy, Mass".

But no, not really. The spell affect 1 character per 1 caster level. I count around 15 affected vampires, which is high but not unreasonable as a challenge for the order.

However counting is hard and I am already guessing based on aura's with no visible vampire. Also it's hard to known how many vampires there total and the implication is that all vampires are protected. I did count vampires on a couple of other pages and this one has 17 in the third panel, without brother Sandstone. At least 1 vampire died die before the spell.
Also level 15 was the level we expected Greg to be, and Gontor was 13 at best. It would be weird if Brother Sandstone would be the highest level vampire from a story perspective. He gets killed and forgotten rather easy.

Conclusion: High level; yes. Unreasonable high; no. It might be a bit outside what we expect though.

We can't use a homebrew spell to determine is Rich is following the rules in certain instances dude.

Just for everyone's information, here are the rules of this thread as stated by the OP

...Q: Does The Giant use house rules?
Probably. But for the purpose of this thread, we assume that the comic doesn't, except where The Giant has explicitly said so, or where some event is clearly not possible by the rules. That is, we try to explain events in the comic within the rules as much as possible, and that means not leaving factoids out of this thread just because The Giant might not have followed the rules there...

So if everyone wants to change those rules, I'm open to it, but I'd like to talk about changing some other rules too and not just be met with selective silence from the guy in charge of this thread whenever we discuss these issues, because I feel some different/consistent standards are needed. If the rules aren't being changed then clearly V should be listed as level 17+ under them, and if they are the OP needs to be amended (following an agreement from posters here about the new standards the thread follows).

[Yanisa]

We can't use a homebrew spell to determine is Rich is following the rules in certain instances dude.

That is, we try to explain events in the comic within the rules as much as possible

I am really confused on your point here (shortened by me), it seems very contradictory and makes me feel bad for being too pedantic.

It's completely within the rule you mentioned (shortened by me) to assume all cases of "Protection from Fire" or "Resist Fire" are actually the 3.5 spells "Protection from Energy" and "Resist Energy". To avoid the pedantic "I cast Protection from Energy and choose fire for the spell", it's better for the flow of the comic and easier for the audience". No homebrew required.

If you disagree with that, we should assume more homebrew is in play, but I'm pretty sure that isn't your point.

[TooSoon]

I am really confused on your point here (shortened by me), it seems very contradictory and makes me feel bad for being too pedantic.

It's completely within the rule you mentioned (shortened by me) to assume all cases of "Protection from Fire" or "Resist Fire" are actually the 3.5 spells "Protection from Energy" and "Resist Energy". To avoid the pedantic "I cast Protection from Energy and choose fire for the spell", it's better for the flow of the comic and easier for the audience". No homebrew required.

If you disagree with that, we should assume more homebrew is in play, but I'm pretty sure that isn't your point.

If it was that spell I would expect them to say "Protection from Energy". That's the spell name. Since they said something else I assume it's a different spell. Either way it's moot though, as you said it's entirely possible to work as an ordinary spell within the rules. Beyond the reasons you just discussed, we also have no proof whatever that every single vampire was affected by the spell. We would never assume that for the protagonists without evidence, I have no idea why we should make such assumptions for some NPC vamps.

[Dion]

My suggestion, if there is a serious idea about changing the thread guidelines, is to have two explicitly separate sets of guidelines for the thread.

One set of guidelines might be “how do we discuss the possible ways RAW allow what we see in the comic to happen”.

The second set of guidelines might be “given what we see happen in the comic, what is the consensus for the class level, ability scores, and magic items of the party.”

These should be distinct because they’re two distinct things.

The first set of guidelines allow the pedantic and rule driven discussions we all love. For example, given V’s casting of TB, under RAW the. V is either lvl 16 with a +2 CL bonus, or lvl 17 with a +1 CL bonus, or lvl 18, or cast TB three times, or…

The first set of guidelines allows for actual right and wrong answers.

The second, separate set of guidelines is consensus driven. For example, given V’s casting of TB we know that there are many possible ways that could have happened (where one of the ways is that The Giant simply ignored the rules). The community gets to decide “which of these possibilities is most likely”.

The second set of guidelines doesn’t allow for right or wrong answers. It’s just opinion.

