Scout Vs. Rogue

[Wraithy]

I've seen some arguments one this forum which involve one overpowered class (usually wizard) against an underpowered one (monks, fighters etc.)
and an argument about whom is better.

but what about more similar classes against each other? (not in any specific contest, but in general)

I present the scout and the rogue.
the scout can fulfill the requirement of its precision damage more easily, but the rogue has UMD, these are just two possible arguments.

however "which is better" is too vaig a question, so to make it more interesting there are four categories:
level 5: I'd say rogue
level 10: Scout seems the better of the two at this level
level 15: I have no idea
Epic: refer to previous answer

All of this relies on the feats and stats of the character, so as a rule of thumb I'd say keep the selection as generic as possible (feats like dodge, mobility, spring attack etc.)

[Fax Celestis]

The rogue wins because of UMD. The rogue can do nearly anything with that one skill.

[cupkeyk]

The rogue wins simply because he has more resources to be better. As a core base class, he gets access to splatbooks with PRC's, feats, skill tricks, magic items that cater to him one way or another. The scout has limited options and is confined to either an archer or a riposteer, if you use the cityscape enhancement. The rogue can be face, saboteur, twf flanker, debuffer, and whatever he wants if he is planned out well from level 1.

Rog still wins at level 10 btw. He gets his first special ability then, basically a feat no other class can access.

[PlatinumJester]

Rogue because they are more multi functional where as a scout works best out doors.

[CrazedGoblin]

Rogue because they are more multi functional where as a scout works best out doors.

The rogue just seems to beable to do things, other than sprint up to them run around them in circles, do it some more and hit them once for increased damage.

[Person_Man]

Rogues get much better support from the supplements. Savvy Rogue feat and Crippling Strike, for example.

I love Scouts, but most of their special abilities can be replicated with magic items, and Skirmish damage just can't keep up with Sneak Attack.

[Idiotbox90]

Both are well-made, balanced classes (discounting UMD), but the Rogue is better.

[dyslexicfaser]

I personally prefer Scout over Rogue, myself, but even I'd be hard pressed to prove that the Scout is better.

Scouts don't get UMD, which is pretty crippling. And as others have said, they get significantly less third-party support. They also can't open locks, though they've been Errata'd to be able to Disable Devices.

They are better at tracking, avoiding natural hazards, and generally surviving in natural settings. They're quicker on their feet, and their precision damage (while somewhat weaker overall) is easier to pull off, as well as boosting their AC. Mostly, though, they're better at gathering information through such things as spot/listen (i.e. scouting), blindsense, and such. I would say that last bit is the only area where scouts really excell over their rogue cousins, and it just doesn't make up for the loss of UMD.

That said, I'm still a Scout man at heart, though I am at a loss to say why.

[cupkeyk]

The precision damage is contestable. Rogues need only flank and get twice as much dice AND still be able to full attack. Scouts must move and is limited to standard action.

[KIDS]

Scouts are more self-sufficient, gain more class features, have some very useful ones (yeah yeah you can duplicate everything with magic items) and also don't forget the errata which gives them the deserved Disable Device as class skill. Overall, a Scout is a better example of class design than a rogue, a bit more balanced and less spread out over the power curve, but both are very close and balanced in regards to each other and the "average" power level. Both have their uses and deserve a place, it's not a contest...

[Riffington]

This doesn't answer the question, but I love characters who have Trapfinding without Disable Device.
Instantly, traps become puzzles. Instead of simply adding a Disable Device Roll to the Search Roll you already need to make, you now have to devise a way to get past the DM's evil puzzle of doom. Also the rest of the party gets to play too.
It's win-win-win.

[Neftren]

The precision damage is contestable. Rogues need only flank and get twice as much dice AND still be able to full attack. Scouts must move and is limited to standard action.

That can be negated with a Belt of Battle. Now I prefer Scouts, since you can get up to what, 12d6 with full Scout and then Highland Stalker levels? Now add the other 10 levels of the Order of the Bow Initiate for another, what 4d8 ranged damage? Now assuming we're playing say... humans. The scout has a 10 foot speed bonus on the rogue. So the rogue moves towards the Scout. The scout retreats, adds another 12d6+6d8 damage to his attack... I dunno, in a pure combat situation, a Scout will probably win from moving within 30 feet, firing a shot, then retreating with Shot on the Run. In a campaign situation, the Rogue probably wins in that case, since he's got a lot more options.

[Stam]

I think people are missing a couple of things here.

Specifically...Uncanny Dodge, gained at Scout level 2, and what it does to most sneak attack deliveries?

[Jarlax]

despite the similarities in their powers scout and rouge isnt a very fair comparison, rouge wins with little effort.

now Scout Vs Ranger is a tougher discussion.

[deadseashoals]

The scout's class features are superior (perma blindsense and freedom of movement to top it off), and it's actually got some decent PrC love in the more recent books. However, UMD is just too much.

So, how about a scout/rogue with Swift Ambusher? Everyone wins!

[cupkeyk]

I think people are missing a couple of things here.

Specifically...Uncanny Dodge, gained at Scout level 2, and what it does to most sneak attack deliveries?

Means he cannot lose his dex modifier, but he can still be flanked, a scout never gets improved uncanny dodge.

That can be negated with a Belt of Battle. Now I prefer Scouts, since you can get up to what, 12d6 with full Scout and then Highland Stalker levels? Now add the other 10 levels of the Order of the Bow Initiate for another, what 4d8 ranged damage? Now assuming we're playing say... humans. The scout has a 10 foot speed bonus on the rogue. So the rogue moves towards the Scout. The scout retreats, adds another 12d6+6d8 damage to his attack... I dunno, in a pure combat situation, a Scout will probably win from moving within 30 feet, firing a shot, then retreating with Shot on the Run. In a campaign situation, the Rogue probably wins in that case, since he's got a lot more options.

You are now talking epic levels. An epic rogue can wipe the floor with a scout. Ambush feats alone give the rogue enough options to maim, mutilate, hinder anyone. Rogue uses a sceptre of stun ray on the scout. Dances around his stunned opponent and skewers him before the stun effect wears off. If his str is a dump stat, ray of enfeeblement, escalating enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion. Wheee. UMD should be a class on its own.

Oh wait it is, its called an artificer.

[Person_Man]

despite the similarities in their powers scout and rouge isnt a very fair comparison, rouge wins with little effort.

now Scout Vs Ranger is a tougher discussion.

Ranger, hands down.

Full BAB. TONS of support from the supplements. Favored Power Attack and Nemesis. Assuming you have access to the Spell Compendium and a few other books, you get some insanely useful spells. If you can take FR material, Sword of the Arcane Order lets you memorize Wizard spells using your Ranger spell slots. And your animal companions, though fragile and not particularly useful at high levels, is essentially an extra party member at low-mid levels.