So, in the two sets of guidelines, TooSoon is correct that TB would require CL 18. This does not mean, however, that the community must accept by consensus that V is lvl 17 (since the community gets to choose among the many ways that effect may have been achieved, including “the Giant ignored the rules”,)

[DLcygnet]

Speaking of target limit rule breaks... assuming Sunny survives the fight, they are ridiculously powerful and have the following abilities as shown in 1241:

Eye Rays

The beholder shoots three 1d4 many of the following magical eye rays at random (?) (reroll duplicates), choosing one to three as many targets as it can see within 120 feet of it:

1(Elan) & 2(Scruffy). Charm Ray. The targeted creature must succeed on a DC 16 Wisdom saving throw or be charmed by the beholder for 1 hour, or until the beholder harms the creature.

3(Belkar). Fear Ray. The targeted creature must succeed on a DC 16 Wisdom saving throw or be frightened for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

4(V). Slowing Ray. The targeted creature must succeed on a DC 16 Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the target's speed is halved for 1 minute. In addition, the creature can't take reactions, and it can take either an action or a bonus action on its turn, not both. The creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

5(Haley's Bow). Telekinetic Ray. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 16 Strength saving throw or the beholder moves it up to 30 feet in any direction. It is restrained by the ray's telekinetic grip until the start of the beholder's next turn or until the beholder is incapacitated.If the target is an object weighing 300 pounds or less that isn't being worn or carried, it is moved up to 30 feet in any direction. The beholder can also exert fine control on objects with this ray, such as manipulating a simple tool or opening a door or a container.

6(Minrah). Sleep Ray. The targeted creature must succeed on a DC 16 Wisdom saving throw or fall asleep and remain unconscious for 1 minute. The target awakens if it takes damage or another creature takes an action to wake it. This ray has no effect on constructs and undead.

7(Durkon). Petrification Ray. The targeted creature must make a DC 16 Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature begins to turn to stone and is restrained. It must repeat the saving throw at the end of its next turn. On a success, the effect ends. On a failure, the creature is petrified until freed by the greater restoration spell or other magic.

To Be Determined (First two more likely):

8a. Disintegration Ray (or Serious Wound Ray). If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a DC 16 Dexterity saving throw or take 45 (10d8) force damage. If this damage reduces the creature to 0 hit points, its body becomes a pile of fine gray dust.If the target is a Large or smaller nonmagical object or creation of magical force, it is disintegrated without a saving throw. If the target is a Huge or larger object or creation of magical force, this ray disintegrates a 10-foot cube of it.

8b. Death Ray. The targeted creature must succeed on a DC 16 Dexterity saving throw or take 55 (10d10) necrotic damage. The target dies if the ray reduces it to 0 hit points.

8c. Enervation Ray. The targeted creature must make a DC 16 Constitution saving throw, taking 36 (8d8) necrotic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

8d. Paralyzing Ray. The targeted creature must succeed on a DC 16 Constitution saving throw or be paralyzed for 1 minute. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

8e. Anti-magic Field Ray. (Redundant and unlikely)

Welcome to "Who's Level is it Anyway?" - the narrative game where the rules are made up and the points don't matter!

I can wait till V casts Applied Phlebotinum before we say he's gained 1 level in 400 strips. I'm as patient as the IFCC.

[danielxcutter]

That’s 5e. In 3.5e beholders only have a limit to how many targets in a 90 degree angle they can shoot at once, which can be boosted by racial feats.

[DLcygnet]

That’s 5e. In 3.5e beholders only have a limit to how many targets in a 90 degree angle they can shoot at once, which can be boosted by racial feats.

It sounded like Sunny had the option to fire all 8 eye stalks at once, as long as the AMF didn't dispel the effects, but pulled a punch. That's a very high number of attacks/targets for somebody who seems to be the beholder equivalent of a 5-year-old (based on drawings posted in their cave and interactions with "Mom").

[TooSoon]

My suggestion, if there is a serious idea about changing the thread guidelines, is to have two explicitly separate sets of guidelines for the thread.

One set of guidelines might be “how do we discuss the possible ways RAW allow what we see in the comic to happen”.

The second set of guidelines might be “given what we see happen in the comic, what is the consensus for the class level, ability scores, and magic items of the party.”

These should be distinct because they’re two distinct things.

The first set of guidelines allow the pedantic and rule driven discussions we all love. For example, given V’s casting of TB, under RAW the. V is either lvl 16 with a +2 CL bonus, or lvl 17 with a +1 CL bonus, or lvl 18, or cast TB three times, or…

The first set of guidelines allows for actual right and wrong answers.

The second, separate set of guidelines is consensus driven. For example, given V’s casting of TB we know that there are many possible ways that could have happened (where one of the ways is that The Giant simply ignored the rules). The community gets to decide “which of these possibilities is most likely”.

The second set of guidelines doesn’t allow for right or wrong answers. It’s just opinion.

So, in the two sets of guidelines, TooSoon is correct that TB would require CL 18. This does not mean, however, that the community must accept by consensus that V is lvl 17 (since the community gets to choose among the many ways that effect may have been achieved, including “the Giant ignored the rules”,)

I'm open to debating this, but my feeling is that if we are going to lower the standard of proof to one of probability (as you suggest) we should do it in a way that let's us include more information, not less (e.g. V is level 17+, Xykon is level 27+, Tarquin is Epic, etc). It has grown harder and harder to update stat blocks on here, due to the Giant's growing disinterest in helping stat characters. We should react in a way that tries to address that, not in a way that makes it even harder to keep the thread functional.

[Yanisa]

That’s 5e. In 3.5e beholders only have a limit to how many targets in a 90 degree angle they can shoot at once, which can be boosted by racial feats.

I don't see that particular limit in the monster manual, besides the antimagic cone. As far as I read it, they work like ray spells. Beholder have all-around vision, so line of sight isn't a issue, and the range is 150 feet. Anyhow, we have another issue to determine any abilities of Sunny

It sounded like Sunny had the option to fire all 8 eye stalks at once, as long as the AMF didn't dispel the effects, but pulled a punch. That's a very high number of attacks for somebody who seems to be the beholder equivalent of a 5-year-old (based on drawings posted in their cave and interactions with "Mom").

Yeah beholder's can blast pretty heavy but Sunny is weird case. A normal beholder has 10 eye stalks. A gauth (lesser beholder) has 6 eye stalks. Sunny has 8 and falls in the middle of those too, even stating he has 8 rays, instead of 10.

Looking at the abilities;

The 10 abilities a normal beholder have:

Charm Monster (Scruffy)
Charm Person (Elan)
Disintegrate (Number 8 candidate)
Fear (Belkar)
Finger of Death (Number 8 candidate)
Flesh to Stone (Durkon)
Inflict Moderate Wounds (Too weak for number 8...)
Sleep (Minrah)
Slow (V)
Telekinesis (Haley's Bow)

Gauths have a different sets that barely match. Sleep, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Dispel Magic, Scorching Ray, Paralysis and Exhaustion.

So Sunny is clearly not a beholder, but a beholder inspired, homebrewed and legally distinct creature.

[Jasdoif]

That’s 5e. In 3.5e beholders only have a limit to how many targets in a 90 degree angle they can shoot at once, which can be boosted by racial feats.

I don't see that particular limit in the monster manual, besides the antimagic cone. As far as I read it, they work like ray spells. Beholder have all-around vision, so line of sight isn't a issue, and the range is 150 feet.

It's one of those "key detail for the group is mentioned at the start of the group entry, on a different page" things.

Eye Rays (Su): Each of a beholder’s small eyes can produce a magical ray once per round as a free action. During a single round, a creature can aim only two eye rays (gauth) or three eye rays (beholder) at targets in any one 90-degree arc (up, forward, backward, left, right, or down). The remaining eyes must aim at targets in other arcs, or not at all. A beholder can tilt and pan its body each round to change which rays it can bring to bear in any given arc.

(This is also mentioned in the corresponding Monster Makeover article on WotC's site.)

[hamishspence]

I don't see that particular limit in the monster manual, besides the antimagic cone.

It's in the "Eye Rays" section, for small eyestalks, on page 25, whereas the actual statblocks are on page 26-27.

"During a single round, a creature can aim only two eye rays (gauth) or three eye rays (beholder) at targets in any one 90-degree arc (up, forward, backward, left, right, or down). The remaining eyes must aim at targets in other arcs, or not at all."


If I remember rightly, in the novels, and possibly previous rulesets, they could aim all their eyes "up" - so a common strategy was to float upside down above the enemy and point all their eyestalks down. Exactly like Sunny appears to be doing.


EDIT: Swordsaged.

[shmeck]

Looks like V rolled a 1 😂 !
Slow Ray = Will DC 17 vs. V’s +17 Will save

[Gurgeh]

Will saves scale off Wisdom, not Intelligence, so V's will save is probably significantly lower than +17; their Wizard levels will give them at most +10, and their Wisdom is unremarkable - at most a +1 bonus. They'd need some pretty hefty item or feat-based bonuses to get the extra +6 or 7.

[danielxcutter]

+17 is pretty high for a class that doesn’t have a good save and either their main stat or some other huge bonus added to it.

[Yanisa]

It's one of those "key detail for the group is mentioned at the start of the group entry, on a different page" things.(This is also mentioned in the corresponding Monster Makeover article on WotC's site.)

It's in the "Eye Rays" section, for small eyestalks, on page 25, whereas the actual statblocks are on page 26-27.
If I remember rightly, in the novels, and possibly previous rulesets, they could aim all their eyes "up" - so a common strategy was to float upside down above the enemy and point all their eyestalks down. Exactly like Sunny appears to be doing.

My bad, easy to overlook I guess...

Anyhow, from the picture it's hard to gauge, but there slight bends in the eye stalks, and you can make 2 sets of 3 and a single odd one out. Maybe the rule is being followed, maybe not. Then again, Sunny isn't a Monster Manual Beholder anyhow.

Will saves scale off Wisdom, not Intelligence, so V's will save is probably significantly lower than +17; their Wizard levels will give them at most +10, and their Wisdom is unremarkable - at most a +1 bonus. They'd need some pretty hefty item or feat-based bonuses to get the extra +6 or 7.

This thread assumes no wisdom bonus for V. Besides that, it's pretty standard in D&D to have a cloak or vest of resistance and gain around 3 points, but we can't assume that. Belkar is the only one that has a confirmed +3 vest. There might also be spells in effect, I could name 2 spells for a +4 bonus total, but again we can't assume that. Only Haley has a confirmed buff that helps here.

Basically (close to) +17 isn't unreasonable, even with everyone's "low" ability scores, but clearly the order isn't that optimized and no one gets that close. Based on the first post of this thread:

V only has that +10 Will. (from lvl 16 or 17 wizard.)
Durkon has +9 Fort. (8 from lvl 13 cleric + 1 from con. )
Minrah has +9 Fort. (2 from lvl 1 fighter + 6 from lvl 9 cleric +1 from con.)
Mr. Scruffy has +9 will (4 from 8 Animal HD gained as animal companion, +4 from Devotation, +1 from wisdom. However Mr Scurffy's animal companionship has been debated before.)
Elan has +8 Will (8 from lvl 14 bard, might also have a wisdom penalty, but unknown.)
Haley has a +7 will (5 from lvl 16 Rogue + 2 from Heroine-ism)
Belkar has +6 will (4 from lvl 14 Ranger +3 from vest of resistance. -1 from wisdom)

Everyone had to roll lower then a 11 to fail a DC 17, which is very unlucky, but I have seen worse luck.

Also Sunny could have a higher DC then the Monster Manual...

[Doug Lampert]

My bad, easy to overlook I guess...

Anyhow, from the picture it's hard to gauge, but there slight bends in the eye stalks, and you can make 2 sets of 3 and a single odd one out. Maybe the rule is being followed, maybe not. Then again, Sunny isn't a Monster Manual Beholder anyhow.



This thread assumes no wisdom bonus for V. Besides that, it's pretty standard in D&D to have a cloak or vest of resistance and gain around 3 points, but we can't assume that. Belkar is the only one that has a confirmed +3 vest. There might also be spells in effect, I could name 2 spells for a +4 bonus total, but again we can't assume that. Only Haley has a confirmed buff that helps here.

Basically (close to) +17 isn't unreasonable, even with everyone's "low" ability scores, but clearly the order isn't that optimized and no one gets that close. Based on the first post of this thread:

V only has that +10 Will. (from lvl 16 or 17 wizard.)
Durkon has +9 Fort. (8 from lvl 13 cleric + 1 from con. )
Minrah has +9 Fort. (2 from lvl 1 fighter + 6 from lvl 9 cleric +1 from con.)
Mr. Scruffy has +9 will (4 from 8 Animal HD gained as animal companion, +4 from Devotation, +1 from wisdom. However Mr Scurffy's animal companionship has been debated before.)
Elan has +8 Will (8 from lvl 14 bard, might also have a wisdom penalty, but unknown.)
Haley has a +7 will (5 from lvl 16 Rogue + 2 from Heroine-ism)
Belkar has +6 will (4 from lvl 14 Ranger +3 from vest of resistance. -1 from wisdom)

Everyone had to roll lower then a 11 to fail a DC 17, which is very unlucky, but I have seen worse luck.

Also Sunny could have a higher DC then the Monster Manual...

Sunny is probably elite, my memory from playing 3.x is that making a monster elite added about +4 or more to all the DCs. +2 from a higher ability score, and +2 from a feat (IIRC called "ability focus" or something like that, it's in the monster manual).

If Sunny has any items that buff its stats, it could easily have a 24+ DC with no monster advancement or class levels or epic items or inherent bonuses, and at that point, what we see isn't that surprising.

[danielxcutter]

Sunny is probably elite, my memory from playing 3.x is that making a monster elite added about +4 or more to all the DCs. +2 from a higher ability score, and +2 from a feat (IIRC called "ability focus" or something like that, it's in the monster manual).

If Sunny has any items that buff its stats, it could easily have a 24+ DC with no monster advancement or class levels or epic items or inherent bonuses, and at that point, what we see isn't that surprising.

The elite array is a +1 CR(and frankly a character level gives all the benefits for the same CR increase so that's strictly better), but feats can be swapped around without touching the CR, and Serini can probably use a scroll, potion, or wand of Eagle's Splendor on Sunny anyways.

[Doug Lampert]

The elite array is a +1 CR(and frankly a character level gives all the benefits for the same CR increase so that's strictly better), but feats can be swapped around without touching the CR, and Serini can probably use a scroll, potion, or wand of Eagle's Splendor on Sunny anyways.

If you're trying to build a tough monster, elite array, NPC gear based on your new CR, and two levels of cleric are all only +1 to CR for any creature that doesn't already cast as a cleric (if it does cast as a cleric, then use Bard instead).

But just elite will up it by +4 or so, the rest is gravy.

[phrxmd]

Sunny is weird case. A normal beholder has 10 eye stalks. A gauth (lesser beholder) has 6 eye stalks. Sunny has 8 and falls in the middle of those too, even stating he has 8 rays, instead of 10. [...] So Sunny is clearly not a beholder, but a beholder inspired, homebrewed and legally distinct creature.

Not for the first time through, the first non-beholder in #32 also had 8 eye stalks.

[Yanisa]

Not for the first time through, the first non-beholder in #32 also had 8 eye stalks.

As well as the forum beholder avatar. However until Sunny we have assumed the amount of eyes was a stylized choice. Now Sunny shows he has less eye stalk powers then a monster manual beholder.

[b_jonas]

Now Sunny shows he has less eye stalk powers then a monster manual beholder.

I'm not sure Sunny showed that. Maybe she just doesn't want to kill Roy when he was already knocked out, there were no more targets available, and the rules don't allow her to target the same person twice.

[Yanisa]

I'm not sure Sunny showed that. Maybe she just doesn't want to kill Roy when he was already knocked out, there were no more targets available, and the rules don't allow her to target the same person twice.

True, but it would be a bit odd if Sunny had 10 abilities... and number 8 was the deadly one he and Serini don't want to use. Especially if we follow standard Beholder and one of the others is Finger of Dead or Disintegrate.

But yeah, it this point it's a lot of speculation. We don't know how close Sunny is to an actual Beholder.

[Quizatzhaderac]

So, I'm thinking that maybe Serini has climb? She's hanging by one arm comfortably/intentionally and that seems like the skill that would cover that.

[b_jonas]

So, I'm thinking that maybe Serini has climb? She's hanging by one arm comfortably/intentionally and that seems like the skill that would cover that.

She's a hobbit. Weighs 30 pounds, doesn't even pull the noose taut. She doesn't need much strength or a skill to hang on one hand, unlike a human.

[Kornaki]

She's a hobbit. Weighs 30 pounds, doesn't even pull the noose taut. She doesn't need much strength or a skill to hang on one hand, unlike a human.

Yeah but this thread is about 3.5 rules

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm

Which my read is you can cling to a wall with one arm without making any check at all.

You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand.

[danielxcutter]

I mean it’s one of those skills that can make rolls while untrained.